ThomasMann

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I'm not sure where I stand on this. That is why I would like to hear what others think. I am somewhat leaning more towards Credobaptism because:

  1. There is no explicit mention of a baby being baptized in the NT
  2. No early church writings say anything about pedobaptism. To the contrary, they only talk about credobaptism. It seems the practice starts to become more common at the end of the second century/beginning of thrid century (Hippolytus, Origen, Cyprian)
 

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I'm not sure where I stand on this. That is why I would like to hear what others think. I am somewhat leaning more towards Credobaptism because:

  1. There is no explicit mention of a baby being baptized in the NT
  2. No early church writings say anything about pedobaptism. To the contrary, they only talk about credobaptism. It seems the practice starts to become more common at the end of the second century/beginning of thrid century (Hippolytus, Origen, Cyprian)

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:39 “For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

“He came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . ." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 189 AD

“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” Origen, Commentaries on Romans 248 AD
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Baptism is very important if we recall that, one must be born again and the old churches tie water baptism with receiving Christ and being born again. But people relying on their infant baptism for salvation are not yet born again, for they must make the decision for themselves.
 
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JSRG

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I'm not sure where I stand on this. That is why I would like to hear what others think. I am somewhat leaning more towards Credobaptism because:

  1. There is no explicit mention of a baby being baptized in the NT
  2. No early church writings say anything about pedobaptism. To the contrary, they only talk about credobaptism. It seems the practice starts to become more common at the end of the second century/beginning of thrid century (Hippolytus, Origen, Cyprian)
The difficulty I have with the argument of "there is no explicit mention of a baby being baptized in the NT" is that there is neither any explicit statement that baptism shouldn't be administered to infants. Yes, people will try to use various verses that they say indicates as such, but they still don't say it explicitly--at least, not any more explicitly than the verses that those who practice infant baptism appeal to as proving infant baptism! Indeed, as a rejection of infant baptism inherently necessitates an answer to the question of "okay, then when do we baptize?" it is notable that the Bible gives no explicit answer on that subject. There is no explicit statement by anyone that says "baptism should not be administered to infants, but should be deferred until <insert guideline here>."

So I feel this argument simply rebounds upon those that reject infant baptism, as the Bible provides no explicit affirmation of their ideas, nor any guideline that should be followed as to the question of when it should be done. Thus it really benefits neither side.

As for the lack of mentions in the earliest writings (first or prior to the late second century), that runs into a similar issue and also seems to rebound and ultimately leave neither side better off. Again, if infant baptism is rejected, that means there must be some other time to baptize. But there is no description in any of them that I am aware of referring to such a thing, no reference to baptism being performed on the children of believers only after they reach the correct age, or any reference as to how to determine the proper time.

Of course, we should note that we are missing the majority of known Christian texts from the early centuries AD (erosion and all that), to say nothing of the many texts that we don't have that just weren't mentioned in the existing ones we still have. Thus the argument never should be "it isn't mentioned so they didn't do it", but rather "it isn't mentioned even though it should have been in writings we have, so they didn't do it." Is there a particular writing or section of a writing where infant baptism would have been expected to be mentioned had it been performed, but was not mentioned? That is the argument that must be raised, not simply an absence.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm not sure where I stand on this. That is why I would like to hear what others think. I am somewhat leaning more towards Credobaptism because:

  1. There is no explicit mention of a baby being baptized in the NT
  2. No early church writings say anything about pedobaptism. To the contrary, they only talk about credobaptism. It seems the practice starts to become more common at the end of the second century/beginning of thrid century (Hippolytus, Origen, Cyprian)

We certainly see an implicit recognition of the baptism of infants. St. Polycarp was in his 80's when he suffered martyrdom. According to the witnesses of his martyrdom, when Polycarp stood before the magistrate who condemned him, Polycarp refused saying, "For 86 years I have served Jesus Christ, and He has done me no harm, how then could I betray my God and King?" Polycarp's testimony seems to be that he had been a Christian since infancy. While this isn't an explicit witness to infant baptism, it is certainly an implied witness. For if Polycarp had been a baptized Christian his entire life, then he would have been baptized as an infant--born and baptized in the year 69 AD (he was martyred in 155 AD).

