• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

creationist credentials

Status
Not open for further replies.

flaja

Regular Member
Feb 9, 2006
342
6
✟521.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Why do you feel that speculation is not part of science? It is part of the scientific method itself.

I didn’t say that speculation isn’t part of science. I said that there is too much speculation involved in Evolutionism and Creationism.

You seem to be suggesting that interpretation of evidence is not science.

Interpretation of evidence and drawing conclusions that cannot be tested is not science. For example: you cannot rely on radiometric dating if you don’t assume that whatever is to be dated is a closed system, meaning that radioactive materials neither enter nor leave the system for thousands, millions or billions of years. We have no way to test this assumption. You also have to assume that radioactive decay rates have been constant for thousands, millions or billions of years. This assumption cannot be tested either.

What then, is science?

The application of the scientific method, i.e., experimentation, to explain observations made about the natural universe.

(it is also interesting to note that you now don't want to play 'dueling scientists' when your entire argument up to this point is based on exactly that.

No. What I have done is document that Darwinian evidence is very much open to interpretation, even on the part of Darwinists. But if science textbooks are any indication, then you Darwinists are 100% confident that you know what you are talking about. You won’t find dissenting views expressed in public school and college textbooks, but these dissenting views are out there.
 
Upvote 0

notto

Legend
May 31, 2002
11,130
664
55
Visit site
✟29,869.00
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Interpretation of evidence and drawing conclusions that cannot be tested is not science.

Conclusions drawn by the theory of evolution can be tested and they are every day. Again, part of the scientific method.

You really don't understand the independent lines of evidence that lead to the conclusion of evolution and common descent, do you.

They are independent, objective, repeatable, and falsifiable.

You really should familiarize yourself with them before continuing.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

You are simply making claims about the evidence that leads us to the conclusion of evolution and common descent that simply are not true.

You clearly have not done much research on the actual evidence that is used to draw these conclusions.

Go head and read up on it in the above link, then come back and tell us which line of evidence you find speculative and untestable and give us specific reasons why.

The application of the scientific method, i.e., experimentation, to explain observations made about the natural universe.

Evolution is the conclusion that explains the observations we have made about the natural universe related to biology. There is no other scientific conclusion that does so.
 
Upvote 0

flaja

Regular Member
Feb 9, 2006
342
6
✟521.00
Faith
Non-Denom
However, aren't you going back on your earlier position?


No. I am pointing out that the missing link status of Australopithecus is not a universally accept fact in the Darwinist community, but public school students and the public in general are supposed to believe that it is.

For you claimed that fossils were difficult to interpret within an evolutionary framework, did you not?

Fossils are difficult to interpret period due to their fragmentary nature. A case in point came a few years ago when National Geographic did a story about the supposed Darwinian origin of mammals. Darwinists claim that they have found fossils for the earliest mammals, but the fossils are all teeth and bone fragments. But we don’t use bone or teeth as diagnostic characteristics when classifying living organisms as mammals. But this doesn’t stop Darwinists from seeing live birth, mammary glands, fur or warm bloodedness in bones and teeth. When they need a missing link, Darwinists always claim a large amount of license in order to interpret fossils and force them to say what the Darwinists want them to say.
 
Upvote 0

flaja

Regular Member
Feb 9, 2006
342
6
✟521.00
Faith
Non-Denom
There isn't a command here either, not a command 'to reproduce after their kind' anyway.


“Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth”.

You think there is a command for trees 'to reproduce after their kind', though there isn't, and you admit there isn't any such command for the creation of fish, or of beasts, or man, and you think this is an emphasis implying organisms were to reproduce after their kind. That doesn't make sense.

An explicit command, no. An implied command in light of what the plants, definitely.


 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
No. I am pointing out that the missing link status of Australopithecus is not a universally accept fact in the Darwinist community, but public school students and the public in general are supposed to believe that it is.

Firstly, do you have any source more modern than the 1980's that disputes this? After all, new information changes theories, and we've had plenty of new fossil information since then. I wouldn't claim that scientists today are divided about quantum physics by quoting Einstein from the 1920's!

Secondly, suppose that the status of Australopithecus is not universally accepted within the Darwinist community. However, by the same token, humanity's close relationship with the other great apes - the chimpanzees and gorillas - is completely watertight and universally accepted within that same community. Would it not then be right to teach the public that this is in fact true? (And for the third time, genetics is much more powerful evidence for evolution than fossils.)

