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Creationist Misconceptions

 

General Misconceptions about evolutionary theory:

 

Misconception 1: Evolution is telelogical.

 

I notice people ask "well why hasn't X evolved intlligence if evolution is true" etc.

 

That whole line of reasoning presupposes that the evolutionary process is teleological, aimned at some sort of perfection. It is not, evolution just happens when a population of organisms is pressured. If they are not, there is no evolution. I.E. organisms don't change until it is absolutely necessary, if they can get along well as shapeless blobs they will stay shapeless blobs forever.

 

Misconception 2: Darwinism is based on saltation i.e. big mutations.

 

This error is made by people who ask "well how come a lizard never gives birth to a bird"? Or where is THE transitional form? (where THE transitional form, is supposed to be some sort of evolutionary freak.) Or when people argue, well how did the first "mutant" find a mate? I also think that many have large-saltation type mutations in mind when they speak of macroevolution.

 

All this preuposses that Darwinism demands huge mutations, lets say between a reptile and bird. That some day one reptile all of a sudden gives birth to a half-reptile/half-bird creature. That is not what Darwinists are saying happened at all. Large mutations, or saltations, are not a strong factor in modern day evolutionary theory. Why? Because evolutionary scietists see the same problem with saltationist theories that creationists do. Salations when they do occur, are more likely to lead to detriments then advantages. Since these changes are big, detriments at this level are also very lethal. Also finding a mate for a mutant of this type may be difficult. In the world of saltations for every chance there is to get something right, there is an almost infinitely higer chance ofscrewing something up.

 

That's why Darwinists are gradualists. They believe that small mutations are the driving force behind evolutionary theory. Why? Because the smaller a mutation is the more likely it is to be beneficial. To use an analogy of Richard Dawkins, suppose you want to get a clearer view of something in a microscope. You make little changes, even if untrained. Why? Because if you make a big change (zoom in closer of farther) you are very likely gonna mess it up. However if you only zoom in our out a bit, the chances of getting a clearer or more distorted view are 50/50. Evolution thus works like this, an organism gets a small change in some aspect essential for survival, perhaps it runs a little faster do to a slightly longer leg, due to this mutation the organism now has a higher chance of reproducing spreading this mutation among other orgainisms of its species. Slowly but surely all of the same organisms begin to have slightly longer legs. Then maybe even longer legs, as more small-mutations are made increasing leg length (once the leg is longer, the chances now of getting a leg slightly longer then the now longer leg increases). These small scale mutations accumulate over millions of years to create whole new groups of species.

 

Dog breeding illustrates this. When man domesticated some wolves, i.e. the first dogs, man didn't breed two wolves and get a poodle off the bat. Man had to accumulate small changes over many generations to get a poodle. The genes for poodles were already there, theoretically two wolves could have given birth to a poodle right off the bat, the chances of that though were so small that gradual change seemned the only viable alternative. 

 

Misconception 3: Evolution is all about chance.

 

 

Buzz. Not at all. There is some chance factor involved as mutations are not completely guided, but its not ALL chance. First off mutations tend to be small, for the reasons mentioned above. Secondly certain parts of animals, key parts (i.e. lungs), tend to not mutate at all or mutate in very,very small degrees.Lastly, the norm of a given species tends to dictate what changes will be made; for example a species who has 5 foot long legs is more likely to either have legs 1 inch smaller or larger in mutations; and is less likely to have a leg mutation that makes the leg 2 feet long.

Chance is also ruled out via accumulation through natural selection. Certain variations survive to pass on their genes, while other do not. Over generations this weeding tends to lead species in a certain direction. In my above examples, toward increased speed and leg size.

General misconceptions about Science:

Misconception 1:  For something to be scientific it has to be directly observed.

 

This is very wrong. Many scientific concepts are not directly observable like atoms,light and gravity.

 

This whole notion is based on positivist epistemolgy, which fail utterly. As positivism fails to verify the existence of such basic things as houses and universities.

