Creations.

[paulm50]

Right now the focus is on Adam & Eve's state of maturity at the time of the Fall.

I want to make it clear that they were mature adults.

The fact that they were held responsible for their actions shows that God created them as such.

I define Embedded Age Creation as "maturity without history," and this supports my definition.

There's no such thing as "maturity without history,". It's one's history that gives us maturity.

Did god create them as babies, give them loving parents to raise them and instill the morals, ethics and common sense they needed to make wise decisions.

Which part of Genesis has this?

Or did he create them as adults without any of that and just told them not to do something?

 

[AV1611VET]

There's no such thing as "maturity without history,".

Not in this dispensation -- no.

The events of the creation week were a one-time series of events: not to be repeated.

It's one's history that gives us maturity.

If you say so; but not in Adam & Eve's situation.

Did god create them as babies,

No.

give them loving parents to raise them and instill the morals, ethics and common sense they needed to make wise decisions.

No.

God was their "parents."

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Which part of Genesis has this?

Which part of Genesis has what?

That God gave them loving parents?

No part of Genesis has that.

Or did he create them as adults without any of that and just told them not to do something?

Yes.

 

[Colter]

Eh? so you are saying that Lucifer didn't believe in the existence of God?

Yes, that is correct. In my theology Lucifer certainly knew his creator-brother, aka The Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, Christ Michael, but the Universal Father was a matter of faith for the created Sons of God such as Lucifer. Lucifer was a brilliant celestial administrator who fell in love with his own mind, betrayed his sacred trust, launched an ideological "war in heaven" rebelled against the rule of the Son in the Fathers name, a Father which he charged was fictitious, much like atheist accuse theist of. Lucifer dared to "fool the whole world" with his orgy of darkness and death. Atheism is a continuation of Lucifer's meme.

 

[paulm50]

Not in this dispensation -- no.

The events of the creation week were a one-time series of events: not to be repeated.

If you say so; but not in Adam & Eve's situation.

No.

No. God was their "parents."

So the parent didn't teach them well enough. Because they were crated without a History, without the 15 years of more of parental guidance. By an all knowing, all seeing infallible god. Who didn't understand how to create a person, give them free will and not be able to reason the consequences.

Of course the all seeing all knowing god is incapable of making a mistake, so it has to down to the woman. You really are clutching at straws here. Either god can't make mistakes, or he can.

 

[AV1611VET]

So the parent didn't teach them well enough.

Didn't teach them what, well enough?

"Don't eat that," means "don't eat that."

Some time ago I was at a family outing, and I sat my plate down on the bench next to me.

My niece, holding her plate in one hand and her drink in the other, started to sit next to me, and I said, "Don't sit there."

Whereupon she sat down.

Her defense was that I didn't mention the plate of food on the bench.

Now I could have told her, "Don't sit there. I put my food down there," but I didn't.

Did I make a mistake?

In the Garden of Eden, though, God did both.

He said, "Don't eat, or you'll surely die."

 

[paulm50]

Didn't teach them what, well enough?

"Don't eat that," means "don't eat that."

And they did, so he didn't teach them well enough.

Like you with your niece, maybe her parents didn't teach her well enough. As parents we have to take responsibility for offspring who have not had a firm history of learning. A body can be mature, the mind takes years to mature. That must have slipped god's mind.

 

[AV1611VET]

And they did, so he didn't teach them well enough.

Excuse me ...

He didn't have to teach them anything -- they knew it already.

All He had to do is say, "Don't."

It's modern-day scientists who don't understand it.

Not Adam & Eve.

Like you with your niece, maybe her parents didn't teach her well enough. As parents we have to take responsibility for offspring who have not had a firm history of learning. A body can be mature, the mind takes years to mature. That must have slipped god's mind.

Um ... she was 15 years old at the time.

 

[asherahSamaria]

Yes, that is correct. In my theology Lucifer certainly knew his creator-brother, aka The Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, Christ Michael, but the Universal Father was a matter of faith for the created Sons of God such as Lucifer. Lucifer was a brilliant celestial administrator who fell in love with his own mind, betrayed his sacred trust, launched an ideological "war in heaven" rebelled against the rule of the Son in the Fathers name, a Father which he charged was fictitious, much like atheist accuse theist of. Lucifer dared to "fool the whole world" with his orgy of darkness and death. Atheism is a continuation of Lucifer's meme.