Fossils are difficult to interpret period due to their fragmentary nature. A case in point came a few years ago when National Geographic did a story about the supposed Darwinian origin of mammals. Darwinists claim that they have found fossils for the earliest mammals, but the fossils are all teeth and bone fragments. But we don’t use bone or teeth as diagnostic characteristics when classifying living organisms as mammals. But this doesn’t stop Darwinists from seeing live birth, mammary glands, fur or warm bloodedness in bones and teeth. When they need a missing link, Darwinists always claim a large amount of license in order to interpret fossils and force them to say what the Darwinists want them to say.

However, the more information we collect, the less license any of that information will have to support a fallacious theory. Don't you agree?

And, to mangle Oscar Wilde (?) : News of the fragmentary nature of fossils has been greatly overrated. For a start, we do use bone and teeth as diagnostic characteristics for mammals:
Living mammal species can be identified by the presence of sweat glands, including those that are specialized to produce milk.

However, other features are required when classifying fossils, since soft tissue glands and some other features are not visible in fossils. Paleontologists use a distinguishing feature that is shared by all living mammals (including monotremes), but is not present in any of the early Triassic synapsids: mammals use two bones for hearing that were used for eating by their ancestors. The earliest synapsids had a jaw joint composed of the articular (a small bone at the back of the lower jaw) and the quadrate (a small bone at the back of the upper jaw). Most reptiles and non-mammalian synapsids use this system including lizards, crocodilians, dinosaurs, (and their descendants the birds), and therapsids (mammal-like "reptiles"). Mammals have a different jaw joint, however, composed only of the dentary (the lower jaw bone which carries the teeth) and the squamosal (another small skull bone). In mammals the quadrate and articular bones have become the incus and malleus bones in the middle ear. Note: "non-mammalian synapsids" above implies that mammals are a sub-group of synapsids, and that is exactly what cladistics says they are.

Mammals also have a double occipital condyle: they have two knobs at the base of the skull which fit into the topmost neck vertebra, and other vertebrates have a single occipital condyle. Paleontologists use only the jaw joint and middle ear as criteria for identifying fossil mammals, as it would be confusing if they found a fossil that had one feature, but not the other.

I don't see how any amount of "license" would be able to find incus and malleus bones where they don't exist. Don't you agree?

But we have much more than that:
The therapsids went through a series of stages, beginning with animals which were very like their pelycosaur ancestors and ending with the Triassic cynodonts, some of which could easily be mistaken for mammals:
  • gradual development of a bony secondary palate.
  • the dentary gradually becomes the main bone of the lower jaw.
  • progress towards an erect limb posture, which would increase the animals' stamina by avoiding Carrier's constraint. But this process was slow and erratic - for example: all herbivorous therapsids retained sprawling limbs (some late forms may have had semi-erect hind limbs); Permian carnivorous therapsids had sprawling forelimbs, and some late Permian ones also had semi-sprawling hindlimbs. In fact modern monotremes still have semi-sprawling limbs.
  • in the Triassic, progress towards the mammalian jaw and middle ear.
  • there is possible evidence of hair in Triassic therapsids, but none for Permian therapsids.
  • some scientists have argued that some Triassic therapsids show signs of lactation.
Again, most of these are features objectively distinguishable from fossils (minus the last point about lactation, I'd agree).
The oldest known marsupial is Sinodelphys, found in 125M-year old early Cretaceous shale in China's northeastern Liaoning Province. The fossil is nearly complete and includes tufts of fur and imprints of soft tissues.
sino3_72.jpg

(Sinodelphys)

Not too difficult to interpret for those with the know-how, don't you think?
The living Eutheria ("true beasts") are all placentals. But the earliest known eutherian, Eomaia, found in China and dated to 125M years ago, has some features which are more like those of marsupials (the surviving metatherians):[11]:
  • Epipubic bones extending forwards from the pelvis, which are not found in any modern placental, but are found in marsupials, monotremes and mammaliformes such as multituberculates. In other words, they appear to be an ancestral feature which subsequently disappeared in the placental lineage.
  • A narrow pelvic outlet, which indicates that the young were very small at birth and therefore pregnancy was short, as in modern marsupials. This suggests that the placenta was a later development.
Unfortunately it is not certain when placental mammals evolved - the earliest undisputed fossils of placentals come from the early Paleocene, after the extinction of the dinosaurs.
416816a-f1.2.jpg

(Eomaia)

Note, as an aside, that (in the last paragraph of the quote) scientists are perfectly willing to admit when they don't know stuff!
Hadrocodium, whose fossils date from the early Jurassic, provides the first clear evidence of fully mammalian jaw joints.
Hadrocodium9.jpg

(Hadroconium)

Sorry ... plenty of fossils. Not all of them fragmentary.

