Creationist that wants to learn about evolution.

[Modus]

First of all, I do reject evolution. I believe there is good evidence on both sides here, ( i don't know if there is enough for either to be absolutely proven, but thats why I'm here) but the main reason I reject evolution is because of what has been proven to me outside of science.
If evolution conflicts with something God says in the bible, I would definately go with God.
No amount of empirical testing can outwiegh the word of God. I also believe that science is harmonius with the bible.
Those two last statements seem to contradict each other but actually they do not. It only explains why I would choose to reject something that is hostile to my faith even if it has lots of evidence for it. The word of God has been proven to me to be 100% correct, it has never failed me. Science is not always 100%. Nobody can argue with that (well, they can't argue the latter at least)

I can better describe it like this: A child is told by his father "son, don't touch that heater bar its hot" So the son believes it. The child starts thinking "hmm, wonder if that heater bar really is hot?" and he reaches out and touches it. The second his flesh burns he goes into the realm of believing to the realm of knowing that bar is hot. Once I reached out and touched the heater bar of God's love and forgiveness, I went from believing to knowing. Any heater bar expert can tell the child that that heater bar is not hot, but he doesnt care what anybody tells him becuase he knows its hot and no amount of reasoning is going to change his mind.

So now you see why I believe the word of God over science. And I suspect you could say something similar about your beliefs in evolution. So before we start a flame war of insults before we start the website referencing wars, please, I am willing to actually study some material on evolution to get a better understanding of it. So now you know where I stand, and I really would'nt like to debate why I believe what I do here. If you are really that interested in why I believe what I believe, email me or ask me somewhere else, this isn't the topic of the thread. Also I think I need to clarify that I am not starting this thread to try and disprove evolution. You already know that my knowledge is limited on the subject it would be pointless of me to start in like I know everything about it and start making ridiculous claims (like most of the christians on here that I have been seeing, ive also been guilty of it myself) And please brothers, don't turn this thread into another flame war. IF your need to be right is greater then your need to be effective then please dont post here.

With that said, I would like start asking questions. From what I have read, fossil evidence supporting evolution has had a bad history of producing frauds and just plain mistakes, however I do know there are some contenders up for possible missing link finds. Does anybody have any info on fossils of species in a transitional period. (i have read a bit on the archeoptryx, so Im pretty familiar with that stuff) or any fossil records relating to missing link stuff.

 

[TheSleepWalker]

Personally, my views on evolution don't conflict with my faith in god. Like someone said on this forum: it's not IF god created it's all about HOW he created. He could have created everything following the nature's law that he have imposed to all his creatures. And the Genesis is just a metaphor of how nature was created... I hope that one day you realise that science is not the religion's enemy. You don't have to feel threatened in your faith because knowledge contradict YOUR interpretation of the bible. Don't make the bible your false idol that dictate over your mind.

 

[ForeRunner]

In all honesty, the best place to start is here. This forum is full of evidence and discussions, just start reading, you won't find a group of people more knowledgable outside an academic institution (I even have my doubts on that one ;D). My other suggestion is if you have a university near you to go to their library. Read the journals they publish in first hand, as someone that doesn't understand science you will be amazed by how exact and meticulous they are. Good luck.

 

[Modus]

In all honesty, the best place to start is here. This forum is full of evidence and discussions, just start reading, you won't find a group of people more knowledgable outside an academic institution (I even have my doubts on that one ;D). My other suggestion is if you have a university near you to go to their library. Read the journals they publish in first hand, as someone that doesn't understand science you will be amazed by how exact and meticulous they are. Good luck.

Great, I'm in the right place then!

Personally, my views on evolution don't conflict with my faith in god. Like someone said on this forum: it's not IF god created it's all about HOW he created. He could have created everything following the nature's law that he have imposed to all his creatures. And the Genesis is just a metaphor of how nature was created... I hope that one day you realise that science is not the religion's enemy. You don't have to feel threatened in your faith because knowledge contradict YOUR interpretation of the bible. Don't make the bible your false idol that dictate over your mind.