This quote very much illustrates the need for theories and inference in science:

 

 


<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="90%" align=center border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD class=quote>About thirty years ago there was much talk that geologists ought only to observe and not theorize; and well I remember someone saying that it this rate a man might as well go into a gravel-pit and count the pebbles and describe the colors. How odd is it that anyone should not see that all observation must be for or against some view if it is to be of any service? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><SPAN class=postbody>
- Charles Darwin

Anyone who would reduce science to the most direct observations would basically reduce all of geology to pebble counting.&nbsp;Such reduction would make science useless as a&nbsp;discipline of both understanding and technological advance.
&nbsp;</SPAN>

Misconception 2: To be scientific a given event or&nbsp;theory underlying must be repeatable.

&nbsp;

Many things in science are not repeatable in that sense, super novas for example. Historical incidents. Dinosaurs; until rl Jurassic Park.&nbsp;That doesn't mean these things are not included in science. It also means that we cannot apply modern day theories based on direct ibservation,inference and deuction&nbsp;on these incidents to explain them.

&nbsp;

For example, to explain how the Black Plague spread, we use modern theories about germs and how they are&nbsp;they can be transmitted. We&nbsp;were not there during the black plague. So given the above miscocneption,&nbsp;such theorizing should be considered a sort of "a priori" metaphysical assumption, just as valid as lets say, the idea that the Plague was caused by&nbsp;and spread by demons.&nbsp;That's nonsense though and everyone knows it, why? Because what we know sheds light on past events and tells us what is likely and what is superlfuous. We know that, given our knowledge of germs, the demon explanation is unlikely, i.e. superfluous, and the rats with germs explanation is far more scietific. I.E. Principles of evidence, like Occam's Razor, allows one to explain past events based on what can be seen today. Biologists do this when explaining past events in evolutionary light, we know that animals can evolve, hence it makes sense to suppose that animals in the past likewise evolved and this evolutionary change added&nbsp;&nbsp;up. This explanation has been confirmned many times.

&nbsp;

Compare this to the alternative, for which no known mechanisms exist and for which many things seem disconfirming. This adds up to make creationist explanations superfluous and hence, unlikely compared to evolutionary theory.&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;

These are but some of the most popular misconceptions I see on this forum. Others should feel more then free to point this out.

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Chris†opher Paul

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organisms don't change until it is absolutely necessary

So, they feel pressured, and decide to evolve? :) Peer pressure? :wave:

To be scientific a given event or&nbsp;theory underlying must be repeatable.

Good point, the same applies to the super-natural, miracles, etc.
 
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That is micro evolution deriving from natural selection. Natural selection only gets rid of information (genes). You can't breed two poodle back to a wolf since its gene pool has decreased. Natural selection is not capable of making new creatures. It only diversifies a creature into many species of its kind. And if a benefical mutation occurs to a organism what is the chance of it finding a mate with those same traits? If not what is the chance of the trait being passed down to the eventual creation of a stable population of a whole new creature? Are you telling me this occur for all creatures? It seems that all those small chances are adding up to one big chance thing.
 
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Morat

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That is micro evolution deriving from natural selection. Natural selection only gets rid of information (genes). You can't breed two poodle back to a wolf since its gene pool has decreased. Natural selection is not capable of making new creatures. It only diversifies a creature into many species of its kind.

&nbsp; What's that other word? The one that goes with Natural selection all the time. Oh yeah, mutation.

And if a benefical mutation occurs to a organism what is the chance of it finding a mate with those same traits?

&nbsp; Why would it need to? Do you think a single mutation causes speciation? Goodness, you have several yourself. You might even have a chromosomal fusion, and you probably aren't even sterile.

&nbsp;If not what is the chance of the trait being passed down to the eventual creation of a stable population of a whole new creature? Are you telling me this occur for all creatures? It seems that all those small chances are adding up to one big chance thing.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Hmm..let's see. Small, tiny thing that makes creature a little happier and able to reproduce a little better. Over the next few generations, it spreads through the gene pool. Now most of the population has it. Now another tiny little beneficial mutation occurs, and it starts spreading. Now everyone's got both...

