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Creationism or Evolution?

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EbonNelumbo

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I want some facts, not "because it is" type reasons that people believe in evolution. Give me some cold hard facts people! I am Creationist all teh way and I want to know what is so 'believable' that is misleading so many :scratch:
 

rmwilliamsll

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The best evidence i am aware of for the continuity of human beings and the great apes are the cluster of related theories to do with pseudogenes and the various (mostly RNA) viral insertions.
see:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/molgen/

most everything is available off this introductory page.

or from a more morphological position try:
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html
and up one directory level from this.

all of which argue persuasively that human beings share common descent with the great apes from a common ancestor roughly 5M years ago.
the best book on human evolution i am aware of is
_where did we come from?_
(_ Where Do We Come From?: The Molecular Evidence for Human Descent_ by Jan Klein, Naoyuki Takahata_)
my review is at: http://www.livejournal.com/users/rmwilliamsjr/2844.html
 
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El Guapo

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To be as brief and straightforward as possible I will simply submit the idea of the twin nested heirarchy. The theory of common decent (which is what I assume you mean by "evolution") has obviously been around a good long time. Vast family trees of sorts were devised to explain the evolution of various species, genera, ect into one another, all in accordance with the fossil record (or what exists of it at least). The sheer fact that all of life could so easily be arranged in such a fashion was a good start for the theory of common decent.

Then along came genetics, however, and everything hypothesized by common descent proved to be true. (I'm sure there were some minor modifications as happens to all theories upon testing, but nothing major.) The organisms that were theorized to be the most closely related because of their placement in the fossil record also turned out to be the most closely related upon examination of their DNA. If you examined all the chromosomes of a salamander, they would be more closely related to those of a snake than those of a human being. The fact then that you could develop family trees either through genetics or the fossil record and have them both overlap is simply remarkable. There is no other, currently, satisfactory explanation for it.

I don't know how well I explained that, but if you have any questions feel free to ask.
 
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Underdog77

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rmwilliamsll said:
Unless they reall really want to, is anyone going to read all that? My goodness they ought to make a readers digest version. I only read it because I had allow the opposition to state their evidence. But I'm still trying to digest that sucker, whew!
 
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Underdog77

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El Guapo said:
To be as brief and straightforward as possible I will simply submit the idea of the twin nested heirarchy. The theory of common decent (which is what I assume you mean by "evolution") has obviously been around a good long time. Vast family trees of sorts were devised to explain the evolution of various species, genera, ect into one another, all in accordance with the fossil record (or what exists of it at least).
Trying to dodge the absence of transitional fossils?

The sheer fact that all of life could so easily be arranged in such a fashion was a good start for the theory of common decent.
Explain that a little better please.
Then along came genetics, however, and everything hypothesized by common descent proved to be true.
I thinketh not. Tell me three hypothesis points that were proved correct by genetics.

The organisms that were theorized to be the most closely related because of their placement in the fossil record also turned out to be the most closely related upon examination of their DNA. If you examined all the chromosomes of a salamander, they would be more closely related to those of a snake than those of a human being.[/QUOET]

Although I have much scientific knowledge I have no degree and yet I could have told you myself without looking at the genes that a salamander's DNA and a snake's DNA are more alike than salamanders and humans. How? Just look at them! What looks more alike? The salamander and the snake, which logically means they share more in common than the humans do with them. It didn't take a genious to figure that one out.

The fact then that you could develop family trees either through genetics or the fossil record and have them both overlap is simply remarkable. There is no other, currently, satisfactory explanation for it.
I don't think there is a single place on earth that depicts the fossil record according to evolution. If you have links or other info please show me.
 
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theFijian

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rmwilliamsll

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El Guapo said:
To be as brief and straightforward as possible I will simply submit the idea of the twin nested heirarchy. The theory of common decent (which is what I assume you mean by "evolution") has obviously been around a good long time. Vast family trees of sorts were devised to explain the evolution of various species, genera, ect into one another, all in accordance with the fossil record (or what exists of it at least). The sheer fact that all of life could so easily be arranged in such a fashion was a good start for the theory of common decent.

Then along came genetics, however, and everything hypothesized by common descent proved to be true. (I'm sure there were some minor modifications as happens to all theories upon testing, but nothing major.) The organisms that were theorized to be the most closely related because of their placement in the fossil record also turned out to be the most closely related upon examination of their DNA. If you examined all the chromosomes of a salamander, they would be more closely related to those of a snake than those of a human being. The fact then that you could develop family trees either through genetics or the fossil record and have them both overlap is simply remarkable. There is no other, currently, satisfactory explanation for it.