There's no explicit mention of the elderly being baptized in the NT. Nor is there any explicit mention of women being baptized.

The first mention of women being baptized aren't found until the 2nd century writings, such as by Hippolytus and others.

But we don't deny baptism to the elderly, or to women do we for these reasons?

We don't practice "androbaptism" because there are no explicit mentions of women being baptized. We readily acknowledge that when "entire households" received Baptism, this meant women as well as men, young men and old. We don't, on this basis, deny baptism to certain classes of people simply because of a lack of explicit mention--but that baptism is God's power and work for sinners through which He brings us into the Body of Christ because of the word of Jesus Christ, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" and the promises of God attached to Baptism, "Repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and this is for you and for your children, for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." Etc.

I think more important is that we don't see any resistance against the baptizing of infants and small children until Tertullian. Tertullian is the first person to say that children shouldn't be baptized. But his reasoning isn't that children are too young to benefit from Baptism, instead Tertullian knows Baptism benefits children, and in fact that is why he says they shouldn't be baptized. Tertullian argued that children shouldn't be baptized because he wrongly believed that if someone sins after being baptized then they will probably not be able to go to heaven. Tertullian wrongly believed that one, after being baptized, must remain morally pure and holy in order to be saved, and if one stumbles then they forfeit their entire salvation without hope of forgiveness.

And that it is Tertullian who says this needs to be understood: Because Terutllian fell away from the faith, turning to the heresy of the Montanists. And so when we read Terutllian we need to be very careful, because heresy crept into his writings, we don't know for certain which were even written after his becoming a heretic or before (and which were influenced by this heresy even before he joined them).

In fact, even after Tertullian's death there remained in Carthage and North Africa a sect of "Tertullianists" who, like the Novatians and the later Donatists, preached a grace-less moralism and denied the power of the Gospel to forgive and renew us.

So when our singular witness "against" infant baptism is Tertullian, it should be be cautionary for us. While some things Tertullian said and wrote are still good (which is why he is still included in works of the writings of the fathers) it should be read very carefully and with an enormous grain of salt.

Given that in Judaism converts to Judaism receive tevilah (ritual washing in a mikveh or ritual bath), and this includes children (even today when parents convert to Judaism, they also convert their children through the mikveh), it simply wouldn't have even been a question of whether children should be baptized in the early Church. It was a foregone conclusion. The first century believers would never have even had to ask the question of whether children should be baptized, because of course they should be. The precedent already existed in Jewish "baptism", and also in circumcision (recall what Paul says in Colossians 2 concerning our circumcision made without hands).

Which is why we don't actually see opposition against the baptism of infants until the Anabaptists of the 16th century. Every group that opposed it before them were outright heretics, Gnostics. Who did not simply deny baptism of infants, but denied baptism period. And denied the Lord's Supper. And denied the the Gospel, denied the word of God, and rejected Jesus Christ and His atoning death and His resurrection.

I had to reject Credobaptism, though I had been taught it in my youth, because it simply doesn't jive with Scripture, and it cannot be found in the faith of the Church down through the centuries. And I could not agree with the Anabaptists, who deviated from the faith of our fathers and mothers, and introduced innovations according to their personal opinions. While I admire some of the Anabaptists for their stand against violence, when they entertained eccentric, radical, and in many cases anti-Christian teachings they can't be treated as faithfulness witnesses of the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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  1. There is no explicit mention of a baby being baptized in the NT.
~That settles it for me~

Is there any explicit mention of any women being baptized in the NT? How about elderly people? How about the physically disabled?

Do you likewise consider it "settled", then, that women, the elderly, or the disabled cannot be baptized?

If not, why not? Why deny baptism to infants because it isn't explicitly mentioned in the NT but be okay with the baptism of other sorts of people that aren't explicitly mentioned? Why discriminate against babies? Why would you withhold Jesus from babies?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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sandman

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Is there any explicit mention of any women being baptized in the NT? How about elderly people? How about the physically disabled?

Do you likewise consider it "settled", then, that women, the elderly, or the disabled cannot be baptized?