&nbsp;&nbsp; How weird, simple, and yet utterly unavoidable. Differential reproduction ensures that beneficial traits will spread rapidly through a gene pool. I can't think of a single way to avoid it.

&nbsp;
 
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Mutations are copying mistakes and therefore are not capable of causing an increase in information and functional complexity. Instead it causes "noise" during the transmission of genetic information which is of random change on information flow and therefore destroys the information.
Not surprisingly, several thousand human diseases are linked to mutations. Therefore it is hard to believe that the chance for a beneficial mutation to occur is great not to say for the whole animal kingdom.

Since 'micro' changes through natural selection eg antibiodic resistence in bacteria are informationally down hill or at best horizontal, they cannot accumulate to give the required (up-hill) changes for 'macro' evolution, regardless of the time period.
 
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LightBearer

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If beneficial mutations are a basis of evolution, what proportion of them are beneficial? There is overwhelming agreement on this point among evolutionists. For example, Carl Sagan said: “Most of them are harmful or lethal.” Peo Koller states: “The greatest proportion of mutations are deleterious to the individual who carries the mutated gene. It was found in experiments that, for every successful or useful mutation, there are many thousands which are harmful.”

Excluding any “neutral” mutations, then, harmful ones outnumber those that are supposedly beneficial by thousands to one. “Such results are to be expected of accidental changes occurring in any complicated organization,” states the Encyclopædia Britannica. That is why mutations are said to be responsible for hundreds of diseases that are genetically determined.

Because of the harmful nature of mutations, the Encyclopedia Americana acknowledged: “The fact that most mutations are damaging to the organism seems hard to reconcile with the view that mutation is the source of raw materials for evolution. Indeed, mutants illustrated in biology textbooks are a collection of freaks and monstrosities and mutation seems to be a destructive rather than a constructive process.” When mutated insects were placed in competition with normal ones, the result was always the same. As G. Ledyard Stebbins observed: “After a greater or lesser number of generations the mutants are eliminated.” They could not compete because they were not improved but were degenerate and at a disadvantage.

In his book The Wellsprings of Life, science writer Isaac Asimov admitted: “Most mutations are for the worse.” However, he then asserted: “In the long run, to be sure, mutations make the course of evolution move onward and upward.” But do they? Would any process that resulted in harm more than 999 times out of 1,000 be considered beneficial? If you wanted a house built, would you hire a builder who, for every correct piece of work, turned out thousands that were defective? If a driver of an&nbsp;car or a pilot&nbsp;made thousands of bad decisions for every good one when driving, would you want to ride or fly with him? If a surgeon made thousands of wrong moves for every right one when operating, would you want him to operate on you?

Geneticist Dobzhansky once said: “An accident, a random change, in any delicate mechanism can hardly be expected to improve it. Poking a stick into the back of your PC, TV&nbsp;or Hi-Fi system will seldom make it work better.” Therefore, ask yourself: Does it seem reasonable that all the amazingly complex cells, organs, limbs and processes that exist in living things were built up by a procedure that tears down?
 
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Morat

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Mutations are copying mistakes and therefore are not capable of causing an increase in information and functional complexity. Instead it causes "noise" during the transmission of genetic information which is of random change on information flow and therefore destroys the information.

&nbsp; Oh bull. Mutations are quite capable of causing an increase in information, by any formal measure that exists. Oh, they can't by the definition of "Information is anything that can't be increased by evolution", but that's a really stupid definition.

Because of the harmful nature of mutations, the Encyclopedia Americana acknowledged: “The fact that most mutations are damaging to the organism seems hard to reconcile with the view that mutation is the source of raw materials for evolution. Indeed, mutants illustrated in biology textbooks are a collection of freaks and monstrosities and mutation seems to be a destructive rather than a constructive process.”