I don't know how well I explained that, but if you have any questions feel free to ask.


nested hierarchies are valuable for several reasons to persuade someone of the validity of evolutionary theory.

this is something i wrote on the issues awhile back

nested hierarchies
-=research links=-
http://www.accessexcellence.org/BF/bf02/scott/bf02a02.html elementary, short, but a starting point
http://www.kk.org/outofcontrol/ch3-d.html not biological but interesting, part of a larger book
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/evolution/blfaq_evolution_evidence13.htm short but to the point best intro so far
It is interesting to note that things that are actually designed by conscious "intelligent designers" (such as people) don't fit into a pattern of "nested hierarchy" (see main text). This has to do with the ways real "intelligent designers" actually design things. Consider, for instance, things like cars, airplanes, or musical instruments: new designs (or new "generations" of designs) of such objects are often said to "evolve" over time thanks to modifications of pre-existing models undertaken by their conscious human designers. New models are "derived" from earlier generations of cars, instruments, etc., and they typically combine some new features with a mix of older features retained from earlier models. And yet, unlike biological species or human languages, consciously designed objects resist any attempts to consistently classify them into nested hierarchies. Why is that? The reason is simply that "intelligent designers" are not limited to using and modifying only whatever components were available in the immediately preceding generation of designs; they can (and do) innovate and enrich their designs by tapping into a number of different evolutionary lines (not just closely "related" ones) and "skipping around" and sampling simultaneously among a number of different prior generations, not just the immediately preceding generation. In this way, conscious designers will often construct a novel design out of models which had not been at all closely related.
from: http://rwor.org/a/v24/1161-1170/1170/evol5 box.htm

this is my point exactly. In software writing you take modules from WHEREVER, you are not limited to the ancestor(s) of the program you are working on. Rather you are limited by your ability to know the field and to grab what you can tailor to fit the current needs. This in biology would form chimeras, which does NOT happen in real life, except deliberately through man's intervention with genetic manipulation. (exception is maybe viral transposons with remnant genes from first host )

7) Evidence of evolution of species from the fact that the features of living organisms fit into a system of "nested" hierarchical classification

This sounds complicated but it really isn't. As previously mentioned, a "nested hierarchy" simply refers to the pattern of "group within group" classification (sort of like those Russian dolls that fit one inside the other) that all living species naturally fit into whenever you draw up phylogenies ("family trees") merely on the basis of a succession of shared characteristics. It turns out that only things that are genuinely related to each other by lines of historical descent (in which ancestors pass on some features to descendants, from one generation to the next) will consistently fit into a pattern of "nested hierarchy." If, on the other hand, you try to force things that are not genuinely connected by lines of actual descent and inheritance into such a pattern of nested hierarchy (things that have not actually evolved one out of the other over generations on the basis of some form of inheritable variation), you simply won't be able to do it: unrelated objects just can't be made to fit into such a consistent "group within group" pattern. For instance, you can make a simple list of the names and features of all the known chemical elements, or you can make a simple list of all the known minerals and their features. But what you can't do is connect the basic chemical elements to each other in any kind of "group within group" hierarchy on the basis of shared features, and you can't do that with the different kinds of mineral elements either. Why not? Because chemical elements didn't evolve out of pre-existing chemical elements, and minerals didn't evolve out of pre-existing minerals. There is therefore no way to establish family ties which could successfully group these objects into a nested hierarchy of bigger and bigger groups simply on the basis of sets of features they have in common.
from: http://rwor.org/a/v24/1161-1170/1170/evol5.htm#Box 1 return the parent essay of the previous link

intro to hierarchy theory, lots of references: http://psycho-ontology.net/hierarchies/
university course intro to terms including clade: http://biology.fullerton.edu/courses/biol_403/Web/Hierarchies.html
this is what i am looking for, glance at the rest, prepare to read this one: http://www.ping.be/spr/c8a.htm

The big point is that the nested hierarchical structure supports common descent, and is evidence against design, because a designer would have a far larger repertory of modules to swap in as needed. For instance, why doesn't man have the eyes of an owl, the speed of a cheeta, the hearing of a dog? Why don't we see chimeras in nature, since they are so popular and pervasive in human cultures? We find the ideas of chimera attractive and natural because of the way we think and design. Why didnt God do things this way as well? but rather severely limited Himself to only the raw material at hand, no swapping from other branches of the tree of life that had really good solutions and designs already.

note the big issue is that chimeras don't exist in nature. As man designs, especially in the engineering and software fields, chimeras are not just acceptable but are in fact the preferred way to work----don't reinvent the wheel.


edit after:
http://users.skynet.be/huw/c8a.htm
Chapter 8 a
Structural Hierarchy in Evolution

moved from above, a must read book on the topic
 
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El Guapo

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To address Underdog77's concerns,

