Creationism

Lycurgus89 · Jul 16, 2020

I wanted to reply to this with a question of my own.

Genesis 1 and the Garden story get really contentious, its loaded with implications almost like no other book but the Apocalypse. To me, I don't know, I think the universe might be uncreated or created. I've already talked about how awkward the idea of a eternal God creating or acting in our world seems to me. Thing is, Moses says God created the world in six days, throughout those boring Law books, and that's why Israel had to rest on the seventh day. The ancients had several creation and flood stories. I think the only remarkable difference between Moses' story and others we know, is the fixation he had on a six day creation.

If Moses was inspired to reveal this to his generation of Jews as a pattern, doesn't that make a really strong argument for young earth creationists, who believe in a literal Genesis? Its unusual for society to form around a cosmic pattern they don't actually, fundamentally believe in. That's their origin, their explanation that makes sense to them. I mean, what's more unbelievable; elohim made the world in six days and took a nap on the seventh, or antediluvian patriarchs living for centuries? That seems more unbelievable to me.

ChetSinger · Jul 16, 2020

I'm fine with believing that the antediluvian patriarchs lived for centuries; they were closer to creation than we are and hadn't accumulated the mutations that we have (I once heard there are between 50 to 100 mutations in each human generation).

If you look at the lives of the patriarchs after the flood, their lifetimes shorten dramatically in each generation. Why? I think this might be explained by the population bottleneck that occurred during the flood. Whatever genetic flaws Noah or his wife had would have been passed on to all of their descendants.

Lycurgus89 · Jul 16, 2020

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

This doesn't make any sense to me as establishing a pattern, unless Moses really believed the world was made in six days. If he was the one that wrote the pentateuch, he would know what he's trying to say.

Caliban · Jul 16, 2020

Creationism is untenable because of modern scientific discoveries. The simplest solution is that the writings one the Hebrew Bible were myths comparable to other Ancient Near East creation stories like The Enuma Elish and The Epic of Gilgamesh. I see no reason to think one is fiction and one is fact.

Lycurgus89 · Jul 16, 2020

Caliban said:
Creationism is untenable because of modern scientific discoveries. The simplest solution is that the writings one the Hebrew Bible were myths comparable to other Ancient Near East creation stories like The Enuma Elish and The Epic of Gilgamesh. I see no reason to think one is fiction and one is fact.

That isn't even what's at stake here. If you read my post, the argument is not another creationism: fact or fiction debate. Instead, this thread is about what is meant by six day creation. Moses himself believes, if he's even the author of the pentateuch, the world was created in six days. I just quoted the verse where Moses says God made the world in six days and rested on the seventh. Pretty much everyone ignores it in these arguments. What did Moses from the text believe about his own book? He was only a man (if he lived), but I think its conclusive he believed in a six day creation story.

Caliban · Jul 16, 2020

Lycurgus89 said:
That isn't even what's at stake here. If you read my post, the argument is not another creationism: fact or fiction debate. Instead, this thread is about what is meant by six day creation. Moses himself believes, if he's even the author of the pentateuch, the world was created in six days. I just quoted the verse where Moses says God made the world in six days and rested on the seventh. Pretty much everyone ignores it in these arguments. What did Moses from the text believe about his own book? He was only a man (if he lived), but I think its conclusive he believed in a six day creation story.

Gotcha--sorry about that. I think he believed in six day creation.

Lycurgus89 · Jul 16, 2020

No, that's fine. I know creationism can get heated, so I just wanted to know what people thought Moses believed.

JIMINZ · Jul 16, 2020

Lycurgus89 said:
Instead, this thread is about what is meant by six day creation.

Moses himself believes, the world was created in six days.

Moses says God made the world in six days and rested on the seventh.

What did Moses from the text believe about his own book? I think its conclusive he believed in a six day creation story.

Bingo, but only to a point.

What I mean by that is.

It isn't a matter of what Moses believed or didn't believe, but it is most relevant, "What to God constituted a Day to Him."

If you want to take it in the literal sense it was 6 x 24hr. days.

But can it be taken literally?

What I mean by that is.

Peter wrote in the New Testament.

2 Pet. 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Now we run into a problem, What did Peter believe?
1) What did Peter believe about what he said, as far as the actual period of time represented?
2) Is what Peter said to be taken Literally?

It isn't a matter of what Peter believed or didn't believe, but it is most
relevant, "What to God constituted a Day to Him."

Seems like it will never end doesn't it, but I am coming to the end.

Matthew wrote in relation to a statement made by Jesus when asked a question.

At this point, (It did-does matter) what Matthew believed, about what Jesus said.