As for women Yes, Baptized →( Act 16:14&15), and… indirectly there are several scripture that speak to it. Act 21:9, Phl 4:3, 1Ti 3:11&12, 1Ti 2:12, Rom 16:1, Eph 5:22

Galatians pretty much covers the gamut
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I think there is a lot covered under the time of ignorance, not just in the OT Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And there is much covered under 1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

We do serve a just God …right? And if someone is unaccountable do you think God just tosses them aside?


If not, why not? Why deny baptism to infants because it isn't explicitly mentioned in the NT but be okay with the baptism of other sorts of people that aren't explicitly mentioned? Why discriminate against babies? Why would you withhold Jesus from babies?
You are obviously referencing water baptism when it comes to infants...and that is dismissed by Jesus in Act 1:5. The only people who want to maintain water are those don't accept the fullness of spirit baptism.
But the bigger question becomes. If God didn't mention baptizing babies, what authority do you have to supersede what is or is not written.
 
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ViaCrucis

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As for women Yes, Baptized →( Act 16:14&15), and… indirectly there are several scripture that speak to it. Act 21:9, Phl 4:3, 1Ti 3:11&12, 1Ti 2:12, Rom 16:1, Eph 5:22

Galatians pretty much covers the gamut
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I think there is a lot covered under the time of ignorance, not just in the OT Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And there is much covered under 1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

We do serve a just God …right? And if someone is unaccountable do you think God just tosses them aside?



You are obviously referencing water baptism when it comes to infants...and that is dismissed by Jesus in Act 1:5. The only people who want to maintain water are those don't accept the fullness of spirit baptism.
But the bigger question becomes. If God didn't mention baptizing babies, what authority do you have to supersede what is or is not written.

I appreciate the correction concerning women specifically mentioned as being baptized.

However, the fact that you are rejecting Baptism (with water) out of hand, entirely, indicates that this conversation should probably not continue.

It's one thing to debate the meaning of Holy Baptism, or to even debate the validity of whether infants can receive it. But if one is going to do away with it entirely, then I'm not sure there is even anything left to discuss.

I wish you well, and pray that the peace of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit abide with you, that you may walk with God and abide in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit always. But I will not entertain such extraordinary false teaching such as this.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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sandman

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However, the fact that you are rejecting Baptism (with water) out of hand, entirely, indicates that this conversation should probably not continue.

You are right ...I appreciate your insight.
 
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The Liturgist

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You are right ...I appreciate your insight.

How do you reconcile your opposition to water baptism with the Nicene Creed? Because to the early church, baptism was with water and the spirit, because that’s what our Lord says. @ViaCrucis is extremely doctrinally Orthodox and if I were you I would take it to heart that he does not even want to debate the position you are advocating, which is vaguely evocative of early Quaker ideas about spiritual baptism and spiritual communion, but appears to lack the fairly sophisticated Quietist theology of George Fox (of course, Evangelical Friends have since implemented water baptism and the Lord’s supper).
 
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sandman

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How do you reconcile your opposition to water baptism with the Nicene Creed? Because to the early church, baptism was with water and the spirit, because that’s what our Lord says. @ViaCrucis is extremely doctrinally Orthodox and if I were you I would take it to heart that he does not even want to debate the position you are advocating, which is vaguely evocative of early Quaker ideas about spiritual baptism and spiritual communion, but appears to lack the fairly sophisticated Quietist theology of George Fox (of course, Evangelical Friends have since implemented water baptism and the Lord’s supper).

I think you know my stance of the Written Word…I believe we have gone over that before....
The Bible is my final authority. If any extrabiblical writing including creeds ….contradict what is in the Bible I’m hanging with the Word of God. There has to be a standard for truth …or anything goes, and for me the standard which all other is measured against is the Written Word of God

But.... to my knowledge ….unless they have change it, there is nothing in the Nicene Creed about water… I believe it states one baptism. If the inference you draw from that is water, that would mean the spirit baptism is non adherent….according to the creed….as that would make 2

There are ai believe 3 places where water was used in Acts.

*Act 8:36 With Philip and the Eunuch… it was the Eunuch’s idea.

*Act 10:47 With Pete and the gentiles. Act 11:16 Peter corrects himself…with the words Jesus spoke to them before being taken up Act 1:5.