&nbsp;&nbsp; I'd love to see that one fully referenced, including complete context.

When mutated insects were placed in competition with normal ones, the result was always the same. As G. Ledyard Stebbins observed: “After a greater or lesser number of generations the mutants are eliminated.” They could not compete because they were not improved but were degenerate and at a disadvantage.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Or maybe, and I realize this is complex idea, because the mutants weren't adapted to the enviroment?

&nbsp; Just maybe?

&nbsp; *snort*. There's a nice mutation, happened about 400 years ago in a man in Italy, that drastically reduces the amount of 'bad cholesteral' in the bloodstream. His descendents all lead long lives.

&nbsp; Darn mutant.

&nbsp;
 
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Originally posted by Morat
&nbsp;*snort*. There's a nice mutation, happened about 400 years ago in a man in Italy, that drastically reduces the amount of 'bad cholesteral' in the bloodstream. His descendents all lead long lives.

&nbsp; Darn mutant.

&nbsp;

Is this true?
 
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Morat

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<P>Yep. It manifests in a single family in Italy. Geneticists traced it back to a single ancestor living about 400 years ago. The paper is: J Biol Chem 1985 Dec 25;260(30):16321-5. "Apolipoprotein AIMilano. Accelerated binding and dissociation from lipids of a human apolipoprotein variant," by Franceschini G, Vecchio G, Gianfranceschi G, Magani D, Sirtori CR. </P><BR>
<P>Abstract:</P><BR>
<P>
<BR>The lipid binding properties of apolipoprotein (apo) AIMilano, a molecular variant of human apolipoprotein AI, characterized by the Arg173----Cys substitution, was investigated by the use of dimyristoylphosphatidylcholine liposomes. Both the variant AIMilano and normal AI are incorporated to the same extent in stable complexes isolated by gel filtration, showing similar dimensions and stoichiometries. A higher affinity of apo-AIMilano for dimyristoylphosphatidylcholine is suggested by the faster association rate of the variant apoprotein compared to normal AI; similarly, apo-AIMilano is more readily displaced by guanidine hydrochloride from the isolated dimyristoylphosphatidylcholine- apoprotein complexes. When the secondary structure of apo-AIMilano was investigated by spectrofluoroscopy and circular dichroism, a higher fluorescence peak wavelength and a lower alpha-helical content were detected in the variant apoprotein compared to normal AI. The substitution Arg173----Cys in the AIMilano dramatically alters the amphipathic nature of the modified alpha-helical fragment of apoprotein AI. The association rate with lipids is accelerated by an increased exposure of hydrophobic residues. The reduced stability of the lipid-apoprotein particles is possibly mediated by a reduction in the number of helical segments involved in lipid association. The high flexibility of the AIMilano apolipoprotein in the interaction with lipids may explain its accelerated catabolism and the possibly improved uptake capacities for tissue lipids. <A name=append_4></A></P><BR>
<P>
</P>
 
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"No new information" has been discussed before. Read this thread to see how faulty it is.

Here is something from an email I sent to a 15-yro creationist.

INFORMATION
Individuals don't evolve. Populations do. So in linking information theory to evolution, you must consider the information in the population, which you do not do. Biologically, information can refer to different things. Pseudogenes, contain information about evolutionary history but not information that can be selected for. In the context of this discussion, it would be better for us to consider the genetic information underlying traits, with an interest in adaptable traits. It is difficult to determine a way to measure the amount of this information, but one possibility is the size of the proteome. This is the number of unique proteins produced in the population and includes all loci and alleles. Whenever a mutation produces a novel allele, it adds information to the population. In other words, there is a new trait for selection to act upon. Here are two examples of the effects of information in a population.

Jeff knows something about Gina: "Gina is neat." Thus he has information about Gina. Before he leaves town, Jeff replicates this information by telling it to two people, Nick and Randy. Because neither of them pays attention, they don’t replicate the information exactly. Nick thinks "Gina is sweat," and Randy thinks "Gina is near." We can measure the about of information about Gina by the number of non-redundant attributes people ascribe to her. Here, the amount of information about Gina has doubled: from "neat" to "sweat and near." Clearly when we remember that it is the population that’s important to evolution, it is obvious how mutations can add information for selection to act upon.