Mat. 18:22
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

It is understood that Jesus was saying (NEVER ENDING) otherwise He was saying at the end of 490 times you can take a baseball bat and kill this guy.

Now going back to you original question about the 6 days of Creation spoken of by Moses.

When we read it took 6 days, those days could have been 6 literal days, or 6,000 years, or untold thousands of years, according to the other verses I have placed into evidence explaining Time and it's relevance to God, when Jesus said 70x7 I understand Jesus to be God Incarnate therefore I understand also, He spoke in ways that man in his finite mind (Understanding Knowledge) could not.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Jonaitis · Jul 16, 2020

Lycurgus89 said:
I wanted to reply to this with a question of my own.

Genesis 1 and the Garden story get really contentious, its loaded with implications almost like no other book but the Apocalypse. To me, I don't know, I think the universe might be uncreated or created. I've already talked about how awkward the idea of a eternal God creating or acting in our world seems to me. Thing is, Moses says God created the world in six days, throughout those boring Law books, and that's why Israel had to rest on the seventh day. The ancients had several creation and flood stories. I think the only remarkable difference between Moses' story and others we know, is the fixation he had on a six day creation.

If Moses was inspired to reveal this to his generation of Jews as a pattern, doesn't that make a really strong argument for young earth creationists, who believe in a literal Genesis? Its unusual for society to form around a cosmic pattern they don't actually, fundamentally believe in. That's their origin, their explanation that makes sense to them. I mean, what's more unbelievable; elohim made the world in six days and took a nap on the seventh, or antediluvian patriarchs living for centuries? That seems more unbelievable to me.

The young-earth position is the only consistent view of creation.

When God 'rested' it means that he finished creation, it is an anthropomorphic terminology.

Lycurgus89 · Jul 17, 2020

JIMINZ said:
When we read it took 6 days, those days could have been 6 literal days, or 6,000 years, or untold thousands of years, according to the other verses I have placed into evidence explaining Time and it's relevance to God, when Jesus said 70x7 I understand Jesus to be God Incarnate therefore I understand also, He spoke in ways that man in his finite mind (Understanding Knowledge) could not.

I'll agree that Peter and Jesus think God is eternal, but I'm also not trying to ascertain God's age. I think Moses was pretty clear what a day meant, and as the one who supposedly wrote all this down from God's own words, he should be heard. The six day cosmogony formed the basis of their whole religion, so it'd be a pretty big deal and require more than a common turn of phrase in an unrelated part of the bible to rethink. I don't think you can dismiss Moses without then asking, well, were the plagues of Egypt also made up? How much was embellishment or poetic license?

JIMINZ · Jul 17, 2020

Lycurgus89 said:
I'll agree that Peter and Jesus think God is eternal, but I'm also not trying to ascertain God's age. I think Moses was pretty clear what a day meant, and as the one who supposedly wrote all this down from God's own words, he should be heard. The six day cosmogony formed the basis of their whole religion, so it'd be a pretty big deal and require more than a common turn of phrase in an unrelated part of the bible to rethink. I don't think you can dismiss Moses without then asking, well, were the plagues of Egypt also made up? How much was embellishment or poetic license?

I would guess you don't get it, and from what I have heard from you, I'n not sure if you ever will.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

JIMINZ · Jul 17, 2020

Lycurgus89 said:
I'll agree that Peter and Jesus think God is eternal, but I'm also not trying to ascertain God's age.

I have no idea as to what your talking about, do you?

LightBearer · Jul 17, 2020

Lycurgus89 said:
I wanted to reply to this with a question of my own.

Genesis 1 and the Garden story get really contentious, its loaded with implications almost like no other book but the Apocalypse. To me, I don't know, I think the universe might be uncreated or created. I've already talked about how awkward the idea of a eternal God creating or acting in our world seems to me. Thing is, Moses says God created the world in six days, throughout those boring Law books, and that's why Israel had to rest on the seventh day. The ancients had several creation and flood stories. I think the only remarkable difference between Moses' story and others we know, is the fixation he had on a six day creation.

If Moses was inspired to reveal this to his generation of Jews as a pattern, doesn't that make a really strong argument for young earth creationists, who believe in a literal Genesis? Its unusual for society to form around a cosmic pattern they don't actually, fundamentally believe in. That's their origin, their explanation that makes sense to them. I mean, what's more unbelievable; elohim made the world in six days and took a nap on the seventh, or antediluvian patriarchs living for centuries? That seems more unbelievable to me.

Science and the Genesis Account.

Here's a brief and accurate description of what actually happened during the bible account of creation: https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/was-life-created/science-and-the-genesis-account/

Your very welcome, stay well and safe.

