Creationists: The Gold of Ophir was Good. What of it?

[Assyrian]

It is difficult to glean the intent just from looking at this verse. Juve initially put an emphasis on relative quality. That sounds like an issue that could be clarified in the original hebrew. Maybe.

If you remember that neat part of the movie "Stargate" where they take define two points in space to yield a trajectory, it may be that this verse is just one point.

However, if God says something is good, maybe you just take that at face value. I suppose the idea of good for what becomes implied however. To the readers of Moses, maybe it affirms their understanding of what they did in building their own battery, as some call the ark -- not that I am biting on that idea. This first mention may be kind of one point with no direction defined.

However, if the ending point of history is corrupt money, now you have a rather interesting data point and direction and context for gold in its first appearance in the Bible.

The nice thing about the gold at the beginning of the Bible and at the end (streets paved with gold) is that they are just good, nice, beautiful, fun to have around, etc. All the gold in between is tribute, ransom, manipulation, with some ornamentation and offerings to God by a desperate people.

You can learn a lot comparing Genesis with Revelation. What is interesting is the next two reference to Gold in Genesis are 1) Gen 13:2 Abram returning from Egypt 'rich in cattle silver and gold' after pimping Sarai to Pharaoh because there was a famine in Canaan. Sarai got herself a slave girl there too, Hagar. 2) The next reference was very different Gen 24:22 where a gold ring and bracelets are used to win Rebekah as a bride for Isaac. In Revelation gold is used by Babylon to trade in wheat... cattle... slaves and the souls of men. Yet it is also used to adorn the bride of Christ the New Jerusalem Rev 21.

So the question is, is Genesis trying to teach us the ideal monetary basis for Egypt and Bablyon? Or does it teach us what gold is really good for,
Luke 16:9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You can learn a lot comparing Genesis with Revelation. What is interesting is the next two reference to Gold in Genesis are 1) Gen 13:2 Abram returning from Egypt 'rich in cattle silver and gold' after pimping Sarai to Pharaoh because there was a famine in Canaan. .

Good post!
Our Lord Jesus also mentions purchasing Gold that is refined in fire

Zeph 1:18 Moreover their silver, moreover their gold, not shall be able to rescue them in day of wrath of YHWH, and in fire of jealously of Him shall be devoured all of the land.

James 5:3 The gold of ye and the silver is cankered; and the rust/venom of them into a witness to ye, and shall be eating the fleshes of ye as fire. Ye hoard in last days.

Reve 3:17 That thou are saying that 'rich I am, and I have become rich and not-one need I am having'.
And not thou have perceived that thou are wretched, and forlorn, and poor, and blind, and naked.
18 I am couseling thee to buy beside of Me, gold, having been fired/pepurwmenon <4448> (5772) out of fire/puroV <4442>.


http://www.christianforums.com/t7458936-14/#post54510139
"for I am having 5 brothers...." Luke 16:28

Young) Luke 16:14 And also the Pharisees being lovers of money, were hearing all these things, and were deriding Him,

 

[busterdog]

You can learn a lot comparing Genesis with Revelation. What is interesting is the next two reference to Gold in Genesis are 1) Gen 13:2 Abram returning from Egypt 'rich in cattle silver and gold' after pimping Sarai to Pharaoh because there was a famine in Canaan. Sarai got herself a slave girl there too, Hagar. 2) The next reference was very different Gen 24:22 where a gold ring and bracelets are used to win Rebekah as a bride for Isaac. In Revelation gold is used by Babylon to trade in wheat... cattle... slaves and the souls of men. Yet it is also used to adorn the bride of Christ the New Jerusalem Rev 21.

So the question is, is Genesis trying to teach us the ideal monetary basis for Egypt and Bablyon? Or does it teach us what gold is really good for,
Luke 16:9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

All good points.

The original gift was of sufficiency, and even more, probably just for the beauty of the thing. People are mostly greedy because they don't believe that God is a provider or even a particularly good Father. Man's fist seems to tighten over time, at least relative the increasing human need as the population expands.

Historically, the greatest cause of poverty is war and artificial restrictions, ie, greed.

 

[mark kennedy]

I'm sorry but I'll have to sit this one out. I'll watch the tread with great interest since I get a kick out of it but I really don't think I can help with this one. Sorry....

 

[busterdog]

Good post!
Our Lord Jesus also mentions purchasing Gold that is refined in fire

Zeph 1:18 Moreover their silver, moreover their gold, not shall be able to rescue them in day of wrath of YHWH, and in fire of jealously of Him shall be devoured all of the land.

James 5:3 The gold of ye and the silver is cankered; and the rust/venom of them into a witness to ye, and shall be eating the fleshes of ye as fire. Ye hoard in last days.