First, you point to an alleged lack of transitional fossils. TheFijan has already provided you w/ an excellent website, but since I imagine a majority of people reading this thread will not visit that website I will try and summarize one of the examples. As it is easiest to see when there is a series as opposed to a simple pair of species or genera, I'd recommend researching further the evolution of pre-whale terrestrial mammals into the whales we have today (or at least their immediate ancestors). Over the course of numerous fossil finds you can witness the gradual replacement of legs for walking w/ fins for swimming. Additionally in many of them it is also possible to see the modification and unifcation of the nostrils into what would become the blowhole and additional modifications in the ears so as to make the animals capable of sustained deep sea diving. If you wish to know all the scientific latin names for all the creatures involved those can be provided as well.

Second, you request three hypothesis points that were confirmed by genetics. Unfortunately as I do not have a university library's card catalog inside of my head I cannot provide immediate reference to such a specific question. Needless to say, though, it is irrelevent. Look at any two species of the same genera. Their DNA will be more closely related to one another than to any species of another genera. Alternatively, take any two genera of the same family. Their DNA too will be more closely related to one another than to any genera of another family. That fact that this is true and a "tree of life" can be developed from them overlapping the tree of life devised from cladistics and the fossil record pretty much confirms all the "hypothesis points" or nodes of the latter family tree.

Third, you make the claim that salamanders have genetics more similar to snakes than humans because they are built similarly. Heh, I had a feeling someone would bring this up, but I didn't wanna detract from my previous post w/ it. Look at the seal's fin and a human's hand. They don't look alike nor serve the same functions or operate in similar matters. Despite this, the genes for a seal's fin are far more similar to the gene's encoding a man's hand than the genes encoding the fin of any other ocean going nonmammalian animal. This is because analagous structures, or structures that look and act alike, are not neccesarily homologous structures, or structures that are in fact closely related genetically. In fact, if one were to simply to research further, one would find that analagous structures are only homologous structures when the two organisms are theorized to be very closely related evolutionarily. Coincidence? Ooooh I'll leave that up to you guys.

And lastly, you asked me to further explain something I was somewhat fuzzy on. When I stated that "The sheer fact that all of life could so easily be arranged in such a fashion was a good start for the theory of common decent," I meant this. All of Earth's organisms can be grouped together in relation to one another because many groups of organisms share similar traits. Fish never have mammary glands. Birds never have gills. So on and so forth. If no such classification along these lines were possible then common descent would not be a tenable theory because there would be no need for common ancestors for nonexistant groupings. Does this make more sense?

And lastly lastly, as I review your post one more time, you ask me to share with you where the fossil record is as according to common descent. Well... quite simply, everywhere. Sure there will be a few instances here and there where things will get mixed up due to explainable natural reasons, but the vast majority of the planet can be excavated and the fossils found will be in accordance with the fossil record. I would challenge you in fact to provide me with an example where the fossil record is not as common descent claims. Can you?
 
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Chi_Cygni

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theFijian said:
When are you guys going to give that up? There are transitional fossils!!

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

Or are you trying to dodge?
Many people on here have posted list after list of transitional fossils, just like the list after list of observed speciation.

Why do Creationists then turn around and repeat the same tired old adages such as the above?

Is it a case of fingers in the ears and uttering na na nas like small children do?
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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In one's more cynical moments one is often tempted to the conclusion that it's intentional dishonesty.

I divide creationists into three groups:

1) Originators - Hovind, Gish, Morris et al.. I find it hard to believe these guys don't know they are spreading misinformation. Their ability to make false statements and inability to retract them when it's pointed out is well documented.

2) Disseminators - Most of the websites regurgitating the nonsense the Originators produce would be in this category, as would creationist pulpits. I don't think that these people are intentionally dishonest, but rather completely lack critical faculties (or choose not to use them) when they hear things they like to hear.

3) Rank and File - Final recipients of creationist bilge sitting in the pews. They can come on here and say "there are no transitional fossils" because their pastor said that Gish said so. That's sufficient evidence. All the ones we show them must not be transitional at all, even if they can't say why.

Why am I letting myself be dragged back into this?
 
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Freedom777

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
No. It's a case of dishonesty.

Creationists lie. They can't help it. That's why I don't bother arguing against them any more. You can't win against a series of lies.
Is it all lies? Or is it just controdictory towards an evolutionary framework?
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Freedom777 said:
Is it all lies? Or is it just controdictory towards an evolutionary framework?
When someone makes a claim that they know to be false, it is a lie.

Saying something wrong the first time is ignorance. Saying it again after being corrected is dishonesty.
 
