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Creationists: What Was Wrong With The Dover Trial?

Audacious

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Both sides -- creationists and evolutionists -- got the chance to present their evidence in court. The evolutionists won, because if you examine creationist claims with the rigors of science, there is no evidence behind them; whereas there is plenty with evolution.

Let me put it this way: if creationism were true, you'd be able to prove it without the Bible, using science as a method of data-gathering and analysis.
 

AV1611VET

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Let me put it this way: if creationism were true, you'd be able to prove it without the Bible, using science as a method of data-gathering and analysis.
God called the earth into existence from nothing on the first day of creation.

He simply spoke and the earth appeared ex nihilo.

To expect evidence of that shows a misunderstanding of science.
 
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Audacious

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God called the earth into existence from nothing on the first day of creation.

He simply spoke and the earth appeared ex nihilo.

To expect evidence of that shows a misunderstanding of science.
The scientific method could prove this, or at least show evidence indicating it. Instead, we have loads of evidence for how the Earth formed, and the solar system.

Hint: it all begins with an accretion disk...
 
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Lucian Hodoboc

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Your whole argument is faulty because you based it on the faulty premise that science is the ultimate infallible epistemological means and that nothing can be proven without it. However, the very claim that nothing can be proven without science cannot be proven through science (it is a statement that belongs to philosophy, which is not a branch of science), so it's a paradox.

Furthermore, science claims that the only means of achieving knowledge is by using the capabilities of our brains, but it defines the brain as the end result of a mindless unguided process, so what reason is there to believe its capacity to tell us the truth?
 
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AV1611VET

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The scientific method could prove this, or at least show evidence indicating it.
I'm sure they would have done it by now if they could; but I'm convinced that the only possible way to show Genesis 1:1 empirically is for God to take someone back in time to that moment and let them see for themselves.
 
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Well...

There's the fact that the universe had a beginning, when the prevailing scientific model for centuries was an eternal universe.
There's the fact that the universe has an impressive array of precise, fine-tuned properties that are predicted by belief in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God, not by a random, purposeless universe.
There's the fact that every living cell contains an unimaginably complex code and specified, complex information and machinery again predicted by belief in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God, not by a random, purposeless universe, and not adequately explained by Darwinian processes.

Evolutionists resort to unobserved processes like spontaneous generation and unguided Darwinian macro-evolution to explain the gaping holes in their theory. The debate is far from over, and the evolutionists, especially the Neo-Darwinists, have not "won." There are plenty of Christian apologetics books out there that bring excellent scholarship to this debate. I suggest starting with Lee Strobel's "The Case for a Creator."

I don't know all the particulars of the Dover trial, but the case for creation is quite strong.
 
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pat34lee

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Both sides -- creationists and evolutionists -- got the chance to present their evidence in court. The evolutionists won, because if you examine creationist claims with the rigors of science, there is no evidence behind them; whereas there is plenty with evolution.

Let me put it this way: if creationism were true, you'd be able to prove it without the Bible, using science as a method of data-gathering and analysis.

There is no way to prove anything from the big bang to
stellar formation to the beginning of life with science.
All are extra-natural or supernatural.

How did energy begin, when the first law of thermodymics
says it can neither be created nor destroyed?
 
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AV1611VET

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I don't know all the particulars of the Dover trial, but the case for creation is quite strong.
The OP wants to know what was wrong with the Dover trial though.

If the Dover trial concluded there is no evidence for creation, then it came to the right conclusion.

But if the Dover trial concluded creation didn't occur, then it came to the wrong conclusion.
 
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pat34lee

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I'm sure they would have done it by now if they could; but I'm convinced that the only possible way to show Genesis 1:1 empirically is for God to take someone back in time to that moment and let them see for themselves.

Or we can accept that God was an eyewitness to his own
creation and he told Moses how it was done.
 
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Dawnhammer

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To expect evidence of that shows a misunderstanding of science.

I could accept that, but instead of just saying God did it they try their hardest to present any kind of evidence that would support their cause.

Answers in Genesis

Failing for aforementioned reasons. Why not just say it is a matter of faith and leave it at that.
 
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AV1611VET

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Or we can accept that God was an eyewitness to his own
creation and he told Moses how it was done.
I don't think our courts of law accept anything on faith anymore.

We're dealing with spiritual wickedness in high places, and the bench is no exception.
 
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Failing for aforementioned reasons. Why not just say it is a matter of faith and leave it at that.
No argument there.

The OP said:
Both sides -- creationists and evolutionists -- got the chance to present their evidence in court.

I'm curious as to what the creationists brought before the judge as evidence; so I think I'll go read up on this Dover trial.
 
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pitabread

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But if the Dover trial concluded creation didn't occur, then it came to the wrong conclusion.

The Dover trial concluded that Intelligent Design is basically a rehash of Christian creationism and consequently couldn't be pushed in schools lest it run afoul of the Constitutional law of the United States.

Or to be more succinct: it's against the law to push religious beliefs in public schools.
 