And here's the kicker: all the text was quoted off Wikipedia! Note, friend, that all this information is in the public. All this information is freely available to you and to me and if you wanted to bring evolution down, you should start by reading what scientists have to say first hand (instead of relying on the people who have an agenda against them to tell you what they're doing!).

So I repeat my question to you: what do you think is the strongest piece of evidence that refutes evolution? The strongest piece of evidence that evolution cannot possibly explain?
 
  • Like
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There isn't a command here either, not a command 'to reproduce after their kind' anyway.
“Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth”.

Command highlighted.

An explicit command, no. An implied command in light of what the plants, definitely.
There is no command there for the plants either. As we have seen from all the uses of kind in Gen 1, the command was for the earth and sea to produce different 'kinds' of organisms.

You are ignoring all I pointed out about the common structure of all the 'kind' verses in Genesis, which all talk about God creating, or commanding the earth to make, followed by a description of different creatures, followed by the 'in their kinds'. God commanded the earth to produce different kinds of seed bearing trees, he did not command the trees only to bear seeds according to their kind.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
Bumpity bump.

I like the fact that flaja seems to have nothing to say to the copious mammal fossils I've dug up for foru.ms. Given the amount of new threads and posts he has made since this I doubt that he lacks the time or energy to answer them - though, perhaps, physical reality isn't cooperating?

I also like the fact that he thinks (or heavily implies, at any rate) in the following quote from another thread that I'm a "servant of Satan". As with GR Morton, it is especially interesting whenever creationists use such harsh terms towards those who accept evolution, because Jesus was also called demon-possessed by the religious leaders of his day.

Darwinism:
01. There is no way to scientifically test (by experimentation) any explanation for the origin of the universe, the earth or the life therein. Anything anyone believes is a matter of faith. Darwinism and Creationism (in any form) are equally faith systems, neither being true science.
02. Micro-evolution, i.e., speciation by Darwinian mechanisms, may be possible within the narrow genetic limits of the kinds that God created. As some Creationists speculate, the “kind” of Genesis chapter 1 may indicate a higher level of classification than the species, genus or even the family.
03. Macro-evolution, i.e., the origin of higher taxa or levels of classification higher than the species, is impossible as far as science is concerned. There is no irrefutable observational evidence and absolutely no experimental evidence for macro-evolution. Any and all molecules to man scenarios are little more than science fiction.
04. No one will become a Christian simply because they do not believe in Darwinism. Neither will someone accept Darwinism simply because they reject Christianity. It is imperative that Christians study and understand Darwinism, but only so they can better understand correct Christian doctrine. Christians should not hope to convert Darwinists by disputing with them. The best a Christian can hope for in such disputes is that he can waste Satan’s time by aggravating his servants while also diverting his attention from other Christians who may not be as able to defend the Christian faith.

(emphasis added)
 
Upvote 0

Galle

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
340
39
✟23,166.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'd still like to know what creationist books he's read, and which one has the creationist model he would like to see taught.
I would just like to see an attempt (from any creationist) to create a creationist model that explains evidence and makes predictions.

It's quite telling that whenever creationists are asked for evidence for creationism rather than apologetics against evolution, we never actually get it. Perhaps the reason that flaja can't find "
schools that can train Creationists to be professional geologists, astronomers, paleontologists, physicists et cetera" is that creationism is shallow and at utter odds with reality. Creationists keep telling us that "God did it just like He said in the Bible" but never actually say what that's supposed to mean! They keep saying that "creationism and evolution have the same evidence, just different interpretations", but then they never actually explain any of that evidence. There's simply nothing to creationism besides attacks on legitimate science.
 
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,820
Dallas
✟918,891.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Any and all molecules to man scenarios are little more than science fiction.