Reve 3:17 That thou are saying that 'rich I am, and I have become rich and not-one need I am having'.
And not thou have perceived that thou are wretched, and forlorn, and poor, and blind, and naked.
18 I am couseling thee to buy beside of Me, gold, having been fired/pepurwmenon <4448> (5772) out of fire/puroV <4442>.


http://www.christianforums.com/t7458936-14/#post54510139
"for I am having 5 brothers...." Luke 16:28

Young) Luke 16:14 And also the Pharisees being lovers of money, were hearing all these things, and were deriding Him,

One interesting thing about gold and silver has to do with the way it is traded. Most "gold" is in the form of very vulnerable and often fraudulent paper commitments for the delivery of gold -- ie, it is cankered. Everyone knows what fractional reserve banking is -- 100.00 deposited means 10.00 stays in the bank and 90.00 plus is lent out by the bank. That means "leverage" of almost ten dollars in paper obligations for every one dollar in the bank.

In the precious metals markets, it was recently revealed that conspiracy theorists were right all along about the proposition that most of the gold and silver traded doesn't exist. In recent hearings, it was revealed that in precious metals, the leverage is 100 to 1. One ounce of gold for every 100 commitments to deliver said ounce of gold.

What that means is that if just a few of the big purchasers, say 2, 3, 4 percent, demanded delivery, the entire market would either 1. make a bunch of lawyers wealthy fighting about defaults; or 2. bring the entire market down because the buyers would understand that there is no metal for delivery.

So, when you speak of gold and silver being cankered, one idea is that this paper market is a paper tiger, if not a fraud. Metaphorically, it is cankered. This does of course offend my sense of literalism, and so I did not swing for the fence on making a direct translation of the cited bit of prophesy.

But, it is also true that as a system, the market is cankered. The point is that when you speak of money as you do in your quotes, you must of necessity speak of corruption, complexity and lies as a basis for how things really work. Also understand that to get really rich in the metals market, the paper market works best, not buying gold and holding. So, while gold may be a great way to save, the really greedy people are not buying and saving this way, they are in the paper market with all the 100 to 1 leverage.

If you take this notion of a paper gold market, add to it wholly greater orders of magnitude in complexity, risk/gambling, opacity, failure, profit and fraud, that is what the modern derivatives market is. They are built on instruments really for any type of commitment one can imagine. Gold, currencies, life insurance, whatever. The are so corrupt that the derivatives market seems to exceeds the GDP of all the countries on the planet, which is really an absurdity. The notional value of this market is several hundred trillion dollars. Is this something you want your government involved in? Well, Harvard lost a billion there. Greece was bankrupted by it (and other irresponsibility) Ireland? What say you Assyrian?

Think of what an ounce of gold represents by contrast. It is valued all over the world. Almost anyone will accept it (so far, and putting side US corruption in such matters between 1933 and 1972). It is far, far more difficult for that ounce of gold to go to a value of zero, as compared to these massive edifices or tranches of derivatives and other paper obligations. An ounce is of gold if far more obvious as to what it can do. The paper stuff is notoriously confusing and fraudulent.

And while there is always room for financiers and good bankers, the fact is that the human race at its greediest apex always tends toward this game of fraud the more tyrannical and corrupt the leadership becomes. Ordinary farmers, laborers, children, etc. often end up paying for such things with lives of poverty and disease -- thus the traffic in the souls of men. Unfortunately for us, to extend the Ponzi scheme, greater levels of corruption to regulate away competition and maintain the paper ruse. Jesus may not come back for hundreds of years. Who knows. But, you can right now see the roots and fruit fiat system, where the government simply imposes its paper system upon people by a mark of the beast.

So, the Bible is against greed. But, it is also against systemic fraud based on dishonest money.

Now. to get back to Genesis. Adam had what? Paradise. How is it that Adam could have wanted more? Didn't he have everything? One way our human race goes so wrong is not to value what we are given. Food. A good wife. Maybe some gold trinkets as an inheritance for the kids. Simple blessings received thankfully are at the polar opposite of this hedge fund system and really all the schemes of fallen man throughout history to get rich at the expense of others. The gold of Ophir was exceedingly good. But, man wants more.

 

[busterdog]

The

I left in the best part.


YouTube - Gold Dinar, Silver Dirham

 

[Assyrian]

If you take this notion of a paper gold market, add to it wholly greater orders of magnitude in complexity, risk/gambling, opacity, failure, profit and fraud, that is what the modern derivatives market is. They are built on instruments really for any type of commitment one can imagine. Gold, currencies, life insurance, whatever. The are so corrupt that the derivatives market seems to exceeds the GDP of all the countries on the planet, which is really an absurdity. The notional value of this market is several hundred trillion dollars. Is this something you want your government involved in? Well, Harvard lost a billion there. Greece was bankrupted by it (and other irresponsibility) Ireland? What say you Assyrian?

