Creeds repeated w/o understanding

[OldReb]

Back when I was attending church (Methodist) the last time, they had us repeating various creeds during worship on a rotating basis. When I was young, it was always the Apostles Creed but they began to rotate to keep people from getting in a rut and just muttering without paying attention to the words.

So, anyway, I noticed there were some things in some of the creeds that I was not sure that we understood or would agree with if we thought about it. [I didn't object to any of them except the one that was new and sounded like NWO religion with too much secular stuff included.] These are all in the Methodist Hymnal (I don't have one here). I did not ask questions at church though because the church I went to, and in particular the adult sunday school class, did not like questions. They considered questions as a sign of lack of faith, but I never got the impression that Jesus felt that way!

I probably can't recall everything, but a couple of the issues were: saying that Jesus descended into Hell, and resurrection of the body. In some I think it also says Jesus was the creator of everything, but most of my fellow church goers think it was the Father only who created the universe, and don't even notice any contradiction. Well, that first one I doubt we can figure out. The explanations always seem to stray into what sounds like mythology with Hades and Elysian fields (the good side of Hades, possibly equivalent to Paradise but not Heaven). And I know some creeds have been modified to leave this part about Hell out. So maybe that one is not too big of a deal. Leaving it out is probably the best if we don't know or understand. I have no problem accepting that Jesus performed the creation, if He did; I just don't want to offend God the Father by saying it if it is a misinterpretation.

But the resurrection of the body phrase still is a big unanswered question for me. It has bearing on end times, i.e. resurrection of the dead at the rapture or Jesus' return (let's not start that debate here). Are we supposed to believe our actual bodies are raised back to life, or just our spirit/soul? And then, these same folks that recite the creed also profess to believe that we (our souls) go to Heaven immediately after death. Can it be both? If you are already in Heaven in spirit form, why would your body be raised at the last trump? Right now, I don't know what I believe; I would like to go straight to heaven, but there is plenty of scripture that points toward everyone being raised at the end.

I'm not likely to go back to this church, and if I do attend another church I would probably try to choose one that didn't repeat creeds they don't understand, if there is one like that. So, it's more just curiosity for now; but it does seem very basic to belief in salvation and Heaven. I'm sorry if my question is too tough or offends anyone, but this seems like a good place to ask. Just ignore it if it bothers you. Peace and blessings to all.

 

[BryanW92]

Church without small groups and/or adult bible study is usually just a place where people do what they're told in worship without much thought. After all, they just want to put in their hour and get back to their lives, right?

However, the people who invest their time and energy in bible studies and small groups often ask the questions and help to find the answers.

My church started saying the Apostle's Creed every Sunday about a year ago. I was preaching the second Sunday that we did it and the pastor had already told me that we would do it every Sunday, so I took the opportunity to work some it into my sermon that day. The pastor has done the same over the last year. In addition, I spent several weeks on it in my small group and my Sunday school class.

Some people might just read it and say it, but I think that quite a few in the congregation understand it.

 

[Tzav]

Back when I was attending church (Methodist) the last time, they had us repeating various creeds during worship on a rotating basis. When I was young, it was always the Apostles Creed but they began to rotate to keep people from getting in a rut and just muttering without paying attention to the words.

So, anyway, I noticed there were some things in some of the creeds that I was not sure that we understood or would agree with if we thought about it. . . .

I understand your point, but I do understand the use of the creeds and I don't say them. The first time I heard of them, I went home and studied them, wondering why they were thought to be useful. For one thing, regarding the "Apostles' Creed," they did not write them or repeat them.

If something needs to be quoted, are the Scriptures not good enough?

Be kind, now! I am new here, and asking a simple question on CF has already gotten me in trouble today! Thank you!

 

[BryanW92]

I understand your point, but I do understand the use of the creeds and I don't say them. The first time I heard of them, I went home and studied them, wondering why they were thought to be useful. For one thing, regarding the "Apostles' Creed," they did not write them or repeat them.

If something needs to be quoted, are the Scriptures not good enough?

Be kind, now! I am new here, and asking a simple question on CF has already gotten me in trouble today! Thank you!

There is nothing in the Apostles Creed that isn't scriptural. It is the summary of what we believe as Christians.

Scripture is the basis for our beliefs, but tradition, experience, and reason are part of our beliefs too. The Apostles Creed is scripturally sound. It is a good tradition. It is an experience shared by most Christians, spanning most denominations. And it is a thing of reason since it does summarize our beliefs so concisely.