AGain, this is not the topic of the thread, If you want to make comments like this please save it for another thread or email me. Thanks

I'll post the question again.

From what I have read, fossil evidence supporting evolution has had a bad history of producing frauds and just plain mistakes, however I do know there are some contenders up for possible missing link finds. Does anybody have any info on fossils of species in a transitional period. (i have read a bit on the archeoptryx, so Im pretty familiar with that stuff) or any fossil records relating to missing link stuff.

 

[reformedfan]

"The Genesis Flood" by Henry Morris & some other guy is an excellent book to read on this subject.

 

[notto]

Talk Origins Transitional fossil FAQ
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

Talk Origins probably has addressed any question on evolution you might come up with. You should read the Must Read files

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-mustread.html

 

[ForeRunner]

From what I have read, fossil evidence supporting evolution has had a bad history of producing frauds and just plain mistakes, however I do know there are some contenders up for possible missing link finds. Does anybody have any info on fossils of species in a transitional period. (i have read a bit on the archeoptryx, so Im pretty familiar with that stuff) or any fossil records relating to missing link stuff.

This is false. There have been a couple of hoaxes played on scientists, and once discovered by scientists they were discarded. Those couple do not hurt the thousands and thousands of other pieces of supporting evidence.

 

[Modus]

This is false. There have been a couple of hoaxes played on scientists, and once discovered by scientists they were discarded. Those couple do not hurt the thousands and thousands of other pieces of supporting evidence.

Right, those thousands and thousands of other pieces of evidence is excactly what i'm looking for. Sorry for the loaded language. I didn't actually know there were thousands of fossils found, were can I read about that?

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

If evolution conflicts with something God says in the bible, I would definately go with God.

This is problem number one. This sounds like you will outright reject any of the supporting evidence for the theory of evolution because you have already assumed a priori that evolution conflicts with your religious text. What you seem to want is a theological discussion, not a scientific one.

No amount of empirical testing can outwiegh the word of God. I also believe that science is harmonius with the bible.

This is problem number two. No matter how much you want to pretend like those statements aren't contradictory, they are. You simply cannot have it both ways if you are insisting upon a literal interpretation of much of your religious text, particularly genesis. Science is simply NOT harmonius with your interpretation of the Bible. This has been known for almost two centuries now. There simply is no way around that except willful ignorance.

The word of God has been proven to me to be 100% correct, it has never failed me.

This is problem number three. You are assuming that the way you interpret your religious text is automatically right. In the end, it will come down to a theological discussion by the theistic evolutionists here trying to explain that your interpretation of your religious text is not infallible nor can it automatically be equated with "the word of God" before you would even consider accepting any evidence for the theory of evolution.

However, I should point out, as a warning, that if you insist that your literal interpretation of the Bible must be equated to "the word of God" and is necessarily representative of Christianity, then you are setting up Christianity for a quick and easy disprove. That's right, if you say literal interpretation must equal the only true representation of Christianity, then Christianity is false, plain and simple, and it can be proven to be such from that perspective.

Science is not always 100%.

Science can, however, give 100% disproofs via falsification. We can take claims like "6,000 year old earth" or "worldwide flood" and test them. If evidence exists that CANNOT exist if the earth is 6,000 years old or if a worldwide flood happened, then those claims are NECESSARILY false. That is the case.

It is true that science cannot give 100% positive proof (though it can give negative proof) because it works via deductive logic, so strictly speaking, there is no 100% proof. However the theory of evolution has mountains of evidence in support of it and mountains of evidence disprove young earth creationism. There exists no evidence to date that disproves the theory of evolution, and that is why it is accepted.


The best place on the internet to read about the supporting evidence for evolution would be talkorigins, as others have pointed out, because it has a wealth of information and it is explained well with pictures and is generally an easy read. However, that should not stop you from going to a library and reading introductory biology textbooks or perusing the scientific literature on the subject. Moreover, the science forum on this website is FULL of evidence for evolution and corresponding disproofs of creationism. Since you are new here, it is likely you haven't looked through the forum much. I suggest you do that first, as there are even specific threads dealing with transitional fossils. In short, this isn't the first time this has been discussed.