OK I'm not an economist here, but I'm not sure why you think a gold standard would prevent crashes, certainly if the economic system was different, that particular crash might not have happened in that particular way, but the economy is still vulnerable to greed and corruption, time chance and wobbling public confidence. The USA was on the gold standard when Wall Street Crashed bringing the rest of the world with it. Ponzi schemes are named after Charles Ponzi jailed in 1920 for fraud committed while the US was on the gold standard. Charles Dickens wrote about Ponzi schemes before Charles Ponzi. Britain was on the gold standard when the South Sea bubble went. When Spain conquered South America prices in Europe increase 6 fold over a century and a half because the European market was flooded with gold and silver form the Americas. If gold had any intrinsic value this would hardly be the case. Before that, gold was responsible for inflation because kings like to be able to produce more coins from the same amount of gold. Would gold produce give more transparency? I doubt it not unless all major business transaction were accompanied by security vans full of bullion. All I could see would be an increase in security vans being robbed. Then you have the problem of counterfeits dating back to the ancient world, Archimedes made his name trying to solve that problem, but he didn't have the problem of tungsten which is almost the same density as gold.

Googling the amount of gold of gold above ground it comes to an estimated $1.8 trillion but the world's GDP is, depending on how you calculate it, is $70.21 trillion, that is ignoring the value of fixed assets we already have. Do we bring the value of the worlds economy down to 1.8 trillion, wiping out 97.5% of its value? That would be our times worse than the Wall street crash. Of course what would happen is that the value of gold would have to inflate to meet the new demand and of course the filthy rich who have invested their savings in gold would just get get filthily richer. But what would give gold an intrinsic value 25 time its current price? At least now gold's worth is separate from the stock market and it gives people an alternative way to save their money, even if Jesus didn't recommend burying the gold coin in the back garden. But tie gold to the total value of the world economy and its value will collapse when the confidence in the next bubble collapses. And what happens when people start hoarding this gold? It is ok if they spend it and the world's GDP keeps turning over but the more gold is hoarded the less there is in the economy. Save you money in a bank and they lend it, or should anyway, but shove your gold in your vault and it is gone from the economy.

Luke 19:20 Another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your gold coin; I kept it hidden in a handkerchief.
21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take what is not yours and reap what you did not plant.'
22 He said to him, 'You bad servant! I will use your own words to condemn you! You know that I am a hard man, taking what is not mine and reaping what I have not planted.
23 Well, then, why didn't you put my money in the bank? Then I would have received it back with interest when I returned.'

 

[shernren]

I left in the best part.


YouTube - Gold Dinar, Silver Dirham

Ah, the irony of seeing a creationist believe that their comments are as divinely inspired as the Bible they comment on, and thus impervious to criticism.

The funny thing about currency is that, almost by definition, currency has no intrinsic value. Let's say that, instead of paper and metal coins, money was minted using bread. Quite apart from the impracticalities, the main problem is that the supply of breadmoney would always decrease, because bread is intrinsically useful, i.e. for eating.

Or let's say that scientists announced that they could make machines that would solve all the world's food, water and energy problems; the catch being that they would need to use 99% of the world's gold reserves to manufacture a critical component. In a flash there would be little gold left in the world, and it would not have any more value as a commodity, simply because there would be too little left of it to support any substantial trade.

If currency had any intrinsic value, it would be used for something other than currency. A country that used aluminum as a financial standard would devolve into a country running on bartering aluminum cans. Gold may be rare and paper may be commonplace but they both share the endearing quality of being entirely useless to a man stuck on a desert island, the Sahara desert, the Siberian tundra, or generally any place where there aren't other people stupid enough to ascribe value to something simply because they want to.

So why on earth would I want to withdraw my gold from any reserve? After all, if I leave it there, I get these wonderful chits of paper with which I can order around the entire resources of my multinational firms. But if I take all that out, I'm left with a bar of gold ... hmm, that would make a remarkably efficient paperweight. The whole reason why gold reserves are kept in vaults is because they're relatively useless outside those vaults.

All of which points to the fact that your eisegesis - that the gold of Ophir somehow represents God legitimizing a financial system based on intrinsic value - is about as useless as it is novel. We do have such a financial system, anyhow; ever heard of bartering?