 

[Tzav]

There is nothing in the Apostles Creed that isn't scriptural. It is the summary of what we believe as Christians.

Scripture is the basis for our beliefs, but tradition, experience, and reason are part of our beliefs too. The Apostles Creed is scripturally sound. It is a good tradition. It is an experience shared by most Christians, spanning most denominations. And it is a thing of reason since it does summarize our beliefs so concisely.

Okay. Thank you for your kind answer. I just wonder why Scripture is not used, instead of human words? Perhaps that will never be known, with regard to the Catholic church's reworking of the words in the creeds, but why not just use Scripture instead now? I'm sorry -- I just don't understand.

 

[jacks]

We don't recite the creeds at our church. Below is from The United Methodist site (FAQ) and gives their summary on creeds. HERE

"Unlike some churches that require affirmation of a strict list of beliefs as a condition of membership, The United Methodist Church is not a creedal church.

So why do we recite creeds during worship?

The United Methodist Hymnal contains nine creeds or affirmations. Only two of these (Nicene and Apostles') are strictly considered to be creeds because they are products of ecumenical councils.


The remaining affirmations are taken from Paul's letters (Corinthians, Colossians, Romans and Timothy) along with affirmations from the United Church of Canada, the Korean Methodist Church and the United Methodist Social Affirmation.

United Methodists are not required to believe every word of the affirmations. Church founder, John Wesley himself did not agree with a historic (Athanasian) creed, because he disliked its emphasis on condemning people to hell.

Affirmations help us come to our own understanding of the Christian faith. They affirm our unity in Christ with those followers who first wrote them, the many generations who have recited them before us and those who will recite them after we have gone."

 

[BryanW92]

Okay. Thank you for your kind answer. I just wonder why Scripture is not used, instead of human words? Perhaps that will never be known, with regard to the Catholic church's reworking of the words in the creeds, but why not just use Scripture instead now? I'm sorry -- I just don't understand.

Human words can be inspired too. Does your pastor give a sermon that is more than a scripture reading? Do you pray anything but the Lord's Prayer?

This thread is a recurring theme at CF, where someone asks about creeds and then begins this false dichotomy between scripture and "human words". I can't stress enough that scripture is our foundation, but tradition, experience, and reason are part of our Wesleyan beliefs too. This fear of "human words" is not Christian at all. After all, before Acts was scripture, Peter preached a sermon on the day of Pentecost that was much more than a reading of what was scripture at the time.

We are all given the Holy Spirit to help us to understand and interpret scripture. You could read the supporting scripture for each line in the Apostles Creed, but it wouldn't help people understand and it would actually run quite long so people would tune out long before they got to the "Holy Spirit" part.

 

[Joykins]

I'm pretty sure the Apostle's Creed is the one stuck in there during baptism/confirmation/receiving new members in the hymnal. That's pretty much the only time we say a creed. I haven't got a problem with the Apostle's or Nicene creeds--they're pretty barebones statements about orthodox Christianity-- but share Wesley's reservations about the Athanasian one.

 

[Tzav]

Human words can be inspired too. Does your pastor give a sermon that is more than a scripture reading? Do you pray anything but the Lord's Prayer?

This thread is a recurring theme at CF, where someone asks about creeds and then begins this false dichotomy between scripture and "human words". I can't stress enough that scripture is our foundation, but tradition, experience, and reason are part of our Wesleyan beliefs too. This fear of "human words" is not Christian at all. After all, before Acts was scripture, Peter preached a sermon on the day of Pentecost that was much more than a reading of what was scripture at the time.

We are all given the Holy Spirit to help us to understand and interpret scripture. You could read the supporting scripture for each line in the Apostles Creed, but it wouldn't help people understand and it would actually run quite long so people would tune out long before they got to the "Holy Spirit" part.

Thank you, Bryan. I am not one to trust someone's newer words as I do Scripture. I would rather read Scripture, or verbally agree with Scripture, any day. All the years I have attended where I do, we have been strongly admonished to never take the speakers' words but to research for ourselves to be sure what we heard is correct.

Your paragraph 2: Yesterday was my first day at CF, so whether this is a recurring theme or not is meaningless to me. Further, I ask because I work for a Wesleyan church, not because I attend one -- I don't. I am sorry that my question "is not Christian at all" to you. That is unfortunate. This is just not something I could find in the church's manual, so i asked here.

Well, thank you anyway!

