Creeds and Creedal Variants, and Episcopal Eucharistic Prayers

PloverWing · Jan 19, 2022

The Liturgist said:
Archbishop sounds cooler!

Perhaps so. I don't have a strong preference for which title the Primate of our church holds.

I will say, though, that the idea of a Presiding Bishop, who is thought of as first among equals, and who is elected to a fixed-length term, is very consistent with American sensibilities.

Paidiske · Jan 19, 2022

The Liturgist said:
That’s horrible behavior. Had you done anything that could have set them out to get you or were they just a lot of feckless, ill-mannered, undignified cretinous slubberdegulions unsuitable for ecclesiastical office? I mean, lets be clear, they were sluggerdegulions* because doing an inspection of your parsonage or vicarage as you Anglicans like to call it** is slubberdegulionly, and even if you did something dreadful, like had a pipe organ removed and sent to the scrap yard to make way for a large stage for your Christian rock band with electric guitars and drum kit, I still wouldn’t violate the privacy of your vicarage.

I am just trying to figure out what prompted them to descend from conventional slubberdegulionism to feckless, witless, repugnant slubberdegulionism?

I spent most of my three years there trying to work that out, myself. The conclusion I came to was that basically I had a couple of people who did not cope with anything they could not control, and they couldn't easily control me. If I were kind I might put that down to anxiety, but I'm not sure I'm that kind today.

Seriously, though, the concept of an inspection is not the issue. Here it is the norm for the house to be inspected annually, mostly to check if any repairs or maintenance are needed. The issue was them doing so without adequate notice, when they knew I'd been ill (they'd had a locum on the Sunday), and then turning that around into an attack on my housekeeping. As if the dishes are one's priority when one can barely get out of bed!

As to what to call the house... if you're a vicar, it's a vicarage. If a rector, a rectory. Curates generally have a "curate's cottage," (which will typically be smaller than the standard required for a vicar or rector). The usual standard here is that housing is provided for someone whose stipend equates to more than a 0.5FTE equivalent, and since distinctive (as opposed to transitional) deacons are very seldom paid at all, they are generally expected to figure out their housing on their own. There are issues about that, but that's a rant for another day.

On a side note, I'm not sure I'd want being archbishop to be automatically a matter of seniority. That's no guarantee of giftedness or wisdom, sadly.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 19, 2022

The Liturgist said:
That’s horrible behavior. Had you done anything that could have set them out to get you or were they just a lot of feckless, ill-mannered, undignified cretinous slubberdegulions unsuitable for ecclesiastical office? I mean, lets be clear, they were sluggerdegulions* because doing an inspection of your parsonage or vicarage as you Anglicans like to call it** is slubberdegulionly, and even if you did something dreadful, like had a pipe organ removed and sent to the scrap yard to make way for a large stage for your Christian rock band with electric guitars and drum kit, I still wouldn’t violate the privacy of your vicarage.

I am just trying to figure out what prompted them to descend from conventional slubberdegulionism to feckless, witless, repugnant slubberdegulionism?

The footnotes are in reverse order today because aside from being pedantic, I am also feeling even lazier than usual.

**what if you are the rector? Then its a rectory, right? But if you’re a mere curate, you get maybe a loft in the attic of the social hall? And deacons, I assume they are expected to sleep atop pillars while standing like St. Theodore the Stylite.

*A slubberdegulion is an archaic insult which fell out of fashion I believe sometime around the Congress of Vienna (1815), meaning a rascal or scoundrel with no redeeming social graces, so pretty much look at me to see an example of a gallant Slubberdegulion off to not save the day. Being a man of the cloth limits the insults available at my disposal, and also since I insist on following the ancient canons, I am compelled to resign if I ever strike someone or at any time commit adultery or homicide.

In the words of a clergyman friend of mine "they need to be taken behind the Church for some sanctifying".

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 19, 2022

Shane R said:
Well, I have one Spanish cut chasuble. It's Marian blue. A lovely vestment that has seldom been worn. It is the prescribed color for Marian feasts but I have not often been able to celebrate those. The rector of my old parish was very low church and quite Protestant and generally opposed to Marian feasts and saints days. I bent the rules a bit and wore it all through Advent. Most of our Spanish language churches use blue rather than violet during Advent. So I followed their custom with my Spanish vestment. By the way, it came from Catholic Liturgicals.