 

[busterdog]

OK I'm not an economist here, but I'm not sure why you think a gold standard would prevent crashes, certainly if the economic system was different, that particular crash might not have happened in that particular way, but the economy is still vulnerable to greed and corruption, time chance and wobbling public confidence. The USA was on the gold standard when Wall Street Crashed bringing the rest of the world with it. Ponzi schemes are named after Charles Ponzi jailed in 1920 for fraud committed while the US was on the gold standard. Charles Dickens wrote about Ponzi schemes before Charles Ponzi. Britain was on the gold standard when the South Sea bubble went. When Spain conquered South America prices in Europe increase 6 fold over a century and a half because the European market was flooded with gold and silver form the Americas. If gold had any intrinsic value this would hardly be the case. Before that, gold was responsible for inflation because kings like to be able to produce more coins from the same amount of gold. Would gold produce give more transparency? I doubt it not unless all major business transaction were accompanied by security vans full of bullion. All I could see would be an increase in security vans being robbed. Then you have the problem of counterfeits dating back to the ancient world, Archimedes made his name trying to solve that problem, but he didn't have the problem of tungsten which is almost the same density as gold.

Googling the amount of gold of gold above ground it comes to an estimated $1.8 trillion but the world's GDP is, depending on how you calculate it, is $70.21 trillion, that is ignoring the value of fixed assets we already have. Do we bring the value of the worlds economy down to 1.8 trillion, wiping out 97.5% of its value? That would be our times worse than the Wall street crash. Of course what would happen is that the value of gold would have to inflate to meet the new demand and of course the filthy rich who have invested their savings in gold would just get get filthily richer. But what would give gold an intrinsic value 25 time its current price? At least now gold's worth is separate from the stock market and it gives people an alternative way to save their money, even if Jesus didn't recommend burying the gold coin in the back garden. But tie gold to the total value of the world economy and its value will collapse when the confidence in the next bubble collapses. And what happens when people start hoarding this gold? It is ok if they spend it and the world's GDP keeps turning over but the more gold is hoarded the less there is in the economy. Save you money in a bank and they lend it, or should anyway, but shove your gold in your vault and it is gone from the economy.

Luke 19:20 Another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your gold coin; I kept it hidden in a handkerchief.
21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take what is not yours and reap what you did not plant.'
22 He said to him, 'You bad servant! I will use your own words to condemn you! You know that I am a hard man, taking what is not mine and reaping what I have not planted.
23 Well, then, why didn't you put my money in the bank? Then I would have received it back with interest when I returned.'

Not sure why you attribute those conclusions to me.

The early currency cabals indeed built their power on two ideas: 1. issuing paper certificates for gold stored with them, and again involving the fractional reserve idea; 2. hoarding/monopolizing of gold coin.

The freesilver movement of the turn of the century was exactly motivated to use silver to increase liquidity when gold manipulation was creating depression. Silver competed with gold when gold was monopolized.

The gold standard is just a method to keep governments honest, among others. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Governments can debase their coins, as the Romans did and as monetization does now.

The paper shenanigans always go along with manipulation. But, that doesn't means that monopolizing gold doesn't go along with it also.

Much of the current debacle could have been avoided by a few basic policies: 1. audit the money makes to keep them honest, since tyrants and crooks abhor sunshine; 2. enforce the laws as written, which would have put Bernie Madoff out of business a long time ago and probably revealed his conspirators when in fact a multibillion Ponzi scheme results in only two prosecutions? Please; 3. regulate financial markets -- derivatives over four successive administration have not been regulated like stocks -- thus the wildly inflated notional values and fraud in the sale of these instruments; 4. require ethics -- as the investment banker for XYZ stock, how can it possibly be ethical to go short (ie, bet against) the stock, especially with the use of rumor, inuendo and other dirty tricks.

The issuance of the special drawing right seems to be intended on a kind of a gold standard now. But, the Bank of International Settlements, which issues them, is as closed to the Eye of Sauron as one could imagine.

I am not intending to give investment advice, but maybe that is implied. More important is the proper appreciation for commodities of any type as a gift from God, with gold being a special case. It contrast quite strongly with manipulative currency systems, and those systems are predicted by Scripture.

A number of economists have proposed issuing treasury bills instead of, as we have in America, Federal Reserve Notes -- ie, promises to pay a private bank. It would have the advantage of mitigating the power of unelected bankers and, theoretically, avoiding interest (at least in the days before the Yes and now the dollar carry trade). But, like any other system, a way to keep leaders honest becomes the challenge. If you are interested in the subject, here is one proposal for a stable treasury issued currency. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2I4e_RdEfU&feature=related

There is no gift of God that man cannot pervert. But, in terms of stability and value, gold in hand as a form of savings is quite unlike the treacherous financial instruments of human empires.

 

[Assyrian]

Not sure why you attribute those conclusions to me.