That's a new one on me. Is this a popular theology?

I should add that you are redefining the meaning of the word "atheist" just to suit yourself.

 

[paulm50]

Excuse me ...

He didn't have to teach them anything -- they knew it already.

All He had to do is say, "Don't."

It's modern-day scientists who don't understand it.

So god creates a garden, puts a tree in it with something no one should touch, then creates Adam & Eve with free will, fails to teach them well enough, h did tell them they were just not impressed enough, and allows satan to add a serpent to tempt Eve.

And this isn't his fault. OK you stick to that story.

Because it's all fiction anyway, there never was a garden, Adam& Eve, tree, serpent, etc. It's another bible story to impress on the believers the need to listen to the priests. Who we all know from the earliest religions to those today, know what's best for the sheople.

 

[paulm50]

That's a new one on me. Is this a popular theology?

I should add that you are redefining the meaning of the word "atheist" just to suit yourself.

Believers have a problem that they can't be blamed for. The propaganda against people who don't follow their religion has been going on for 1,000s of years. Today Islam is tearing itself apart and away from mainstream, in the past it was Catholics pouring scorn on Protestants or anyone who wanted to break away from Rome.

Atheists are regarded as evil just for not believing in any god, much like the Barbarians, named by the Romans, they came in for a bad press for over a 1,000 years.

Are we evil, bad, ignorant, etc. Because we don't believe in an ancient story that has so many versions we've lost count. About gods and demons no one has proof of. Even satan, lucifer, Beelzebub, Belial, antichrist. All as real as Voldemort.

According to the devout they will answer yes, without looking at the facts. There are as many evil doers carrying a bible as those who deny the existence of a god. Even the Nazi's tried to create a religion, based on early Germanic tribes. Hitler saw the benefits of religion as a tool for evil.

 

[Colter]

That's a new one on me. Is this a popular theology?

I should add that you are redefining the meaning of the word "atheist" just to suit yourself.

No, it's not popular. Most Christians believe in 2 Gods, a Satan God of this world and the other God and then the Son fits in there somewhere.

We all have belief, we can't escape that.

 

[Colter]

And they did, so he didn't teach them well enough.

Like you with your niece, maybe her parents didn't teach her well enough. As parents we have to take responsibility for offspring who have not had a firm history of learning. A body can be mature, the mind takes years to mature. That must have slipped god's mind.

The creation narrative(s) of Genesis were written for a child like mind of illiterate Bronze Age sheep herders by the priests.

The prohibition wasn't a silly fruit tree.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because it's all fiction anyway, there never was a garden, Adam& Eve, tree, serpent, etc.

That's your prerogative if you want to believe that.

But at least get your "fiction" straight and don't blame God for what Adam & Eve did.

I happen to believe Humpty Dumpty is fiction.

But I would appreciate it if someone would correct me if I was going around claiming Humpty Dumpty sat on a horse, instead of a wall.

Just because you think a story is fiction, it doesn't mean you should go around changing the details.

 

[AV1611VET]

Atheists are regarded as evil just for not believing in any god,

Why do you care?

 

[asherahSamaria]

Believers have a problem that they can't be blamed for. The propaganda against people who don't follow their religion has been going on for 1,000s of years. Today Islam is tearing itself apart and away from mainstream, in the past it was Catholics pouring scorn on Protestants or anyone who wanted to break away from Rome.

Atheists are regarded as evil just for not believing in any god, much like the Barbarians, named by the Romans, they came in for a bad press for over a 1,000 years.

Are we evil, bad, ignorant, etc. Because we don't believe in an ancient story that has so many versions we've lost count. About gods and demons no one has proof of. Even satan, lucifer, Beelzebub, Belial, antichrist. All as real as Voldemort.