I've just ordered a set of Green Paraments from there! They are a great and economical resource.

The Liturgist · Jan 19, 2022

PloverWing said:
Perhaps so. I don't have a strong preference for which title the Primate of our church holds.

I will say, though, that the idea of a Presiding Bishop, who is thought of as first among equals, and who is elected to a fixed-length term, is very consistent with American sensibilities.

Indeed but you know, the only churches with more than one bishop where the highest ranking bishop is primus sine paribus and not primus inter pares are the Roman Catholic Church, and in a recent and disturbing sequence of events, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, wherein the Metropolitan of Bursa has published articles claiming the Ecumenical Patriarch is in fact primus sine paribus and has the power to rescind or dissolve autocephalous churches, when in fact Orthodox tradition has always been the opposite, that he is merely first among equals. I strongly fear that the Metropolitan of Bursa is the power behind the cathedra of the ageing Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew; in recent years, Antioch and Moscow have severed communion with Constantinople, which is a problem because most Greek Orthodox churches outside Greece are part of the EP, and Constantinople has engaged in moves that I can only characterize as petty, like trying to “Hellenize” the Russian Orthodox Exarchate in Western Europe, which became part of the EP after the death of St. Tikhon in a Soviet prison in the mid 1920s, who had sent instructions to the Russian Orthodox Churches abroad to ignore further instructions from Moscow (most complied and formed ROCOR; in the US a larger group of churches which included the massive Archdiocese of Alaska and converted Ruthenian Greek Catholic Churches who became Russian Greek Orthodox Churches, when the Latin Rite bishops told the Ruthenian bishops they would have to divorce their wives and become celibate in order to continue serving.

This grouping of Russians, Alaskans and Ruthenians became enlarged with Albanian, Bulgarian and Romanian dioceses after WWII; about half of the Romanian and Bulgarian churches in the US are in the OCA, and the other half are under their own bishops, while the Albanian Orthodox under blessed Fan Noli, who worked to preserve Albanian Orthodoxy in exile during the total ban in religion under the brutal communist dictatorship of Enver Hoxha, which left Albania the most impoverished country in Europe, while a catacomb church kept interest alive in the Old country, are under the OCA in the US, but a massive re-emergence led to the re-establishment of the autocephalous Albanian Orthodox Church in the early 1990s. The Moscow Patriarch granted autocephaly to the OCA around 1970; there are also still around 25 parishes in the North East under the MP directly. Since ROCOR and the MP reunited with ROCOR becoming an autonomous church under the MP in 2007, this hardly matters.

An autocephalous church in Orthodoxy is the equivalent of the Church of England or the Episcopal Church USA, in communion but completely independent in governance. An autonomous church is a bit like an autonomous province, the relationship being like that of Greenland to Denmark or Bermuda to the United Kingdom. However, in the case of the autonomous Russian Orthodox Exarchate, rather than be suppressed and put under Greek bishops, they became an autonomous part of the Moscow Patriarchate after some discussion of joining the Romanian church. The Exarchate represents the liberal “Paris School” of 20th Russian Orthodoxy, home to controversial figures like Fr. Sergei Bulgakov and Metropolitan Anthony Bloom and noted theologians including Georges Florovsky, Alexander Schmemann and John Meyendorff, whereas the conservative wing mostly existed in ROCOR, with leaders like St. John the Wonderworker, Metropolitan Philaret and theologians like Fr. Seraphim Rose, and Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, and also to some extent in the MP, with Vladimir Lossky.

The Oriental Orthodox Communion doesnt even have a primus inter pares at the communion level. And even though of the four autocephalous parts of the Armenian Aposolic Church, two of them are Cathlicosates and two are Patriarchates and there is an order of precedence, the Catholicoi and Patriarchs are autocephalous. And in every orthodox church, most bishops are equal, the sole exceptions being Suffragan Bishops, or “General Bishops” as the Coptic Orthodox Church called them, and Chorepiscopi, or Choir Bishops, who are glorified archpriests who can perform limited episcopal functions, like ordain readers, but who cannot ordain priests, deacons or bishops.

