Creationism

payt01 said:

Actually, i'm going to claim that the universe is just 5 minutes old, and that everything was created in it's current form, including the illusion of your memories that you've been around for quite a while.

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That's been talked to death too, you can't proove anything, but we can look at evidence and draw logical conclusions.

Logic said:

It all seems like a farse to me, the world is 6,000 years old, jesus was born of a virgin......

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precisely the issue...

there are a couple christians in here, Im sure they know who they are, who have not only decided Genesis 1 is incorrect, and that the flood was local....but now theyve branched out and are taking things such a Jesus casting out legion as allegory when it is not presented as such.

I heard one ''christian'' girl in here say that virgin birth was ''myth''....

I fail to see the point of claiming the name of Christ when some folks dont even accept all of the foundational teachings of Christ or the apostles......whats the point???

Follower of Christ said:

precisely the issue...

there are a couple christians in here, Im sure they know who they are, who have not only decided Genesis 1 is incorrect, and that the flood was local....but now theyve branched out and are taking things such a Jesus casting out legion as allegory when it is not presented as such.

I heard one ''christian'' girl in here say that virgin birth was ''myth''....

I fail to see the point of claiming the name of Christ when some folks dont even accept all of the foundational teachings of Christ or the apostles......whats the point???

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The point is to find the love of God and not to get so hung up on the many-times-translated, voted on, edited, Bible. And instead, focus on the man Jesus and his love to everyone. Especially when God obviously put the contrary evidence there in the first place. We see it with the Hubble Telescope. We see it in carbon dating. We see it in acheological digs.

God put it everywhere, and its obvious if God gave us these powers of discovery, we should not forgo them for the ancient writings of one book. Instead, we should allow the progression of ideas and knowledge that are obtained through sources other than the Bible, since history, and God, have shown such progress to be a good thing.

BTW, Follower of Christ, do you believe the Earth is round or flat?

yeah

to be perfectly honest here

anyone who thinks that the earth was created in the beginning, and is 6000 years old
is a bit... nuts

and FoC honestly puts the picture of Donald Duck in a straight jacket (jacket for cwazy people) in his avatar

As far as I'm concerned, the creation evolution debate is over, it's been over, some people won't change. I think debating the existance of God(s) and morality and such is more entertaining.

The Bible also mentions 4 corners of the Earth. If someone is to take the Bible literally, then why stop there? Why not believe the Earth is flat has four corners?

DrunkenMaster said:

yeah

to be perfectly honest here

anyone who thinks that the earth was created in the beginning, and is 6000 years old
is a bit... nuts

and FoC honestly puts the picture of Donald Duck in a straight jacket (jacket for cwazy people) in his avatar

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To be perfectly honest HERE...

Do you need to resort to insulting personal attacks?

DrunkenMaster said:

yeah

to be perfectly honest here

anyone who thinks that the earth was created in the beginning, and is 6000 years old
is a bit... nuts

and FoC honestly puts the picture of Donald Duck in a straight jacket (jacket for cwazy people) in his avatar

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Thats Howard the Duck, thank you very much

2001MustangGT said:

The Bible also mentions 4 corners of the Earth. If someone is to take the Bible literally, then why stop there? Why not believe the Earth is flat has four corners?

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Figures of speech......Im sure you used them all the time.....

Follower of Christ said:

Figures of speech......Im sure you used them all the time.....

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And that 6 day thing is also just a figure of speech

the global flood is also just a figure of speech

the whole "god created the universe" thing is just a figure of speech.

Seriously, what makes this "4 corners" thing a slang term or a figure of speech ,or a metaphor, or whatever you use to explain it way... but all these other passages must be taken word for word, with no "figure of speech" label possible?

Logic said:

As far as I'm concerned, the creation evolution debate is over, it's been over, some people won't change

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Well, I did change a few years back....99 or so.......I discarded evolution and old earth like yesterdays trash...

2001MustangGT said:

And that 6 day thing is also just a figure of speech

the global flood is also just a figure of speech

the whole "god created the universe" thing is just a figure of speech.