*Act 19:3 With Paul at Ephesus.

Each one of those accounts are totally understandable given the transition that was taking place. And I know people try put water in places throughout the Epistles …But if God wanted water in there …it would have been in there.

Each of the gospels records John the Baptist’s words regarding spirit baptism…

Jhn 1:33, Mar 1:8, Luk 3:16, Mat 3:11
 
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The Liturgist

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For any person to qualify for baptism, he or she needs to believe in The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. For a clever child, she needs to be at least six.

It doesn’t say that in the Bible. Our Lord does say “Suffer the little ones to come to me.”
 
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The Liturgist

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There are ai believe 3 places where water was used in Acts.

Just those three places alone are enough to justify baptism by full immersion being the norm except in cases of medical neccessity, where affusion or aspersion is permissable.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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It doesn’t say that in the Bible. Our Lord does say “Suffer the little ones to come to me.”
Suffer them to come but, infants? They must be able to walk and discipline themselves to come to Him against nature.
 
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The Liturgist

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Suffer them to come but, infants? They must be able to walk and discipline themselves to come to Him against nature.

Again, it doesn’t say that in Scripture and no Early Church Father made any remark to that extent. That is why the Orthodox Church, the Assyrians, most Eastern Catholics, and my Congregationalist mission, and some Anglicans not only baptize, but confirm and communicate infants, as well as people who are completely mentally disabled.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Suffer them to come but, infants? They must be able to walk and discipline themselves to come to Him against nature.

Jesus is talking about infants and very young children. The word translated as "little children" is paidon, and describes a young child, infants, toddlers, etc. People were bringing their wee babes to Christ, and then His disciples were trying to shoo them away, but Jesus tells them to knock it off and to not stop the little ones from being brought to Him.

We still bring our little ones to Jesus, in the waters of Holy Baptism. That they might be blessed and know the Savior.

Jesus doesn't reject our little ones, for they are dear to Him.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Jesus is talking about infants and very young children. The word translated as "little children" is paidon, and describes a young child, infants, toddlers, etc. People were bringing their wee babes to Christ, and then His disciples were trying to shoo them away, but Jesus tells them to knock it off and to not stop the little ones from being brought to Him.

We still bring our little ones to Jesus, in the waters of Holy Baptism. That they might be blessed and know the Savior.

Jesus doesn't reject our little ones, for they are dear to Him.

-CryptoLutheran
Jesus laid hands on the little children, and an extraordinary person in the Spirit can also, and give them some grace. But they are not ready for baptism until they understand. To identify with Christ Jesus' death and resurrection, they must understand and accept it themselves. They must understand God, sin, righteousness and life and death.
 
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I'm not sure where I stand on this. That is why I would like to hear what others think. I am somewhat leaning more towards Credobaptism because:

  1. There is no explicit mention of a baby being baptized in the NT
  2. No early church writings say anything about pedobaptism. To the contrary, they only talk about credobaptism. It seems the practice starts to become more common at the end of the second century/beginning of thrid century (Hippolytus, Origen, Cyprian)
You're correct! There is no explicit mention of infant baptism, even among the families that were baptized.

Are you aware of the covenantal framework from which this doctrine (pedobaptism) is built upon? In many Protestant pedobaptist circles, such as Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Congregationalists, build their argument from a one-in-two administration of the Covenant of Grace. In contrast, Baptists see two distinct and separate covenant that are interwoven into the timeline of redemptive history. In other words, most paedobaptist interpret the Old Covenant and the New Covenant to be the same covenant under a different administration. Thus, upon this argument, as the children of Abraham was circumcised under one administration of the Covenant of Grace, then children of believers are baptized as covenant members under another administration of the Covenant of Grace, which by the way is the New Covenant. If children of Abraham have a share to the covenant blessings, then, they argue, proves that children of believers have a share in the covenant blessings. However, it is a faulty argument to begin with! If infants of believers are members of the Covenant of Grace, then according to Jeremiah 31, they should be regenerate and forgiven of their sins. I discussed at length with a friend on here a long time ago on this subject, if you search the tool bar.
 
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