There is a story from the Coptic Orthodox Church which I love. The (Coptic Orthodox) Pope (of Alexandria) showed up to concelebrate a divine liturgy with an ordinary diocesan bishop. The bishop was late, and the Pope started without him. In all the Orthodox churches, and the Assyrian Church of the East, and some Old Catholic Churches, and the Eastern Rites of the Roman Catholic Church (and historically, the RCC itself, before the Roman pontiffs began claiming what the Metropolitan of Bursa is now trying to claim about the Ecumenical Patriarch), this is an egregious violation of canon law, since no bishop regardless of rank can intrude in the territory of another bishop. In response, when the diocesan bishop arrived, he removed the Pope’s mirtre and smashed it.

The Coptic Pope accepted this rebuke, because despite the difference in rank, His Grace the Bishop could have complained about the illict act of His Holiness the Pope to the Holy Synod (which depending on the church consists of some or all bishops; usually in the larger churches there is some kind of subset of the bishops that collectively decides pressing issues and reports back to the bishops as a whole). The Pope could then have been deposed or degraded to the rank of priest, since technically, Bishops, Archbishops, Metropolitans and Patriarchs hold the same office and are sacramentally ordained with the same liturgy, just like Priests and Archpriests.

So, I say, ACNA is doing the right thing by having an Archbishop, and the Episcopal Church should one up them with a Metropolitan, especially since Australia has what @Paidiske, one for each State? More than one, I think, right? But no Primus inter Pares, although if a ceremonial Primus inter Pares was created, and note I am not presuming to propose that for Australia, since it is fitting that as American ecclesiastical affairs are decided in America, Australian cclesiastical affairs are decided Down Under. I would set it up as the Metropolis of Canberra, the small size of the diocese compensating for His Eminence’s (or Right Reverend, or whatever the Anglican title is) nominal Canterburian equivalence. A Metropolis of Washington DC would work the same way.

This is actually the way the leadership of the Orthodox Churches is often structured, in that in that the Metropolitan sees of the Mediterranean are different from the ordinary Dioceses, in that they were located in provincial capitals, and had more people in a smaller area, but were often outnumbered by the totality of their province. And these Metropolitan sees had the first bishops, too, with the other dioceses initially being congregations, and before that, what became the Metropolitan sees were congregations, and there was no hard distinction in the New Testament between presbyter and chorepiscopi.

For this reason I accept Congregational polity and Presbyterian polity, as different early churches appeared to move through them, but I also incline towards eventual episcopality, with congregational self determination as a precaution. The congregations in the Russian Orthodox Exarchate in Western Europe had this, and none were compelled to either be dissolved into the Greek Orthodox church, or join the Moscow Patriarchate, even though the majority chose to do so; several stayed with the Greeks, I think 25 out of 191, 4 joined the Romanians, 4 joined the Bulgarians, 2 joined the Serbs, and 1 joined the Antiochians.

Paidiske · Jan 20, 2022

The Liturgist said:
So, I say, ACNA is doing the right thing by having an Archbishop, and the Episcopal Church should one up them with a Metropolitan, especially since Australia has what @Paidiske, one for each State? More than one, I think, right? But no Primus inter Pares, although if a ceremonial Primus inter Pares was created, and note I am not presuming to propose that for Australia, since it is fitting that as American ecclesiastical affairs are decided in America, Australian cclesiastical affairs are decided Down Under. I would set it up as the Metropolis of Canberra, the small size of the diocese compensating for His Eminence’s (or Right Reverend, or whatever the Anglican title is) nominal Canterburian equivalence. A Metropolis of Washington DC would work the same way.

I'm a bit hazy on some of the states. Certainly Melbourne and Sydney are metropolitical seats. Tasmania I know stands on its own as a bit of a peculiar diocese in Australia. I'm not quite sure how it works in some other places; I have a vague feeling that Adelaide is the metropolitical covering the Northern Territory as well, but I'd have to spend heaps of time on google trying to figure out the details.

We have a primate who is the president of general synod (our national governing body). The primate is elected and is currently the archbishop of Adelaide.

Aligning the primate with the seat of Canberra-Goulburn would be difficult for a number of reasons, not least that Canberra is a relatively small Australian city (its status as our capital notwithstanding), and its overshadowing by Sydney (the archbishop of Sydney is the metropolitan for Canberra) being a problem for most of the rest of the national church.