 

[BryanW92]

Thank you, Bryan. I am not one to trust someone's newer words as I do Scripture. I would rather read Scripture, or verbally agree with Scripture, any day. All the years I have attended where I do, we have been strongly admonished to never take the speakers' words but to research for ourselves to be sure what we heard is correct.

Your paragraph 2: Yesterday was my first day at CF, so whether this is a recurring theme or not is meaningless to me. Further, I ask because I work for a Wesleyan church, not because I attend one -- I don't. I am sorry that my question "is not Christian at all" to you. That is unfortunate. This is just not something I could find in the church's manual, so i asked here.

Well, thank you anyway!

We research too. We read scripture. Listening to and hearing "human words" or "newer words" is not a bad thing unless that is all you listen to. Look at a guy like Joel Osteen. He's nothing but human words and I wouldn't listen to him under any circumstances.

But, the words of good preacher who is helping to bring the truth out of scripture for all to understand are good.

We once had an Admin Assistant at our church who was a member of a Bible Believer church. She got offended at what she considered our reliance on human words too and she quit one day while doing the bulletin. I forget what offended her so much but she practically ran away.

 

[Tzav]

We research too. We read scripture. Listening to and hearing "human words" or "newer words" is not a bad thing unless that is all you listen to. Look at a guy like Joel Osteen. He's nothing but human words and I wouldn't listen to him under any circumstances.

For sure!!!

But, the words of good preacher who is helping to bring the truth out of scripture for all to understand are good.

But I am sure you still make sure that they are speaking Scriptural truth -- right? For example, if the teacher at my place of worship says something I am not completely sure about, I look it up. You would do the same -- right? Where I . . . .

Sorry! Hours later, I just noticed that this is really messed up!

I think I intended to write that the person hired by the church should have done more research before taking the job, and it was more than rude to just walk out. As I have mentioned, I assist a Wesleyan pastor. Yes, there are things I do at my job that can be a bit irritating, like Christmas and Easter, but I have to remember that I once did both holidays and loved the L-rd. In my very early days, the church I once attended depended heavily upon me to do their halloween parties. I am not the H Spirit to convict anyone of anything; my place at my job is to help lift up Messiah in a church through my work, and I gladly take that place. Yes, that bothers some of my friends, but they are kind.

 

[Qyöt27]

I'm pretty sure the Apostle's Creed is the one stuck in there during baptism/confirmation/receiving new members in the hymnal. That's pretty much the only time we say a creed. I haven't got a problem with the Apostle's or Nicene creeds--they're pretty barebones statements about orthodox Christianity-- but share Wesley's reservations about the Athanasian one.

And to expand on this in a way, part of the reason the creeds exist in the first place was to have a summary of belief to combat perceived heresy and deviation from what Scripture would otherwise hold. The Apostles' and Nicene creeds are those barebones definitions of orthodoxy because they were the statements that actually helped to define what we know as orthodox Christianity. Most of the ecumenical councils were convened due to these squabbles over belief and were attempts to form a consensus on the given topic(s). Although one can probably argue that any of the councils post-1054 aren't really a consensus anymore and don't hold the kind of weight that the earlier ones did.

The same thing occurs when discussing the canon of the New Testament, which wasn't laid down in a more or less absolute form until the Council of Nicea, even if people did largely agree and rely on similar groups of texts before then. But there were differences, and even today you'll see variations of canon amongst the different branches (the most significant being between Catholic and Protestant, but also between those and the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox).

 

[BryanW92]

But I am sure you still make sure that they are speaking Scriptural truth -- right? For example, if the teacher at my place of worship says something I am not completely sure about, I look it up. You would do the same -- right?

Of course I would. But, this thread is about creeds. The Apostles Creed (and Nicene Creed) has been thoroughly scripture-checked and found to be true. If the pastor walked in and said, "I wrote a new creed last night and I want you all to stand and recite it today", then I would be concerned.

 

[Tzav]

Okay. Thank you.

 

[circuitrider]

Qyot27 makes a good point about the cannization process. To some extend what books ended up being in the Bible was based on what the early church saw as fitting the beliefs of the Church as given by the Apostles. If a book didn't match the teaching of Jesus and the Church it didn't get in.

So early creeds or ideas that ended up in the early creeds ended up effecting what we consider to be scripture today. The Bible didn't just drop out of heaven with the 66 books bound together. The Church had to decide what books it believed were inspired and what books were not.