Seriously, what makes this "4 corners" thing a slang term or a figure of speech ,or a metaphor, or whatever you sue to explain it way... but all these other passages must be taken word for word, with no "figure of speech" label possible?

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Sorry, but Genesis 1 is not written in the same manner.....the text goes out of its way to define a day and then makes sure the reader understands that those days are being used....''an evening and a morning"

If the Flood was local, then God is a liar as He promised to never do that again.......all we have to do is look at the news any day of the week to see a local flood destoying and killing...

How do you propose that ALL land life was killed in a local flood

Follower of Christ said:

Well, I did change a few years back....99 or so.......I discarded evolution and old earth like yesterdays trash...

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too bad you threw out the wrong one.

and why can you take "4 corners of the earth" as a figure of speech, but the whole 6 day creation is not a figure of speech?

What qualifies one passage to be taken not literally, and another literal word for word?

2001MustangGT said:

too bad you threw out the wrong one.

and why can you take "4 corners of the earth" as a figure of speech, but the whole 6 day creation is not a figure of speech?

What qualifies one passage to be taken not literally, and another literal word for word?

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see above.....

Are any of these figures of speech?

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22)

Likewise, you wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives' conduct when they observe your reverent and chaste behavior. (1 Peter 3:1-2)

When the Lord has pity on Jacob and again chooses Israel and settles them on their own soil, the aliens will join them and be counted with the house of Jacob. The house of Israel will take them and bring them along to its place, and possess them as male and female slaves on the Lord's soil, making captives of its captors and ruling over its oppressors. (Isaiah 14:1-2)

If a man lies in sexual intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them shall be cut off from their people, because they have laid bare the flowing fountain of her blood. (Leviticus 20:18)

Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse. (1 Peter 2:18)

Slaves are to be under the control of their masters in all respects, giving them satisfaction, not talking back to them or stealing from them, but exhibiting completely good faith, so as to adorn the doctrine of God our savior in every way. (Titus 2:9-10)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

Logic said:

Are any of these figures of speech?

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22)

Likewise, you wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives' conduct when they observe your reverent and chaste behavior. (1 Peter 3:1-2)

When the Lord has pity on Jacob and again chooses Israel and settles them on their own soil, the aliens will join them and be counted with the house of Jacob. The house of Israel will take them and bring them along to its place, and possess them as male and female slaves on the Lord's soil, making captives of its captors and ruling over its oppressors. (Isaiah 14:1-2)

If a man lies in sexual intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them shall be cut off from their people, because they have laid bare the flowing fountain of her blood. (Leviticus 20:18)

Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse. (1 Peter 2:18)

Slaves are to be under the control of their masters in all respects, giving them satisfaction, not talking back to them or stealing from them, but exhibiting completely good faith, so as to adorn the doctrine of God our savior in every way. (Titus 2:9-10)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

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Those all look pretty literal to me.....altho most of them are old convenant and do not apply......

your point is

Follower of Christ said:

Sorry, but Genesis 1 is not written in the same manner.....the text goes out of its way to define a day and then makes sure the reader understands that those days are being used....''an evening and a morning"

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and the 4 corners was clearly specifically talking about the cornered flat edges of the planet.

If the Flood was local, then God is a liar as He promised to never do that again.......all we have to do is look at the news any day of the week to see a local flood destoying and killing...

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the flood was local, if ther was any flood at all.

How do you propose that ALL land life was killed in a local flood

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It wasnt. A global flood never happened. I dont wanna get too much into details, but...

First- the global flood supposedly (Scripturally) covered the planet, and Mount Everest is 8,848 meters tall. The diameter of the earth at the equator, on the other hand, is 12,756.8 km. All we have to do is calculate the volume of water to fill a sphere with a radius of the Earth + Mount Everest; then we subtract the volume of a sphere with a radius of the Earth. Now, I know this won't yield a perfect result, because the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, but it will serve to give a general idea about the amounts involved.