According to the devout they will answer yes, without looking at the facts. There are as many evil doers carrying a bible as those who deny the existence of a god. Even the Nazi's tried to create a religion, based on early Germanic tribes. Hitler saw the benefits of religion as a tool for evil.

"Atheists are regarded as evil just for not believing in any god," I've often wondered why theists dislike atheists particularly rather than someone from another religion who also doesn't believe in their god/gods (and in some cases are violent about it) but I think it's because atheists understand that there doesn't seem to be higher power out there and that we are in control of our own circumstances (as society/empathy/self control/ etc permits) and they think that the higher power is being usurped in some way.

 

[AV1611VET]

I've often wondered why theists dislike atheists ...

Do we also dislike ourselves when we say there is none good -- no not one?

 

[paulm50]

That's your prerogative if you want to believe that.

But at least get your "fiction" straight and don't blame God for what Adam & Eve did.

I happen to believe Humpty Dumpty is fiction.

But I would appreciate it if someone would correct me if I was going around claiming Humpty Dumpty sat on a horse, instead of a wall.

Just because you think a story is fiction, it doesn't mean you should go around changing the details.

Of course it's fiction.

"He didn't have to teach them anything -- they knew it already." Well obviously not.

He said, "Don't eat, or you'll surely die." Well obviously not. Adam lived to 930, Eve we aren't told about. Same with their children who went on to live very long lives.

The flaw in the story, if one believes it, is. Adam and Eve were surely a faulty model and it was obvious giving humans free will wasn't working and would lead to disaster. So god should've stopped there and got rid of Adam and Eve and started again. That would've resulted in a much better creation and we wouldn't have all the trouble we have now. So it's all god's fault for not starting again.

 

[paulm50]

The creation narrative(s) of Genesis were written by child like minds to scare illiterate Bronze Age sheep herders.

I corrected for you. It's obviously so flawed that to say a god inspired it, is an insult to god. It would of been very easy to write a more accurate story that was true and understandable by illiterate Bronze Age sheep herders. After all, their level of belief was 100%.

This is obviously how many of the creation myths were created and believed in so readily.

"Atheists are regarded as evil just for not believing in any god," I've often wondered why theists dislike atheists particularly rather than someone from another religion who also doesn't believe in their god/gods (and in some cases are violent about it) but I think it's because atheists understand that there doesn't seem to be higher power out there and that we are in control of our own circumstances (as society/empathy/self control/ etc permits) and they think that the higher power is being usurped in some way.

Now it's because we can point out obvious flaws in any religion. Back in the day people outside the tribe, community, nation's religion were the enemy. With something to steal, or to stop them stealing from you. What better way to send people into battle, than to say they're evil and need to be exterminated.

Or simply they represent opposition to the rulers. Kings and clergy always went hand in hand.

Look at the Middle East for a glimpse into Europe 500 years ago. There has never been a secular Empire, until recently. And the danger is someone very religious gets hold of real power.

 

[asherahSamaria]

I corrected for you. It's obviously so flawed that to say a god inspired it, is an insult to god. It would of been very easy to write a more accurate story that was true and understandable by illiterate Bronze Age sheep herders. After all, their level of belief was 100%.

This is obviously how many of the creation myths were created and believed in so readily.

Now it's because we can point out obvious flaws in any religion. Back in the day people outside the tribe, community, nation's religion were the enemy. With something to steal, or to stop them stealing from you. What better way to send people into battle, than to say they're evil and need to be exterminated.

Or simply they represent opposition to the rulers. Kings and clergy always went hand in hand.

Look at the Middle East for a glimpse into Europe 500 years ago. There has never been a secular Empire, until recently. And the danger is someone very religious gets hold of real power.

I agree with you here - but why atheists specifically as "even worse" than practitioners of a different religion. At least that's how theists seem to come across (I'm generalizing of course) - but I've noticed this for all adherents of different religions. There must be something that theists consider particularly frightening about atheists that doesn't manifest when they consider followers of other religions.

 

[AV1611VET]

Adam and Eve were surely a faulty model and it was obvious giving humans free will wasn't working and would lead to disaster.

So what should He have given them in lieu of free will?