You seemed to think all our problems would have been avoided by sticking to a gold standard.

The early currency cabals indeed built their power on two ideas: 1. issuing paper certificates for gold stored with them, and again involving the fractional reserve idea; 2. hoarding/monopolizing of gold coin.

The freesilver movement of the turn of the century was exactly motivated to use silver to increase liquidity when gold manipulation was creating depression. Silver competed with gold when gold was monopolized.

The gold standard is just a method to keep governments honest, among others. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Governments can debase their coins, as the Romans did and as monetization does now.

The paper shenanigans always go along with manipulation. But, that doesn't means that monopolizing gold doesn't go along with it also.

Much of the current debacle could have been avoided by a few basic policies: 1. audit the money makes to keep them honest, since tyrants and crooks abhor sunshine; 2. enforce the laws as written, which would have put Bernie Madoff out of business a long time ago and probably revealed his conspirators when in fact a multibillion Ponzi scheme results in only two prosecutions? Please; 3. regulate financial markets -- derivatives over four successive administration have not been regulated like stocks -- thus the wildly inflated notional values and fraud in the sale of these instruments; 4. require ethics -- as the investment banker for XYZ stock, how can it possibly be ethical to go short (ie, bet against) the stock, especially with the use of rumor, inuendo and other dirty tricks.

The issuance of the special drawing right seems to be intended on a kind of a gold standard now. But, the Bank of International Settlements, which issues them, is as closed to the Eye of Sauron as one could imagine.

I am not intending to give investment advice, but maybe that is implied. More important is the proper appreciation for commodities of any type as a gift from God, with gold being a special case. It contrast quite strongly with manipulative currency systems, and those systems are predicted by Scripture.

I do agree that the best way forward lies in much tighter controls, auditing, and holding people accountable. I also agree that real worth lies in the value of commodities. But I don't see gold as being a special case. Its value in the past lay in it abiity to make pretty jewellery that doesn't tarnish, but how much gold jewellery do we need in the world? Don't forget Genesis had just spent the first chapter describing everything God created as good, light, plants, fish, animals. God described the promised land as good with its streams and crops iron and copper.
Deut 8:7 For the LORD your God is bringing you into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and springs, flowing out in the valleys and hills,
8:8 a land of wheat and barley, of vines and fig trees and pomegranates, a land of olive trees and honey,
8:9 a land in which you will eat bread without scarcity, in which you will lack nothing, a land whose stones are iron, and out of whose hills you can dig copper.

Genesis does say the gold in the land of Havilah was good, but you making a very big leap to say this means gold is meant to be a good, divinely ordained basis for currency and the world economy, and not just gold from Havilah, but from any mine in the world. That is eisegesis I am afraid. Genesis does not say what the gold was good for, but from the context of ANE nomadic pasturalists, I would think it meant either easily available and extracted, or good quality and easily turned into rings and bracelets.

A number of economists have proposed issuing treasury bills instead of, as we have in America, Federal Reserve Notes -- ie, promises to pay a private bank. It would have the advantage of mitigating the power of unelected bankers and, theoretically, avoiding interest (at least in the days before the Yes and now the dollar carry trade). But, like any other system, a way to keep leaders honest becomes the challenge. If you are interested in the subject, here is one proposal for a stable treasury issued currency. YouTube - The Money Masters (Part 20 of 22)

There is no gift of God that man cannot pervert. But, in terms of stability and value, gold in hand as a form of savings is quite unlike the treacherous financial instruments of human empires.

Gold - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gold price per troy ounce in USD since
1960, in nominal US$ and inflation adjusted
in 2009 US$.
​

Hardly stable, and it has little intrinsic value, it is good for making rings and bracelets that stay shiny and don't wear out. Remember how the value of gold tumbled in Europe when Spain tapped into Inca gold? That is not stable and would not hardly happened if gold had true intrinsic value. Of course people don't mind instability when the cost of their commodity is going up, but gold is skyrocketing, people think it is a better investment than property or stocks, but isn't that the classic recipe for an economic bubble?

 

[theFijian]

Origins Theology is about the theology of how we got here, hence the name "origins." Just because something is in the creation account doesn't mean it has to do with Origins Theology. This is just a conspiracy theory that happens to quote from Genesis. Go to the Eschatology board. That's where these things go.

What Dark_Lite said. Frankly I've little time for this kind of dispensationalist guff that has to backfill scripture with current political/economic events for it to convey any meaning.

 

[busterdog]

What Dark_Lite said. Frankly I've little time for this kind of dispensationalist guff that has to backfill scripture with current political/economic events for it to convey any meaning.

Good. Spend less time on it.

 

[theFijian]

Good. Spend less time on it.