The Liturgist · Jan 20, 2022

Paidiske said:
I'm a bit hazy on some of the states. Certainly Melbourne and Sydney are metropolitical seats. Tasmania I know stands on its own as a bit of a peculiar diocese in Australia. I'm not quite sure how it works in some other places; I have a vague feeling that Adelaide is the metropolitical covering the Northern Territory as well, but I'd have to spend heaps of time on google trying to figure out the details.

We have a primate who is the president of general synod (our national governing body). The primate is elected and is currently the archbishop of Adelaide.

Aligning the primate with the seat of Canberra-Goulburn would be difficult for a number of reasons, not least that Canberra is a relatively small Australian city (its status as our capital notwithstanding), and its overshadowing by Sydney (the archbishop of Sydney is the metropolitan for Canberra) being a problem for most of the rest of the national church.

Very interesting. I was of course using your church as a hypothetical to explain why the Episcopal Church needs to follow the example od its new shall we say companion, ACNA, and upgrade the title of the Presiding Bishop. Also by the way I inadvertantly libeled ACNA; actually the 2019 BCP, following Episcopalian tradition, is in the public domain, however, for expediency, they used the New Coverdale Psalter which aligns better with the more literal, less dynamically equivalent text of the 2019 book than the Rite II Psalter in the 1979 BCP, but the New Coverdale Psalter is under copyright.

I myself believe churches should be immune from copyright restrictions; I strongly suspect the First Amendment overrides intellectual property rights in the US and only the major Christian music publishers, whose music I generally don’t want to hear, as only a handful of chorales from the 20th century, relatively speaking, I would use, and I would happily throw money at the estates or Herbert Howells or George Dyson or Healey Willam, my congregations are so far from being able to sing Rise Up My Love, My Fair One or Take Him Earth for Cherishing.

By the way, those two anthems, which express the hope of resurrection, were both written, by Willan* and Howells respectively on the occasion of the death of their young sons. Isn’t that just heartbreaking? Yet there is hope in the Gospel of our Lord, which is why I wish we could sing them.

Continuing this theme, also under copyright, possibly, but expiring soon, as it dates from the 1930s, is also an American hymn, a chorale in the Luther-Wesley tradition called “I serve a risen savior” traditionally sung on Eastern Sunday, which is a confession of faith in the Resurrection of our Lord composed by an American for the benefit of a friend who doubted the resurrection as a historical event or possibility.

* @MarkRohfrietsch you’ve heard of Healey Willan, perhaps even used him? I regard his work as the apex of Canadian ecclesiastical music, to date. Ironically the best recording of it I have found in use at a service was one of his mass settings in use at a Lutheran church in Toronto; being Anglo Catholic aside from his settings of the Anglican divine office, which Lutherans can also use, his work more easily adapts to Lutheran use than that of many Anglican parishes, since it is very much a setting of the Latin Mass in the pattern of Bach or Luther, basically the pre-Tridentine Roman Rite with the Canon and other material removed (pointlessly, in my opinion; I love Luther but his approach to liturgics was hit or miss, unlike Cranmer, who was consistently good, but lacking the flourishes of brilliance or the frustrating omissions of Luther’s liturgical corpus...and yes in the space of these two parentheses I did just risk offending 160 million Christians in two denominational families in the interests of objective comparison of 16th century Anaphoras, but the Eucharist is important and how we pray it is important, which is why some forms of liturgical experimentation like the Anaphora of Cain and the Anaphora in honor of the Millenium Development Goals of the United Nations, used by St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco, really bother me ).

My actual opinion is the Anglican communion service is preferable to the Lutheran mass insofar as it contains an anaphora and in the US and Scotland, an epiclesis, but Luther deleting the Roman canon made no difference since as I noted earlier Roman Rite priests prayed it silently, or in a low voice. But if he had, I don’t know, maybe obtained the translation of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom that Thomas Cranmer had access to, and used that anaphora, which the Ukrainian Lutheran Church actually does, in modified form, with references to a sacrifice removed, even though the wording in dispute is a “rational and bloodless sacrifice” “a mercy of peace, an offering of praise” and “thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all” and the Lutheran doctrine of the Divine Liturgy as something God does for us, as Gottesdienst, which translated literally means God’s Service, is explicitly contained in the start of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom when the deacon says to the priest in the altar “It is time for the Lord to act.” In fact I think the text of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom need not to have been modified by the Ukrainians at all, and you’re already using the Great Litany, sans the Mariological devotion, but, since we know Luther was a fan of that and its not an intercession, even that should be fine.