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The OP wants to know what was wrong with the Dover trial though.

If the Dover trial concluded there is no evidence for creation, then it came to the right conclusion.

But if the Dover trial concluded creation didn't occur, then it came to the wrong conclusion.
Oh, I understand that.

I just happen to believe that, while there can't be empirical evidence or proof of creation, there is still compelling evidence of it, some of which I listed in my previous post.

In the same vein, there's no empirical evidence or proof of the Resurrection, but the subsequent behavior of the Apostles, the exponential growth of Christianity, and the estimated two billion followers of a poor carpenter turned itinerant preacher all provide compelling evidence.
 
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Audacious

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Your whole argument is faulty because you based it on the faulty premise that science is the ultimate infallible epistemological means and that nothing can be proven without it. However, the very claim that nothing can be proven without science cannot be proven through science (it is a statement that belongs to philosophy, which is not a branch of science), so it's a paradox.
Actually, I would say that science is the best tool we have for data-gathering and analysis. It isn't the be-all end-all, of course, but it is an extremely valuable resource and has done a lot for humanity.

Furthermore, science claims that the only means of achieving knowledge is by using the capabilities of our brains, but it defines the brain as the end result of a mindless unguided process, so what reason is there to believe its capacity to tell us the truth?
I have no idea what this means.

There is no way to prove anything from the big bang to
stellar formation to the beginning of life with science.
All are extra-natural or supernatural.
Um... I believe the big bang has quite a lot of evidence for it within physics. You'd do better to bet for it than against it, at the very least.

How did energy begin, when the first law of thermodymics
says it can neither be created nor destroyed?
Not a relevant question in the discussion of evolution vs creationism. I believe scientists respond with "IDK" and then an educated guess, when you ask them how all this stuff got here. (They don't claim to be all-knowing.)

If the Dover trial concluded there is no evidence for creation, then it came to the right conclusion.
The subject was where the evidence lay; because it was about whether creationism could be taught to schoolchildren as science.

I could accept that, but instead of just saying God did it they try their hardest to present any kind of evidence that would support their cause.
"God did it" isn't an answer. How God did it, is. (Example: God created life as we know it using abiogenesis and evolution.).


The worst and dumbest site on the internet. I wish I was joking.

I don't think our courts of law accept anything on faith anymore.
Science has nothing to do with faith; it only bothers itself with objective data. Courts tend to be fairly similar, because that is the court's job.

\There's the fact that every living cell contains an unimaginably complex code and specified, complex information and machinery again predicted by belief in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God, not by a random, purposeless universe, and not adequately explained by Darwinian processes.
Darwinian processes have nothing to do with whether the universe has a purpose or where life came from. It's merely about how life continues, and is related.

How can you argue against something when you don't even know what it is?

Evolutionists resort to unobserved processes like spontaneous generation and unguided Darwinian macro-evolution to explain the gaping holes in their theory. The debate is far from over, and the evolutionists, especially the Neo-Darwinists, have not "won." There are plenty of Christian apologetics books out there that bring excellent scholarship to this debate. I suggest starting with Lee Strobel's "The Case for a Creator."
It's great that there are Christian apologists out there, but uh... there are very few scientists who deny evolution, and most of those aren't in the field of biology.

I don't know all the particulars of the Dover trial, but the case for creation is quite strong.
Not in science it isn't.
 
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Christie insb

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What ever happened to faith....the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I believe that God created the universe any way he wanted to but we are not supposed to go into the world and preach Intelligent Design or six day creation. We are to preach the Gospel.
 
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AV1611VET

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The Dover trial concluded that Intelligent Design is basically a rehash of Christian creationism and consequently couldn't be pushed in schools lest it run afoul of the Constitutional law of the United States.
Okay, thanks.

I'll check into it.

Intelligent Design is a joke; and if the Dover judge(s) equated it with Creation ... well ... as I said ... spiritual wickedness in high places.
 
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pitabread

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Intelligent Design is a joke; and if the Dover judge(s) equated it with Creation ... well ... as I said ... spiritual wickedness in high places.

Creationism. They equated it with creationism. Of particular note was that the textbook in question (Of Pandas and People) started out as a creationist textbook which was then revised for Intelligent Design.
 
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HitchSlap

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God called the earth into existence from nothing on the first day of creation.

He simply spoke and the earth appeared ex nihilo.

To expect evidence of that shows a misunderstanding of science.
And believing someone "simply spoke and the earth appeared ex nihilo" is a misunderstanding of reality. The bible is myopic, once you except this, you will see the world as it really is.
 
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Not in science it isn't.
Many prominent scientists posit the unseen, unobserved multiverse, parallel universes, panspermia, spontaneous generation, etc. as explanations for the nature of our universe and life on earth, and it's considered to be sober, reasonable science.

Other scientists go by what's actually observable - the precision of the universe and the specified, complex, purposeful information of life - and conclude there's an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God behind it all...but that's labeled "pseudo-science."

I know this is getting away for the Dover trial specifically, but I believe it's all ultimately related.
 
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