I plan to. Spend more time discussing what scripture actually says rather than eisegeting it so it conforms to your pet theories, you'll get more out of that way.

 

[busterdog]

You seemed to think all our problems would have been avoided by sticking to a gold standard.

I guess that would be the tendency of many who speak of such things, so I guess that is why it seems so.

The real "gold standard" is a level playing field. It really hardly matters what the medium is, if the market is an honest one. Favoritism in regulation and government controls are a particular scourge for the human race.

If there were a level playing field, gold would rise naturally and no standard would be necessary. Cocoa would rise to the proper level as well. In a perfect world with honest government and business, gold would just be "good" as God had intended.

The gold monopolies would have been far less powerful if the were true competition allowing other things of value to be used in exchange. That was the reason for the free silver movement -- which was intended to allow silver as money to break the stranglehold on gold.

That is not necessarily a completely "free market". You still need government intervention. At the end of the Clinton administration, through Bush and into Obama, we had the government declining to require the same disclosure for derivatives as existed with stocks. It is much easier to go to jail for lying about a stock than it is for lying about a derivative. A complete hands off attitude does allow for bad results.

I do agree that the best way forward lies in much tighter controls, auditing, and holding people accountable. I also agree that real worth lies in the value of commodities. But I don't see gold as being a special case. Its value in the past lay in it abiity to make pretty jewellery that doesn't tarnish, but how much gold jewellery do we need in the world? Don't forget Genesis had just spent the first chapter describing everything God created as good, light, plants, fish, animals. God described the promised land as good with its streams and crops iron and copper.
Deut 8:7 For the LORD your God is bringing you into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and springs, flowing out in the valleys and hills,
8:8 a land of wheat and barley, of vines and fig trees and pomegranates, a land of olive trees and honey,
8:9 a land in which you will eat bread without scarcity, in which you will lack nothing, a land whose stones are iron, and out of whose hills you can dig copper.

There is certainly a lot of truth in that. Regardless of why it is that gold is valuable, the fact is that it is THE most representative of all of your examples when one speaks of wealth, a store of value, a basis for exchange, etc.

I am not sure how helpful it is to argue about whether gold is categorically different. That would be difficult to do for the reasons you mention. But, gold is the best representative of a class of assets. If God were to speak of giving wealth to mankind, would that not be at the top of the list or representative commodities? That is in fact what gold has been in history.

Genesis does say the gold in the land of Havilah was good, but you making a very big leap to say this means gold is meant to be a good, divinely ordained basis for currency and the world economy, and not just gold from Havilah, but from any mine in the world. That is eisegesis I am afraid. Genesis does not say what the gold was good for, but from the context of ANE nomadic pasturalists, I would think it meant either easily available and extracted, or good quality and easily turned into rings and bracelets.

Well, let me not be read to press as vigorously, then. I think the argument still works. God gives every good gift. Trying to grade gifts from God on the relative merit is hazardous business for mortals -- but gifts are suited to particular purposes. Gold is suited to wealth preservation and exchange -- exchange between humans being really vital to so many issues in the Bible.

But, if were to look at the end of history as a fundamentalist, one would see manipulation and fiat currencies. The best representative of the opposite would be gold given by the Father.

Gold - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gold price per troy ounce in USD since
1960, in nominal US$ and inflation adjusted
in 2009 US$.
​

Hardly stable, and it has little intrinsic value, it is good for making rings and bracelets that stay shiny and don't wear out. Remember how the value of gold tumbled in Europe when Spain tapped into Inca gold? That is not stable and would not hardly happened if gold had true intrinsic value. Of course people don't mind instability when the cost of their commodity is going up, but gold is skyrocketing, people think it is a better investment than property or stocks, but isn't that the classic recipe for an economic bubble?

Historically, there really is no comparison for stability. If you look at periods of inflation and deflation as well, gold remains the best store of value. Spanish gold prices may have been volatile, but that is not Asia Minor, India or Eastern Europe. Across all regions and all centuries, gold has been very reliable. Change your scale to centuries.

I think it is a bit of an aside toward the point. But, if anyone is an investor and interested in the issue, your dollar price graph also begs the question about exactly the kind of market inequalities that have existed throughout history. Usually true value will rise to its appropriate level when manipulation is eliminated. If one looks at gold now, the market is demonstrable inequitable. For example, if one contracts to buy gold and then actually expects to take delivery, the counterparty can question whether delivery is an economic necessity or benefit and delivery can be denied. That is, one can settle in cash rather than the real stuff. The argument for delivery is maybe easier with cocoa -- ie, you want to make chocolate.