One liturgy which I expect you would not want to use in a Lutheran church is the Ethiopian Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. Mary, which is packed with intercessory prayers to the Theotokos, to the extent that the first time I read it, for a moment I thought the Anaphora, the Eucharistic Prayer, was addressed to Mary, which startled me, but then I realized I had skipped a page. But that, plus the fact that an Ethiopian Orthodox liturgy requires at least two priests and five deacons, plus a number of debteras (cantors), and takes up to six hours, and I would guess that the greater number of Lutherans, and Luther himself, would not be pleasantly surprised if a Lutheran parish decided to switch to that format one Sunday morning.

(also Enoch, which was, I was taught, the reason Luther wanted to delete the Epistle of Jude, is, as I like to point out, canonical in the Ethiopian church)

The Liturgist · Jan 20, 2022

By the way, the extended duration of the footnote in the preceding post was in part due to my mind needing to reset from a burst of tears when I realized Healey Willan and Herbert Howells had written their two most beautiful anthems on the occasion of the death of their sons, which is so sad, and the resurrection gives me tears of joy, so if the segue seems incongruous, that’s why. I have trouble, as I mentioned before, not having tears visible on my face on occasion when preaching, but much of our faith is difficult to face with absolute equanimity. The retired dean of the Episcopal Cathedral in Montana I saw preach on a recent vacation I felt enormous affinity for because, aside from his obvious high churchmanship and enormously dignified Eucharistic consecration in an Anglo Catholic way in what otherwise was a very low church parish, using Eucharistic Prayer B, no less, which this thread was posted to fume about, he became emotional because the topic of his sermon was the Holy Innocents and how their martyrdom is tragically reflected by the continuing mistreatment of children in our society.

PloverWing · Jan 20, 2022

The Liturgist said:
I would set it up as the Metropolis of Canberra, the small size of the diocese compensating for His Eminence’s (or Right Reverend, or whatever the Anglican title is) nominal Canterburian equivalence. A Metropolis of Washington DC would work the same way.

I didn't catch this detail until I read Paidiske's reply. The Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church is not the bishop of any diocese. The bishop of DC is a separate person from the Presiding Bishop. Making the Presiding Bishop also the bishop of a diocese like DC would be a change to the church governance that's more significant than just a title.

(Reference: Presiding Bishop – The Episcopal Church . "Since 1943 the Presiding Bishop has been required to resign diocesan jurisdiction upon election.")

The Liturgist · Jan 20, 2022

PloverWing said:
I didn't catch this detail until I read Paidiske's reply. The Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church is not the bishop of any diocese. The bishop of DC is a separate person from the Presiding Bishop. Making the Presiding Bishop also the bishop of a diocese like DC would be a change to the church governance that's more significant than just a title.

(Reference: Presiding Bishop – The Episcopal Church . "Since 1943 the Presiding Bishop has been required to resign diocesan jurisdiction upon election.")

That explains why calling them Archbishop carries an otherwise unwarranted fear of them being primus sine paribus, a bit like the discomfort some of the Eastern Orthodox felt when Pope Benedict XVI decided he would no longer use the title Patriarch of the West, which implied a universal patriarchy to some.

Psalm 27 · Jan 20, 2022

We believe in one God,
the Father The Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten from The Father before all ages,
light from light, true God from true God,
begotten not made, of one substance with The Father,
through Him all things came into existence,
Who because of us men and because of our salvation, He came down from the heaven,
and became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit, and became a man,
He was crucified, for us, under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered [AND WAS BURIED],
on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures
and ascended to heaven, He sits on the right hand of The Father,
and will come again with glory to judge living and dead,
of Whose kingdom there will be no end;
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and life-giver,
Who proceeds from The Father, [And The Son]
Who with The Father and The Son is together worshipped and together glorified,
Who spoke through the prophets;
in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.
We confess one baptism to the remission of sins;
we look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.
Amen and Amen

