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RightWingGirl said:Why do you think people did not used to have the concept of a myth? Could you give me a source?
The Lady Kate said:"Myth" doesn't necessarily mean "false," although popular use has made it seem that way.
The Bible contains myths... there's no getting around that.... as well as history, poetry, wisdom literature, and what-have-you. Knowing what's what when you're reading it isn't always easy.
God could do anything. He could make a universe where physicality was so different that bowls could physically contain wrath. However, in our universe, that is indeed impossible. I agree that is a good reason to see the bowls as symbolic.RightWingGirl said:It is physically possible for God to create the universe in six days, six hours, six minutes--what will you. It is not phsically possible to put wrath, which is an emotion, into a bowl. I belive the bowls are symbolic.
They are a framework used to describe creation, just like the seals, trumpets and bowls are a framework for describing God's wrath and judgement. Days are used to relate God's creation (which is ongoing to this day) and God's rest (which is also ongoing to this day) to the human work week and Sabbath.WHat do you think the days are symbolic of?
The Lady Kate said:The Bible contains myths... there's no getting around that.... as well as history, poetry, wisdom literature, and what-have-you.
Extirpated Wildlife said:A Christian axiom: Adam was the first human being.
RightWingGirl said:I'm sorry about the text size!!
You think that the average Hebrew would have taken it as literal, that God created all in six solar days. God, being all knowing, would know what the Hebrews would make of it, correct?
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them'
Oh yeah, the answer was "Yes, I concur"RightWingGirl said:Do you think the Bible is a myth? The Pheonix example seems to hang on this--are we speaking of myth or reality.
Why do you think people did not used to have the concept of a myth? Could you give me a source?
Could you please answer my question? (Of page hmm....five, I think) Thanks!
-Mercury- said:They are a framework used to describe creation, just like the seals, trumpets and bowls are a framework for describing God's wrath and judgement. Days are used to relate God's creation (which is ongoing to this day) and God's rest (which is also ongoing to this day) to the human work week and Sabbath.
-Mercury- said:God could do anything. He could make a universe where physicality was so different that bowls could physically contain wrath. However, in our universe, that is indeed impossible. I agree that is a good reason to see the bowls as symbolic.
God could also create a universe in six days, but assuming that universe bore witness to his creative work, it would not be like our universe, any more than those hypothetical bowls would be like bowls in our universe. Our universe bears witness to creation that began billions of years ago and continues to this day.
So, just as you treat the bowls of God's wrath symbolically because treating them literally leads to you to logical contradiction with reality as we know it, I also treat the days of God's creation symbolically partly because treating them literally would point to a creation other than the world I live in. (There's other reasons too. The genre and form of both Revelation 16 and Genesis 1 provide many clues that the accounts should not be read literalistically.)
They are a framework used to describe creation, just like the seals, trumpets and bowls are a framework for describing God's wrath and judgement. Days are used to relate God's creation (which is ongoing to this day) and God's rest (which is also ongoing to this day) to the human work week and Sabbath.
In this way, something beyond human comprehension (God's creation and rest) are brought down to our level through something we experience (the week). This is similar to how the incarnation, life and death of Jesus are brought down to our level in the bread and wine of the Lord's supper. Personally, I think there is great distance between literal bread and Jesus' body and literal six days and God's creation, but Scripture equates bread to body and six days to God's creation in order to make the symbolism clear.
RightWingGirl said:My point is that the bowls are obviously meant to be symbolic
, while the Creation week is not.
The creation story is not just a myth that appears in the begining of the Bible, but a theme that runs though the whole of it. It is mentioned by God,(Exodus 20:11), Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Disciples, prophets.....
Can you show me anywhere in the bible where it is said, or indicated, that the six days of Creation were myth?
The same reason the order of Jesus' temptation in Luke 4 is "badly done" if it is attempting to recount chronological details and it truly happened in the order Matthew 4 gives (or vice versa). However, if one or both of these accounts aren't trying to give chronological details and have other reasons for their order, we shouldn't claim that either of them are badly done.RightWingGirl said:Hmm...if it was a "frame work" then it is badly done. The order in Genesis is almost completely opposite of the order prescribed by Evolution. WHy is that?
What is the reason for the order?-Mercury- said:Genesis 1 has obvious meaning in its order without forcing the order to be chronological. If the order were chronological, it would be superfluous. For instance, if I listed all of my cousins in alphabetical order, you probably wouldn't presume that this was also the order they were born in. The order already has an explanation without that, and it would be quite a coincidence if the order alphabetically and by birth was the same.
The reason for the order in Genesis 1 is far more obvious than the reason for the non-chronological order in either Luke 4 or Matthew 4, or both.
The average Hebrew would probably know much more than I about farming. Even he did not keep sheep himself he would likely have known someone that did. With this knowledge, I think that he would know that this was a miracle.---
Now, you also asked some questions about what the average Hebrew at the time would have thought of the creation accounts. I have another question. What do you think the average Hebrew at the time this was written, without the knowledge of modern science, would have thought that this meant:
"Then Jacob took fresh sticks of poplar and almond and plane trees, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the sticks. He set the sticks that he had peeled in front of the flocks in the troughs, that is, the watering places, where the flocks came to drink. And since they bred when they came to drink, the flocks bred in front of the sticks and so the flocks brought forth striped, speckled, and spotted." (Genesis 30:37-39, ESV)
Do you think the average Hebrew would have known that looking at the branches did nothing to affect the genetics of the offspring, and so the result was entirely a miracle?
And it's obvious to me that both are meant to be symbolic. To move further, you need to share why one is obvious to you while the other isn't. I gave my reasons for seeing both as symbolic.RightWingGirl said:My point is that the bowls are obviously meant to be symbolic, while the Creation week is not.
Do you take that verse as being written directly by the finger of God onto the stone tablets? If so, how do you explain Deuteronomy 5? It lists the "words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them on two tablets of stone" (Deuteronomy 5:22). Yet, the Sabbath command does not contain a reference to creation in this account, even though God "added no more" than what is listed there.The creation story is not just a myth that appears in the begining of the Bible, but a theme that runs though the whole of it. It is mentioned by God,(Exodus 20:11)
You seem to be forgetting that we all agree that creation happened and God did it. The people you mentioned did not all mention the six days. And, even if they had mentioned them, there's no rule saying a symbol cannot be mentioned. For instance, the tree of life from Genesis 2-3 also shows up again in Revelation (which you've agreed is a book containing symbolism)....mentioned by God,(Exodus 20:11), Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Disciples, prophets.....
It's right after the verse that indicates that the seven bowls of God's wrath are figurative.Can you show me anywhere in the bible where it is said, or indicated, that the six days of Creation were myth?
The verses I am speaking of either indicate the reality of the flood, or the existance of man since the beginning of time.The people you mentioned did not all mention the six days.
I attempted to give it in the two paragraphs you snipped in your response.RightWingGirl said:What is the reason for the order?
The account says that since they bred by the striped branches, they brought forth striped, speckled and spotted. You are ignoring the causality clearly indicated in the account due to what you know about genetics. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the ancient Hebrews shared your knowledge on that topic.The average Hebrew would probably know much more than I about farming. Even he did not keep sheep himself he would likely have known someone that did. With this knowledge, I think that he would know that this was a miracle.
If Matthew 19:4 means that humans existed from the beginning of the universe, does John 15:27 mean the disciples also existed from the beginning of the universe?RightWingGirl said:The verses I am speaking of either indicate the reality of the flood, or the existance of man since the beginning of time.
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