But, would it not be obvious that if one prefers gold metal to paper dollars in settlement of the contract, does this system not prefer sellers who are over-leveraged? Ie, they contract to sell more gold than they have? What this means is that true supply is not necessarily an issue for the regulators when one goes to resolve a dispute on a commodity contract. The buyer can say that there is an economic necessity or benefit in delivery, because the buyer is buying on the basis of limited supply. In New York and London, that argument is not a winner. And, in fact, sellers resist delivery and offer cash or GLD/SLV shares instead.

A big buyer must bring many lawyers. That is by definition a market imbalance that encourages buyers, particularly large buyers, to buy something else.

YouTube - Press TV-On the edge with Max Keiser-Max Keiser speaking to Jim Willie-07-30-2010(Part1)

We needn't resort to conspiracy theories -- that is just how the market works. It has preferences and inequalities by the definitions of the institutions themselves. It is only a level playing field if one simply assumes that there are sufficient supplies of gold to satisfy all demand.

 

[Assyrian]

Historically, there really is no comparison for stability. If you look at periods of inflation and deflation as well, gold remains the best store of value. Spanish gold prices may have been volatile, but that is not Asia Minor, India or Eastern Europe. Across all regions and all centuries, gold has been very reliable. Change your scale to centuries.

I think it is a bit of an aside toward the point. But, if anyone is an investor and interested in the issue, your dollar price graph also begs the question about exactly the kind of market inequalities that have existed throughout history. Usually true value will rise to its appropriate level when manipulation is eliminated. If one looks at gold now, the market is demonstrable inequitable. For example, if one contracts to buy gold and then actually expects to take delivery, the counterparty can question whether delivery is an economic necessity or benefit and delivery can be denied. That is, one can settle in cash rather than the real stuff. The argument for delivery is maybe easier with cocoa -- ie, you want to make chocolate.

But, would it not be obvious that if one prefers gold metal to paper dollars in settlement of the contract, does this system not prefer sellers who are over-leveraged? Ie, they contract to sell more gold than they have? What this means is that true supply is not necessarily an issue for the regulators when one goes to resolve a dispute on a commodity contract. The buyer can say that there is an economic necessity or benefit in delivery, because the buyer is buying on the basis of limited supply. In New York and London, that argument is not a winner. And, in fact, sellers resist delivery and offer cash or GLD/SLV shares instead.

A big buyer must bring many lawyers. That is by definition a market imbalance that encourages buyers, particularly large buyers, to buy something else.

YouTube - Press TV-On the edge with Max Keiser-Max Keiser speaking to Jim Willie-07-30-2010(Part1)

We needn't resort to conspiracy theories -- that is just how the market works. It has preferences and inequalities by the definitions of the institutions themselves. It is only a level playing field if one simply assumes that there are sufficient supplies of gold to satisfy all demand.

Change you scale to centuries and Wall Street will appear stable too, time smooths out the temporary glitches like the Wall Street Crash that ruined so many lives. I had a look at India as you suggested, they didn't use gold for the rupee, but used silver instead and lost out very badly when more silver deposits were discovered, as Europe had with gold when the American gold flooded in.

What is the true value of gold anyway? As has been pointed out it has little intrinsic worth. Does it have enough real value to match the world's GDP if it was supposed to back all the money in the world? We only have a fraction of that amount of gold, so to bring the world economy onto a gold standard you would have to inflate the value of gold to 40 times its times its current worth, is it really worth that much? You talk of gold finding its true value when manipulation is removed, but when America was on the gold standard it involved the government fixing the price of gold, not gold set free to find its market value. And are you really proposing a one world economic system here Busterdog?

 

[shernren]

It is a testament to the resilience of the human mind that it can sustain so many simultaneous contradictions without simply crumbling like a heap of so many matchsticks.

Historically, there really is no comparison for stability.

... Across all regions and all centuries, gold has been very reliable.

Here's a thought experiment. Imagine that, overnight, all financial records involving aluminum suddenly disappear. The miners are still mining and the refiners are still refining, but suddenly nobody remembers how much the stuff is worth.

Manufacturer A says, "Well then, I'll say that a tonne of aluminum costs two cents!" Manufacturer B doesn't want Manufacturer A to hoard the entire supply, so he bids for five cents. What happens? The price keeps going up until, eventually, it is controlled by the price that consumers are willing to pay manufacturers for their aluminum-containing products.

Now repeat the process with gold. The electronics people might push the price up a little, but they don't use that much gold. The jewelry people might push the price even higher; but how much will consumers pay for just more bling?

At the end of the day, people who buy gold just for investment, instead of for making something with it, are still speculators. They may be risk-averse, but "The price of gold will remain stable in the future" is still as much a gamble with little rational backing as any other gamble that speculators speculate on.