 

[Modus]

I think I explained this already with the child and the heater bar illustration. And again, this really isn't the place for this kind of discussion. I simply want to learn about evolution and I am asking you guys for some information on the topic. You just made a specific claim and I'm asking where I can read about that claim.

I'll post my last question again.

This is false. There have been a couple of hoaxes played on scientists, and once discovered by scientists they were discarded. Those couple do not hurt the thousands and thousands of other pieces of supporting evidence.

Right, those thousands and thousands of other pieces of evidence is excactly what i'm looking for. Sorry for the loaded language. I didn't actually know there were thousands of fossils found, were can I read about that?

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

However the flaws in your requests are still apparent, and equating a literal interpretation of genesis to "the word of God" gives you nothing but trouble. Your analogy doesn't really demonstrate anything, and it IS a place for this type of discussion if you are going to dismiss evidence automatically because you think it conflicts with your theology. If that's the case, I don't think anyone's going to want to bother...you know, besides the fact that the evidence has been discussed before in other threads that you could just as easily read through.

 

[ForeRunner]

In a library, at talk of origins, or in this forum. We won't do all the work for you.

 

[Modus]

Ok, how about this. I think you are the biggest idiot ever to type on this forum. They have only discovered two possible transitional fossils and one of them turned out to be a piece of fossilized manure. You can't show me that there have been thousands of transitional fossils becuase there isn't any you big dumb evil evolution man.

Seriously though, that is a specific claim and I want to see if you can back it up. I can't find it on talkorgins and I don't think you can either.


Look I found a website that says there arent any either. http://www.geocities.com/dearmodus/transitionalfossils.html

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

http://www.christianforums.com/t62961
http://www.christianforums.com/t43227

Those are two examples of threads on the topic of transitional fossils. It's been a topic already discussed here before. You can find information on transitional fossils at talkorigins as well, or you can take the effort to look through the rest of this forum, or even go to the library and read books on the topic. Learning science doesn't take merely a few minutes. Many people here have science degrees, are working toward them, or avidly study it independently and we have devoted years of our lives to studying it.

 

[Meatros]

Ok, how about this. I think you are the biggest idiot ever to type on this forum. They have only discovered two possible transitional fossils and one of them turned out to be a piece of fossilized manure. You can't show me that there have been thousands of transitional fossils becuase there isn't any you big dumb evil evolution man.

Seriously though, that is a specific claim and I want to see if you can back it up. I can't find it on talkorgins and I don't think you can either.

First place to start is talkorigins, with the 29 evidences for macroevolution: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html

From there you can check out a few of these links:
Mammal like reptiles: http://www.gcssepm.org/special/cuffey_05.htm
Here's horse evolution, 55 million years worth: http://chem.tufts.edu/science/evolution/HorseEvolution.htm
Smooth change in the fossil record: http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/fossil_series.html

Some interesting Therapsida stuff: http://www.palaeos.com/Vertebrates/Units/400Therapsida/000.html
As for missing links: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993910
DinoBird tansitionals: http://www.nhm.ac.uk/dinobirds/
Whale origins: http://darla.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/whaleorigins.htm
Origins of flight: http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/evolve.html

Just for S&G's, the walking (air breathing) catfish: http://mbgnet.mobot.org/fresh/wetlands/animals/catfish.html
A decent page about misconceptions of evolution: http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/Evolution_misconceptions/misconceptions.htm

and human origins: http://www.modernhumanorigins.com/hominids.html




Is this the sort of stuff you are looking for?

 

[ForeRunner]

I say let him do his own work, especially if he has the audacity to call us idiots.

 

[Captain Jackson]

First, he says that he want to learn about evolution. Then,

First of all, I do reject evolution.