So, here are the calculations:
First, Everest
V= 4/3 * pi * r cubed
= 4/3 * pi * 6387.248 km cubed
= 1.09151 x 10 to the 12 cubic kilometres (1.09151x102 km3)
Now, the Earth at sea level
V = 4/3 * pi * r cubed
= 4/3 * pi * 6378.4 km cubed
= 1.08698 x 10 to the 12 cubic kilometres (1.08698x1012 km3)

The difference between these two figures is the amount of water needed to just cover the Earth:

4.525 x 10 to the ninth cubic kilometres (4.525x1009 km3) Or, to put into a more sensible number, 4,525,000,000,000 cubic kilometres
Some interesting physical effects of all that water, too. How much weight do you think that is? Well, water at STP weighs in at 1 gram/cubic centimetre (by definition)...so,
4.252x1009 km3 of water,
X 106 (= cubic meters),
X 106 (= cubic centimetres),
X 1 g/cm3 (= grams),
X 10-3 (= kilograms),
(turn the crank)
equals 4.525E+21 kg.

Ever wonder what the effects of that much weight would be? Well, many times in the near past (i.e., the Pleistocene), continental ice sheets covered many of the northern states and most all of Canada. For the sake of argument, let's call the area covered by the Wisconsinian advance (the latest and greatest) was 10,000,000,000 (ten million) km2, by an average thickness of 1 km of ice (a good estimate...it was thicker in some areas [the zones of accumulation] and much thinner elsewhere [at the ablating edges]). Now, 1.00x1007 km2 X 1 km thickness equals 1.00E+07 km3 of ice.

Now, remember earlier that we noted that it would take 4.525x1009 km3 of water for the flood? Well, looking at the Wisconsinian glaciation, all that ice (which is frozen water, remember?) would be precisely 0.222% [...do the math](that's zero, decimal point, two hundred twenty two thousandths) percent of the water needed for the flood.

Well, the Wisconsinian glacial state ended about 25,000 YBP (years before present), as compared for the approximately supposedly 4,000 YBP flood event.

Due to these late Pleistocene glaciations (some 21,000 years preceding the supposed flood), the mass of the ice has actually depressed the crust of the Earth. That crust, now that the ice is gone, is slowly rising (called glacial rebound); and this rebound can be measured, in places (like northern Wisconsin), in centimetres/year. Sea level was also lowered some 10's of meters due to the very finite amount of water in the Earth's hydrosphere being locked up in glacial ice sheets (geologists call this glacioeustacy).

Now, glacial rebound can only be measured, obviously, in glaciated terranes, i.e., the Sahara is not rebounding as it was not glaciated during the Pleistocene. This lack of rebound is noted by laser ranged interferometery and satellite geodesy [so there], as well as by geomorphology. Glacial striae on bedrock, eskers, tills, moraines, rouche moutenees, drumlins, kame and kettle topography, fjords, deranged fluvial drainage and erratic blocks all betray a glacier's passage. Needless to say, these geomorphological expressions are not found everywhere on Earth (for instance, like the Sahara). Therefore, although extensive, the glaciers were a local (not global) is scale. Yet, at only 0.222% the size of the supposed flood, they have had a PROFOUND and EASILY recognizable and measurable effects on the lands.

The flood of Noah, supposedly global in extent, supposedly much more recent, and supposedly orders of magnitude larger in scale; has exactly zero measurable effects and zero evidence for it's occurrence.

Further, Mount Everest extends through 2/3 of the Earth's atmosphere. Since two forms of matter can't occupy the same space, we have an additional problem with the atmosphere. Its current boundary marks the point at which gasses of the atmosphere can escape the Earth's gravitational field. Even allowing for partial dissolving of the atmosphere into our huge ocean, we'd lose the vast majority of our atmosphere as it is raised some 5.155 km higher by the rising flood waters; and it boils off into space. (approx 2/3 worth)

Yet, we still have a quite thick and nicely breathable atmosphere. In fact, ice cores from Antarctica (as well as deep-sea sediment cores) which can be geochemically tested for paleoatmospheric constituents and relative gas ratios; and these records extend well back into the Pleistocene, far more than the supposed 4,000 YBP flood event. Strange that this major loss of atmosphere, atmospheric fractionation (lighter gasses (oxygen, nitrogen, fluorine, neon, etc.) would have boiled off first in the flood-water rising scenario, enriching what remained with heavier gasses (argon, krypton, xenon, radon, etc.)), and massive extinctions from such global upheavals are totally unevidenced in these cores.