Take this example retrieved from LocusLink [7], the only difference occurs in the 7th codon (6th amino acid because the first one, 'm,' gets cut off). The letters refer to amino acids [8].
Code:
Human Beta-hemoglobin (HBB)
  1 mvhltpeeks avtalwgkvn vdevggealg rllvvypwtq rffesfgdls tpdavmgnpk
 61 vkahgkkvlg afsdglahld nlkgtfatls elhcdklhvd penfrllgnv lvcvlahhfg
121 keftppvqaa yqkvvagvan alahkyh


HBB-S
  1 mvhltpveks avtalwgkvn vdevggealg rllvvypwtq rffesfgdls tpdavmgnpk
 61 vkahgkkvlg afsdglahld nlkgtfatls elhcdklhvd penfrllgnv lvcvlahhfg
121 keftppvqaa yqkvvagvan alahkyh


HBB-C
  1 mvhltpkeks avtalwgkvn vdevggealg rllvvypwtq rffesfgdls tpdavmgnpk
 61 vkahgkkvlg afsdglahld nlkgtfatls elhcdklhvd penfrllgnv lvcvlahhfg
121 keftppvqaa yqkvvagvan alahkyh

Each allele does not encode the same information since each one produces a distinctly different product. A single point mutation has enough effect on the information contained in the genome that it can determine whether an individual dies from malaria or not. In the presence of malaria, HBB-S is maintained because of heterozygote advantage. However, HBB-C also offers resistance to malaria, but the most fit genotype is the homozygote.[9] It is expected to become the most common allele in parts of Africa if the environment stays the same. These mutations have clearly added new information to the population. Selection then acts on this new information, changing the make up of the population. Thus, evolution happens.

It is important to realize that evolution occurs even if information is lost. It also occurs when information is gain or without any change in the amount of information at all. Thus no-new-information arguments do not actually address evolutionary theory. By focusing on individuals and not populations, no-new-information claims never even get close to disproving evolution. In fact, the actual claim, when applied to biology, is that the information capacity of an individual's genome cannot increase. However, this claim is false because there are known types of mutations that can increase the length of the genome and thus its capacity to hold information. Ernst Mayr discusses this origin of new genes in his latest book.

“Bacteria and even the oldest eukaryotes (protists) have a rather small genome. . . . This raises the question: By what process is a new gene produced? This occurs, most frequently, by the doubling of an existing gene and its insertion in the chromosome in tandem next to the parental gene. In due time the new gene may adopt a new function and the ancestral gene with its traditional function will then be referred to as the orthologous gene. It is through orthologous genes that the phylogeny of genes is traced. The derived gene, coexisting with the ancestral gene, is called paralogous. Evolutionary diversification is, to a large extent, effected by the production of paralogous genes. The doubling sometimes affects not merely a single gene, but a whole chromosome set or even an entire genome.” [10]

7. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/LocusLink/
8. http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/AminoAcid/AA1n2.html
9. Modiano D. et al. (2001) Haemoglobin C protects against clinical plasmodium falciparum malaria. Nature: 414 pp 305-308
10. Mayr E. (2001) What Evolution Is. Basic Books.
 
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Morat

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Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 10, p. 742.

&nbsp;&nbsp;Ah, I see.&nbsp;It's 35 years old, and from a laymen's text. Well, then we should all agree that it means preciesly bollucks against modern science and modern papers, right?

&nbsp;&nbsp; We all agree that laymen level explanations are dumbed down explanations for those without a deep education of the subject?

&nbsp;&nbsp; Because we've had people in here before who think a 55 year old book aimed at people with a high school education is somehow more 'correct' than last month's paper on the subject in Nature.

&nbsp;
 
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