I always love the anthropocentrism inherent in this trite little quip from Creationists. Why don't they ever say "chemicals to cats" or "everything to elephants"? They don't even have to be alliterative, they can rhyme - "muck to ducks" or "rocks to... well, maybe rhyme wouldn't be such a good idea.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
Or rocks to, y'know, flocks. Of birds. Of pwetty winged birds that have feathers that look remarkably like those we find on all sorts of dinosaurs -

wait, I'm supposed to be acting like a creationist, right? Ok.

- sorry, pwetty winged birds with absolutely no transitional fossils. That's right, there's a big gap in the evolution of birds! And Feduccia, Feduccia, Feduccia, Feduccia, and Feduccia agree with us that birds couldn't possibly have evolved from dinosaurs! So there! Stop persecuting us!
 
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,820
Dallas
✟918,891.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
- sorry, pwetty winged birds with absolutely no transitional fossils. That's right, there's a big gap in the evolution of birds! And Feduccia, Feduccia, Feduccia, Feduccia, and Feduccia agree with us that birds couldn't possibly have evolved from dinosaurs! So there! Stop persecuting us!

Yeah! Archeopteryx was a lie told by National Geographic and when Creationists pointed out what a fraud it was they had to retract the story. I must have broken their corrupt evoloopy hearts to face up to their deceit!

-------------------------

Seriously though, forget Creationist credentials. I'd be satisfied if your average Creationist, or at least the ones who want to get into the debate would learn a little something about the issue before blasting us with PRATT lists, quote mining or emotional diatribes heavy on rhetoric and light on facts. I'm getting to where I'd be thrilled to see a new poster use discredited arguments not on AiG's "do not use" list because then I'd think they'd at least have done some homework.

Even the laymen in this debate are a study in contrasts. Both TEs and non-Christians who advocate evolution have usually been involved on-line for years and been reading materials/arguments from both sides for at least as long. Folks with history and journalism degrees, civil engineers, computer geeks and theology students all seem to have a better grasp of Creationism and evolution than even the most studied* Creationist.

It's so refreshing when a Creationist comes on and asks serious questions (not leading or loaded ones) or even seems to have a modicum of familiarity with the evidences for standard geology and evolution. Sadly that just doesn't happen very often.

*by which I mean have delved deeply into AiG and ICR pamphlets and webpages.

------------------------------

Addenda:

It looks like 29 Evidences author Douglas Theobald has taken a position at Brandeis University. I found it on lots of pages (including the Brandeis site) but this entry on the Panda's Thumb has a good summary of links.
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/05/congratulations_1.html
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
73
Chicago
✟138,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
There has been some talk here in another thread of Kent Hovind’s academic credentials. But, do people like Hovind have any real choice when it comes to their education? Do we have any legitimately Christian colleges that can train Creationists in fields like geology and paleontology? Why is that we have to have people like Duane Gish write books on fossils when he is a biochemist rather than a geologist or paleontologist?

My biology degree comes from Emory University, which is supposedly a Methodist school. However, Emory is an extremely liberal school and I was not treated fairly by the school’s biology faculty since I am a Creationist. I seriously doubt that any Creationists would ever get a fair shake in any of the schools that are acceptable by the world’s standards. So what choice do Creationists have except to work in fields for which they are not formally trained or to study on their own and invent their credentials?
Take it this way: The best defense is offense.

You are so trained, that you are able to discover and criticize "all the weaknesses" in the evolution theory. Count this as a real blessing. No science is as solid as an iron wall (in fact, all of them are like bamboo curtains). If we are able to break enough link in the system, it will collapse, even the true system is still hard to establish in a scientific way.
 
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,820
Dallas
✟918,891.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Take it this way: The best defense is offense.

If the preferred strategy of Creationists is to be offensive then they have succeeded manificently.

You are so trained, that you are able to discover and criticize "all the weaknesses" in the evolution theory.

You mean like Moonie Jonathan Wells who, while ostensibly writing a book to criticize the weaknesses of evolution, actually wrote one - for those who understand the topics he was discussing - that supported it?

It's one of the great ironys of Creationism that seems to pervade every one of their "arguments", be it Piltdown man or Golden Zebrafish, they don't seem to realize that stripped of Creationist doublespeak the things they object to are actually evidence for evolution.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.