The Liturgist · Jan 20, 2022

Psalm 27 said:
We believe in one God,
the Father The Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten from The Father before all ages,
light from light, true God from true God,
begotten not made, of one substance with The Father,
through Him all things came into existence,
Who because of us men and because of our salvation, He came down from the heaven,
and became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit, and became a man,
He was crucified, for us, under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered [AND WAS BURIED],
on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures
and ascended to heaven, He sits on the right hand of The Father,
and will come again with glory to judge living and dead,
of Whose kingdom there will be no end;
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and life-giver,
Who proceeds from The Father, [And The Son]
Who with The Father and The Son is together worshipped and together glorified,
Who spoke through the prophets;
in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.
We confess one baptism to the remission of sins;
we look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.
Amen and Amen

Glory be to God, I love that Creed. Without the filioque, however.

Psalm 27 · Jan 21, 2022

The Liturgist said:
Glory be to God, I love that Creed. Without the filioque, however.

I actually added the filioque I think these two versions say it best...
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But he, The Redeemer of the accursed, The Spirit of Holiness, whom My Father sends in My Name, He will teach you all things and He will remind you of everything whatsoever I have told you.
Weymouth New Testament
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send at my request, will teach you everything, and will bring to your memories all that I have said to you.

Luke 24:49
And behold, I am sending the promise of My Father upon you. But remain in the city until you have been clothed with Power from on high."
John 1:33
I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'
John 14:16
And I will ask The Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever--
John 15:26
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from The Father--The Spirit of truth who proceeds from The Father--He will testify about Me.John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; The Holy Ghost.
John 7:39
(But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye The Holy Spirit.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from The Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me:
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, The Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.
Acts 11:16
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with The Holy Ghost.

The Liturgist · Jan 21, 2022

Psalm 27 said:
I actually added the filioque I think these two versions say it best...
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But he, The Redeemer of the accursed, The Spirit of Holiness, whom My Father sends in My Name, He will teach you all things and He will remind you of everything whatsoever I have told you.
Weymouth New Testament
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send at my request, will teach you everything, and will bring to your memories all that I have said to you.

Luke 24:49
And behold, I am sending the promise of My Father upon you. But remain in the city until you have been clothed with Power from on high."
John 1:33
I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'
John 14:16
And I will ask The Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever--
John 15:26
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from The Father--The Spirit of truth who proceeds from The Father--He will testify about Me.John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; The Holy Ghost.
John 7:39
(But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye The Holy Spirit.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from The Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me:
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, The Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.
Acts 11:16
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with The Holy Ghost.

I agree with the Eastern Christians in rejecting the filioque at the Photian Synod, because while the Spirit was sent by Christ, He proceeds from the Father, who is the unoriginate source of the three uncreated and coequal persons of the Holy Trinity. I mean, as I see it the filioque is, to make us of reductio ad absurdum, akin to adding a clause that the Son was begotten of the Father and the Spirit before all ages. Which actually I am pretty sure the Sophianists, who worshipped a female Holy Spirit, which were led by the martyred Russian priest St. Pavel Florensky and his friend the great philisopher, and later archpriest of the Russian Orthodox cathedral in Paris, Fr. Sergei Bulgakov, who was anathematized by ROCOR (which broke communion with the MP on the orders of Patriarch Tikhon of Moscow and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople after the change in the calendar, but rejoined the Moscow Patriarchate, which just itself broke communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which coincidentally decided to shut down the Russian Orthodox Exarchate of Russian Orthodox cathedrals in Europe, like the one Fr. Bulgakov was archpriest of, thus most of that Exarchate became an autonomous part of the Moscow Patriarchate, like ROCOR.

Sophianism is kind of theologically...troubling, and what is more, it included a philosophical system intended (unsuccessfully) to win over the growing revolutionaries from Bolshevism and reorient a post-absolutist Russia. In this it was less than entirely successful, as the events of Red October (not to be confused with any fictitious submarine under the command of the late Sean Connery and the still living Sam Neill). However there is a lovely portrait of Bulgakov and Florensky before the former’s ordination, around 1913 I think, called The Philosophers, by one of their followers:

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 21, 2022

The Liturgist said:
Very interesting. I was of course using your church as a hypothetical to explain why the Episcopal Church needs to follow the example od its new shall we say companion, ACNA, and upgrade the title of the Presiding Bishop. Also by the way I inadvertantly libeled ACNA; actually the 2019 BCP, following Episcopalian tradition, is in the public domain, however, for expediency, they used the New Coverdale Psalter which aligns better with the more literal, less dynamically equivalent text of the 2019 book than the Rite II Psalter in the 1979 BCP, but the New Coverdale Psalter is under copyright.