Personally, I don't get finance. But most scientists get very little finance anyway ...

 

[busterdog]

Change you scale to centuries and Wall Street will appear stable too, time smooths out the temporary glitches like the Wall Street Crash that ruined so many lives. I had a look at India as you suggested, they didn't use gold for the rupee, but used silver instead and lost out very badly when more silver deposits were discovered, as Europe had with gold when the American gold flooded in.

Not at all. You cant compare the market for all equities with the market for a single commodity. Compare any given stock to gold, and that is your standard. All stocks eventually go to zero. Equities markets generally have continued to be useful for many hundreds of years. But, the equities always change. Gold is not at all like a stock. A stock is also counterparty risk. Someone else has to be good and/or honest.

What is the true value of gold anyway? As has been pointed out it has little intrinsic worth. Does it have enough real value to match the world's GDP if it was supposed to back all the money in the world? We only have a fraction of that amount of gold, so to bring the world economy onto a gold standard you would have to inflate the value of gold to 40 times its times its current worth, is it really worth that much? You talk of gold finding its true value when manipulation is removed, but when America was on the gold standard it involved the government fixing the price of gold, not gold set free to find its market value. And are you really proposing a one world economic system here Busterdog?

Penicillin and revolvers are also completely useless if nobody wants them, by your definition.

I have said a number of times that I am not advocating a strict gold standard.

The one world system was of course not part of my proposal.

 

[busterdog]

Personally, I don't get finance. But most scientists get very little finance anyway ...

Imagine a science test graded competitively. Imagine that a fellow student is also the teacher and writes the test and discusses it with his chosen buddies the night before. That is finance. That is why Al Gore, eg, profits from trading carbon tax credits, because he knows what the lawmakers are going to define as being valuable in advance. Same thing with recent swings in the Euro and dollar. You can see the finger prints of insiders all over the trades betting the euro is going up or down.

It is a snake pit.

 

[shernren]

Penicillin and revolvers are also completely useless if nobody wants them, by your definition.

Penicillin can heal people, even if nobody wants to heal or be healed.

Revolvers can kill people, even if nobody wants to kill or be killed.

Gold can, um, sit around in vaults looking pretty?

 

[Assyrian]

Not at all. You cant compare the market for all equities with the market for a single commodity. Compare any given stock to gold, and that is your standard. All stocks eventually go to zero. Equities markets generally have continued to be useful for many hundreds of years. But, the equities always change. Gold is not at all like a stock. A stock is also counterparty risk. Someone else has to be good and/or honest.

Sounds to me like an argument for basing you currency on all the equities in the market, rather than a single commodity, let alone one with no intrinsic value other than human sentimentality. As you say all stocks do eventually go to zero, which sound like an argument to me for basing you market on the top, say, 100 stocks.

You imagine gold has held its value, but this only happened while it was pegged artificially to the currency during the centuries the gold standard held. It crashed disastrously when the Spanish conquered the Americas, In Isaac Newton's time as master of the Royal Mint it was very unstable because disparities in the value of silver and gold in Asia and Europe led to European silver being sucked away into Asia and Asian gold coming to Europe. Since gold has been removed from its artificial fixed value its price has fluctuated wildly. Yet we are supposed rely on your claim gold will find its true value once manipulation is eliminated, firstly I don't think we will ever have an unmanipulated market, especially when the gold standard demands manipulation, and secondly you are assuming gold really does have a 'true value' instead of one based on perception and supply.

Penicillin and revolvers are also completely useless if nobody wants them, by your definition.

But people do want them, because they do the jobs they were designed for, whether we approve of those jobs or not, they are in demand because people need them. If you had decent gun control in the US the bottom would probably drop out of that market, but it is only one industry, and think of all the people who would left alive buying products from you other 99 top industries. Penicillin is losing its effectiveness with bugs getting resistant which is why new drugs are being developed. Anyway, while a vial of penicillin is useful now in few years it will be past its expiry date. But it really is good to have if you are sick. Gold is only useful for jewellery, and frankly supply vastly outstrips any possible demand, which traditionally is a serious problem economically.

Rev 6:6 And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!" So, which has real value?

I have said a number of times that I am not advocating a strict gold standard.

What percentage canker would you be happy with?

The one world system was of course not part of my proposal.

You would get away with it as long as the country on the gold standard was the dominant economic power in the world, they would set the economic standard. The problem comes in if you have more powerful economies who don't use a gold standard or don't think gold has any real worth apart from flogging the pretty metal to those who do. Cowrie shells used to be an important currency. Now they are just pretty. What happened? Was it because pretty shells have no real value while pretty metal does? Or was it because the countries that used the pretty metal also had the industrial revolution.