In order to flood the Earth to the Genesis requisite depth of 10 cubits (~15' or 5 m.) above the summit of Mt. Ararat (16,900' or 5,151 m AMSL), it would obviously require a water depth of 16,915' (5,155.7 m), or over three miles above mean sea level. In order to accomplish this little task, it would require the previously noted additional 4.525 x 109 km3 of water to flood the Earth to this depth. The Earth's present hydrosphere (the sum total of all waters in, on and above the Earth) totals only 1.37 x 109 km3. Where would this additional 4.525 x 109 km3 of water come from? It cannot come from water vapour (i.e., clouds) because the atmospheric pressure would be 840 times greater than standard pressure of the atmosphere today. Further, the latent heat released when the vapour condenses into liquid water would be enough to raise the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere to approximately 3,570 C (6,460 F).

Let's look into that from a physical standpoint. To flood the Earth, we have already seen that it would require 4.252 x 109 km3 of water with a mass of 4.525 x 1021 kg. When this amount of water is floating about the Earth's surface, it stored an enormous amount of potential energy, which is converted to kinetic energy when it falls, which, in turn, is converted to heat upon impact with the Earth. The amount of heat released is immense:

Potential energy: E=M*g*H, where
M = mass of water,
g = gravitational constant and,
H = height of water above surface.

Now, going with the Genesis version of the Noachian Deluge as lasting 40 days and nights, the amount of mass falling to Earth each day is 4.525 x 1021 kg/40 24 hr. periods. This equals 1.10675 x 1020 kilograms daily. Using H as 10 miles (16,000 meters), the energy released each day is 1.73584 x 1025 joules. The amount of energy the Earth would have to radiate per m2/sec is energy divided by surface area of the Earth times number of seconds in one day. That is: e = 1.735384 x 1025/(4*3.14159* ((6386)2*86,400)) = 391,935.0958 j/m2/s.

Currently, the Earth radiates energy at the rate of approximately 215 joules/m2/sec and the average temperature is 280 K. Using the Stefan- Boltzman 4'th power law to calculate the increase in temperature:
E (increase)/E (normal) = T (increase)/T4 (normal)
E (normal) = 215
E (increase) = 391,935.0958
T (normal) = 280.

Turn the crank, and T (increase) equals 1800 K!!!!

The temperature would thusly rise 1800 K, or 1,526.84 C (that's 2,780.33 F...lead melts at 880 F...ed note). It would be highly unlikely that anything short of fused quartz would survive such an onslaught. Also, the water level would have to rise at an average rate of 5.5 inches/min; and in 13 minutes would be in excess of 6' deep.

Finally, at 1800 K water would not exist as liquid. (neither would much of anything else, especially biological matter)

God cooled the Earth off too. What's so hard to understand?

Logic said:

God cooled the Earth off too. What's so hard to understand?

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Why cause a flood to kill everyone only to cool off the earth too and hide the evidence of the event? Needlessley complex there, and totally absurd. If god can just kill babies with a word then why not make the people all drop dead expect for Noahs family?

The global flood is silly for all the geological reasons I listed above.

2001MustangGT said:

Why cause a flood to kill everyone only to cool off the earth too and hide the evidence of the event? Needlessley complex there, and totally absurd. If god can just kill babies with a word then why not make the people all drop dead expect for Noahs family?

The global flood is silly for all the geological reasons I listed above.

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Thanks for posting all that.......Im sure I didnt pay much more attention than the last 300 times Ive had it all jammed in my face