I myself believe churches should be immune from copyright restrictions; I strongly suspect the First Amendment overrides intellectual property rights in the US and only the major Christian music publishers, whose music I generally don’t want to hear, as only a handful of chorales from the 20th century, relatively speaking, I would use, and I would happily throw money at the estates or Herbert Howells or George Dyson or Healey Willam, my congregations are so far from being able to sing Rise Up My Love, My Fair One or Take Him Earth for Cherishing.

By the way, those two anthems, which express the hope of resurrection, were both written, by Willan* and Howells respectively on the occasion of the death of their young sons. Isn’t that just heartbreaking? Yet there is hope in the Gospel of our Lord, which is why I wish we could sing them.

Continuing this theme, also under copyright, possibly, but expiring soon, as it dates from the 1930s, is also an American hymn, a chorale in the Luther-Wesley tradition called “I serve a risen savior” traditionally sung on Eastern Sunday, which is a confession of faith in the Resurrection of our Lord composed by an American for the benefit of a friend who doubted the resurrection as a historical event or possibility.

* @MarkRohfrietsch you’ve heard of Healey Willan, perhaps even used him? I regard his work as the apex of Canadian ecclesiastical music, to date. Ironically the best recording of it I have found in use at a service was one of his mass settings in use at a Lutheran church in Toronto; being Anglo Catholic aside from his settings of the Anglican divine office, which Lutherans can also use, his work more easily adapts to Lutheran use than that of many Anglican parishes, since it is very much a setting of the Latin Mass in the pattern of Bach or Luther, basically the pre-Tridentine Roman Rite with the Canon and other material removed (pointlessly, in my opinion; I love Luther but his approach to liturgics was hit or miss, unlike Cranmer, who was consistently good, but lacking the flourishes of brilliance or the frustrating omissions of Luther’s liturgical corpus...and yes in the space of these two parentheses I did just risk offending 160 million Christians in two denominational families in the interests of objective comparison of 16th century Anaphoras, but the Eucharist is important and how we pray it is important, which is why some forms of liturgical experimentation like the Anaphora of Cain and the Anaphora in honor of the Millenium Development Goals of the United Nations, used by St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco, really bother me ).

My actual opinion is the Anglican communion service is preferable to the Lutheran mass insofar as it contains an anaphora and in the US and Scotland, an epiclesis, but Luther deleting the Roman canon made no difference since as I noted earlier Roman Rite priests prayed it silently, or in a low voice. But if he had, I don’t know, maybe obtained the translation of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom that Thomas Cranmer had access to, and used that anaphora, which the Ukrainian Lutheran Church actually does, in modified form, with references to a sacrifice removed, even though the wording in dispute is a “rational and bloodless sacrifice” “a mercy of peace, an offering of praise” and “thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all” and the Lutheran doctrine of the Divine Liturgy as something God does for us, as Gottesdienst, which translated literally means God’s Service, is explicitly contained in the start of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom when the deacon says to the priest in the altar “It is time for the Lord to act.” In fact I think the text of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom need not to have been modified by the Ukrainians at all, and you’re already using the Great Litany, sans the Mariological devotion, but, since we know Luther was a fan of that and its not an intercession, even that should be fine.

One liturgy which I expect you would not want to use in a Lutheran church is the Ethiopian Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. Mary, which is packed with intercessory prayers to the Theotokos, to the extent that the first time I read it, for a moment I thought the Anaphora, the Eucharistic Prayer, was addressed to Mary, which startled me, but then I realized I had skipped a page. But that, plus the fact that an Ethiopian Orthodox liturgy requires at least two priests and five deacons, plus a number of debteras (cantors), and takes up to six hours, and I would guess that the greater number of Lutherans, and Luther himself, would not be pleasantly surprised if a Lutheran parish decided to switch to that format one Sunday morning.