You've already admitted that you are closed-minded with respect to evolution (like virtually all Creationists). Why should I bother reading the rest of your post, let alone reply to it?

 

[Bushido216]

Did you check out his website? He has links to Dr. Dino.

This guy isn't worth our time.

 

[Mike Flynn]

If evolution conflicts with something God says in the bible, I would definately go with God. No amount of empirical testing can outwiegh the word of God. I also believe that science is harmonius with the bible.

They are. But YEC is contradictory with science. Thats why we know that YEC is also contradictory with the Bible.

It only explains why I would choose to reject something that is hostile to my faith even if it has lots of evidence for it. The word of God has been proven to me to be 100% correct, it has never failed me.

You mean that the Bible says to seek Him first through Christ...and that is 100% correct. However, there are several parts of the Bible that are not intended to be taken literally. So what exactly do you mean when you say the Bible is 100% correct?

Science is not always 100%. Nobody can argue with that (well, they can't argue the latter at least)

Well, why do you think there are so many denominations of Christianity? The Bible might be 100% correct on some level, but our interpretations of it are not. The same is true about science. Creation is what it is...but our interpretations of it are not always complete or correct.

Any heater bar expert can tell the child that that heater bar is not hot, but he doesnt care what anybody tells him becuase he knows its hot and no amount of reasoning is going to change his mind.

Many Christians have had similar experiences. However, why can't they agree about thier biblical intpretations after they have had these experiences? God is not a science teacher Modus...both your experience and the Bible should prove that to you.

So now you see why I believe the word of God over science.

All I can see is that you don't recognize that the Bible is not about science and science is not about the Bible. And so you believe that you are forced to choose between the two.

IF your need to be right is greater then your need to be effective then please dont post here.

But isn't this the trouble with YEC, Modus? Is it about being right or being effective? It should be about being right...but it isn't. If it was, then they would let creation be creation, and not impose a fallible interpretation of Genesis on it...under the premise that this interpretation is right.

With that said, I would like start asking questions.

If you really cared about learning about evolution, then why did you start by telling us why you don't believe it? Why not just ask your questions instead? If you don't want people to comment on your assertions, then why did you post them?

 

[Modus]

If you really cared about learning about evolution, then why did you start by telling us why you don't believe it? Why not just ask your questions instead? If you don't want people to comment on your assertions, then why did you post them?

Look guys, I'm being honest. I really do want to learn about evolution becuase I don't believe I have a very good understanding of it. What I mean by rejecting evolution to begin with is; if it goes against what has been proven to me about God, then its going to be impossible for you to give me enough evidence for me to believe science over God. At this point, I don't even know if evolution does contradict my faith. There are people that claim that evolution works with the bible and there are those who say it doesn't. Well, guess what, I want to see for myself.

The reason I started this thread was to ask a few basic questions that I have to get a start on resources to take in. I understand that its probably been covered here a lot, if you guys don't mind helping me out by giving me a little special attention so that I can get on my way to learning, I ask that you guys could just answer my questions instead of just telling me to read. If you don't want to answer my questions than don't. No big deal.

BTW, sorry for calling you idiots, I didn't mean that litteraly, i was being sarcastic to prove the point that it seems like the only way for people to answer your questions is if you start acting like a 12 year old and start calling names and start making stupid claims. Which I can do (and have done before), but I would rather not lower myself to that. I think that there are some really intellegent minds on this forum and I intend to have an intellegent conversation.

The way I see it is that I have been honest with you guys and I'm actually going about this with a fair perspective, you can call me closed minded but that actually is nonsense. You believe what you believe becuase you have seen enough evidence for your beliefs to be proven to you. The same goes for me. If I were to ask you to believe something that didn't have as good of evidence as what you currently believed, would you change your mind? Probably not. Now would it be fair for me to call you closed minded becuase you didn't accept my evidence. No it wouldn't. So please respect that.


Thank you guys for the reading matterial i apreciate it. After I read that stuff I will probably be back with more questions.