Hawkins · Jul 17, 2020

Science can't even explain what time itself is. Einstein once put, time is not a stable physics unit, speed is instead. Both time and space "give way" to facilitate a stable physics unit we call velocity. In a nutshell, we humans don't actually know what time is. So don't assume so soon.

A scientific model, without the assumption of God, is called multiverse in order to resolve the odds of the formation of our universe. This means, both our earth and our universe is so special that the oddity of its natural formation is next to impossible that a multiverse model is required to explain (or rather explain it away) this oddity. This model however is never falsifiable to be a formal science as we can't verify how such a model works, which requires humans have the ability to go outside of our own universe to speculate.

Lycurgus89 · Jul 17, 2020

LightBearer said:
Science and the Genesis Account.

Here's a brief and accurate description of what actually happened during the bible account of creation: https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/was-life-created/science-and-the-genesis-account/

Your very welcome, stay well and safe.

I don't know what happened. "But, after all, who knows, and who can say whence it all came, and how creation happened? The gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?"

What does Moses say six days mean? The guy who supposedly wrote the books and God talked to directly about creation. When Mo says god made the world in six days, he definitely appears to mean them literally.

Caliban · Jul 17, 2020

LightBearer said:
Science and the Genesis Account.

Here's a brief and accurate description of what actually happened during the bible account of creation: https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/was-life-created/science-and-the-genesis-account/

Your very welcome, stay well and safe.

Pretty sure that isn't what happened. That is refuted by modern science.

BobRyan · Jul 17, 2020

Lycurgus89 said:
I wanted to reply to this with a question of my own.

Genesis 1 and the Garden story get really contentious, its loaded with implications almost like no other book but the Apocalypse. To me, I don't know, I think the universe might be uncreated or created. I've already talked about how awkward the idea of a eternal God creating or acting in our world seems to me. Thing is, Moses says God created the world in six days, throughout those boring Law books, and that's why Israel had to rest on the seventh day.

Indeed - in the Bible that is the creation doctrine - the doctrine on origins for all life on Earth.

Lycurgus89 said:
If Moses was inspired to reveal this to his generation of Jews as a pattern, doesn't that make a really strong argument for young earth creationists, who believe in a literal Genesis?

Absolutely - in Exodus 20 it is in legal code ... in the Sabbath commandment

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

which matches with Genesis 2

1. "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Lycurgus89 said:
Its unusual for society to form around a cosmic pattern they don't actually, fundamentally believe in.

A group of newly freed slaves from Egypt was not about to go to Sinai and read the Ten Commandments - see that Sabbath commandment and then 'read into it' -- Darwinism or evolutionism.

They were nowhere near that focused on evolution.

Lycurgus89 said:
That's their origin, their explanation that makes sense to them.

yep.

I mean, what's more unbelievable; elohim made the world in six days and took a nap on the seventh, or antediluvian patriarchs living for centuries? That seems more unbelievable to me.

The Bible is filled with the acts of God.

The virgin birth where God the Son is incarnate as a human.
The bodily resurrection of Christ
The bodily ascension of Christ
The act of God in making the world in 7 days.

Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 were designed to "live forever" - but death entered the world through sin. And so instead of "living forever" they died at 900+ years of age as did their descendants.

Over time and especially after conditions on Earth changed after the flood - the life spans went from 900+ to 500+ down to 300+ down to 120+ and then 70+

Silly Uncle Wayne · Jul 19, 2020

Lycurgus89 said:
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

This doesn't make any sense to me as establishing a pattern, unless Moses really believed the world was made in six days. If he was the one that wrote the pentateuch, he would know what he's trying to say.

Well whoever wrote the Torah clearly knew what they they were trying to say. The 10-commandments make the Sabbath a holy day also, establishing as law what was required in Genesis.

I'm not sure what point you were making here.

Silly Uncle Wayne · Jul 19, 2020

Caliban said:
Creationism is untenable because of modern scientific discoveries. The simplest solution is that the writings one the Hebrew Bible were myths comparable to other Ancient Near East creation stories like The Enuma Elish and The Epic of Gilgamesh. I see no reason to think one is fiction and one is fact.

Better to Say Young-Earth Creationism is untenable because of modern scientific discoveries, Creationism would happily say that God created those sciences for people to discover.

Which one do you see as fiction and which as fact then?

JIMINZ · Jul 19, 2020

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Well whoever wrote the Torah clearly knew what they they were trying to say. The 10-commandments make the Sabbath a holy day also, establishing as law what was required in Genesis.

I'm not sure what point you were making here.

There isn't any point, it's only a rant.

Have a good day./night

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