(also Enoch, which was, I was taught, the reason Luther wanted to delete the Epistle of Jude, is, as I like to point out, canonical in the Ethiopian church)

Healy Willan; we have some of his stuff in our hymnal; St. Luke's LCMS in St. Louis use one of his settings of the mass during Gesema-tide.

Yep, we like him. I attended a service at St. Mary Magdalene (his Church) in Toronto when I was in College in the late '70s.

GreekOrthodox · Jan 21, 2022

The Liturgist said:
*A slubberdegulion is an archaic insult which fell out of fashion I believe sometime around the Congress of Vienna (1815), meaning a rascal or scoundrel with no redeeming social graces, so pretty much look at me to see an example of a gallant Slubberdegulion off to not save the day. Being a man of the cloth limits the insults available at my disposal, and also since I insist on following the ancient canons, I am compelled to resign if I ever strike someone or at any time commit adultery or homicide.

Shakespearean Insult Kit Website
Shakespearean Insulter

Thou paunchy tardy-gaited wagtail!

Psalm 27 · Jan 21, 2022

The Liturgist said:
I agree with the Eastern Christians in rejecting the filioque at the Photian Synod, because while the Spirit was sent by Christ, He proceeds from the Father, who is the unoriginate source of the three uncreated and coequal persons of the Holy Trinity. I mean, as I see it the filioque is, to make us of reductio ad absurdum, akin to adding a clause that the Son was begotten of the Father and the Spirit before all ages. Which actually I am pretty sure the Sophianists, who worshipped a female Holy Spirit, which were led by the martyred Russian priest St. Pavel Florensky and his friend the great philisopher, and later archpriest of the Russian Orthodox cathedral in Paris, Fr. Sergei Bulgakov, who was anathematized by ROCOR (which broke communion with the MP on the orders of Patriarch Tikhon of Moscow and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople after the change in the calendar, but rejoined the Moscow Patriarchate, which just itself broke communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which coincidentally decided to shut down the Russian Orthodox Exarchate of Russian Orthodox cathedrals in Europe, like the one Fr. Bulgakov was archpriest of, thus most of that Exarchate became an autonomous part of the Moscow Patriarchate, like ROCOR.

Sophianism is kind of theologically...troubling, and what is more, it included a philosophical system intended (unsuccessfully) to win over the growing revolutionaries from Bolshevism and reorient a post-absolutist Russia. In this it was less than entirely successful, as the events of Red October (not to be confused with any fictitious submarine under the command of the late Sean Connery and the still living Sam Neill). However there is a lovely portrait of Bulgakov and Florensky before the former’s ordination, around 1913 I think, called The Philosophers, by one of their followers:

Didn't know about the 'female' worship bit, no, no, no.
How did you know I'd think of Sean connery and Sam neil
You know me too well.

I can't deny what I believe, the filioque is there for me

Deegie · Jan 21, 2022

The Liturgist said:
I myself believe churches should be immune from copyright restrictions; I strongly suspect the First Amendment overrides intellectual property rights in the US and only the major Christian music publishers, whose music I generally don’t want to hear, as only a handful of chorales from the 20th century, relatively speaking, I would use, and I would happily throw money at the estates or Herbert Howells or George Dyson or Healey Willam, my congregations are so far from being able to sing Rise Up My Love, My Fair One or Take Him Earth for Cherishing.

I'm afraid I disagree wholeheartedly with the notion that churches should be immune from copyright restrictions. I believe that artists/creators of all types deserve to be compensated for their work. In the United States, there are some copyright exemptions in the law for worship services and I believe that Congress set the balance there appropriately. (In short, for those who don't know, churches can perform any song or reading during an in-person worship service without worrying about copyright, with only a few weird exceptions.)

Of course, it would make my life a whole lot easier if I didn't have to worry about copyrights. My church maintains six different licenses with three companies in order to be able to do the things which are not exempted, like reproducing music and livestreaming it. I probably spend over an hour a week verifying that we can use each piece of text and music in the service, reporting it to the appropriate licensing service, and then making sure the credits are all correct in the bulletins and livestream graphics. Heck, even the hold music for our telephone system is copyrighted and requires some research and effort when we change it periodically. But I feel like it's a good use of my time because it is the moral thing to do.

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