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El Guapo

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Karl the LB, while I agree that some creationists are, in a sense, "beyond help", I think that many aren't. Especially the ones that are not quite so vocal or are observing from a distance and may be new to the whole raucous. Because of that I think, if you (not necessarily you you here, but a generic you) have the time and the charity to set their lies or at least ignorance straight, you should.

I specifically say this because I was previously hard core into creation science and it was mostly the patient corrections of another that eventually helped me to realize my errors.
 
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pressingon

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At the risk of being drawn into another debate (although that's not my intent), I believe that the majority of creationists honestly believe that the list of fossils considered by evolutionists (theistic or otherwise) do not provide adequate evidence to convince them that evolution is true. It's not a matter of "lies", but a matter of either a differing interpretation of evidence or simple skepticism (in the sense of insufficient evidence to convince). I know that's the way I feel about the issue, and I once believed that evolution was 100% true (that's another post for another day though).

Anyway, what I really want to address in this post is the intense disrespect for opposing viewpoints I continue to see in this forum. Inflammatory comments such as those made in this thread do nothing but provoke arguments. Understanding between the two viewpoints becomes nearly impossible with such rhetoric.

Note that I don't intend to direct these comments toward one side of this issue or the other. Both sides are guilty of holding such pride in self that we believe we are absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, right in our beliefs regarding God's method of creation. That misplaced pride often leads to bickering, belittling and berating of those who don't share our viewpoints.

All that being said, I'd like to ask everyone to read their posts before they hit that "submit message" button, and ask yourself a simple question: "does the wording of my post glorify Christ?" If you can't honestly answer that, "yes", do you really need to post it?
 
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herev

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pressingon said:
At the risk of being drawn into another debate (although that's not my intent), I believe that the majority of creationists honestly believe that the list of fossils considered by evolutionists (theistic or otherwise) do not provide adequate evidence to convince them that evolution is true. It's not a matter of "lies", but a matter of either a differing interpretation of evidence or simple skepticism (in the sense of insufficient evidence to convince). I know that's the way I feel about the issue, and I once believed that evolution was 100% true (that's another post for another day though).

Anyway, what I really want to address in this post is the intense disrespect for opposing viewpoints I continue to see in this forum. Inflammatory comments such as those made in this thread do nothing but provoke arguments. Understanding between the two viewpoints becomes nearly impossible with such rhetoric.

Note that I don't intend to direct these comments toward one side of this issue or the other. Both sides are guilty of holding such pride in self that we believe we are absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, right in our beliefs regarding God's method of creation. That misplaced pride often leads to bickering, belittling and berating of those who don't share our viewpoints.

All that being said, I'd like to ask everyone to read their posts before they hit that "submit message" button, and ask yourself a simple question: "does the wording of my post glorify Christ?" If you can't honestly answer that, "yes", do you really need to post it?
AMEN, WELL SAID,

AMEN, WELL SAID,

AMEN, WELL SAID,

AMEN, WELL SAID,

AMEN, WELL SAID,

AMEN, WELL SAID,

AMEN, WELL SAID,

AMEN, WELL SAID,
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Intentional dishonesty or not, the claim that their are no transitional fossils is simply false.

What I am condemning as dishonest here is the claim that:

(1) Evolution needs transitional forms that we don't have
(2) We're frantically looking for them and keeping it quiet we don't have them

This is simply not true. You can claim if you like that you are not convinced that the ones we have prove the point, but to claim that they don't exist is simply dishonest.
 
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Freedom777

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Here is a cute joke i just loved it.



A scientist approached God and said "Listen, we've decided we no longer need you. Nowadays we can clone people, transplant hearts and do all kinds of things that were once considered miraculous."

God patiently heard him out and then said "All right. To see whether or not you still need me, why don't we have a man making contest?"

"Okay, great!" the scientist said.

"Now we're going to do this just like I did back in the olde days with Adam" God said.

"That's fine" replied the scientist and bent to scoop up a handful of dirt.

"Whoa!" God said shaking his head in disapproval. "Not so fast pal. You get your own dirt."
 
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Ron21647

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pressingon said:
At the risk of being drawn into another debate (although that's not my intent), I believe that the majority of creationists honestly believe that the list of fossils considered by evolutionists (theistic or otherwise) do not provide adequate evidence to convince them that evolution is true. It's not a matter of "lies", but a matter of either a differing interpretation of evidence or simple skepticism (in the sense of insufficient evidence to convince). I know that's the way I feel about the issue, and I once believed that evolution was 100% true (that's another post for another day though).

Anyway, what I really want to address in this post is the intense disrespect for opposing viewpoints I continue to see in this forum. Inflammatory comments such as those made in this thread do nothing but provoke arguments. Understanding between the two viewpoints becomes nearly impossible with such rhetoric.

Note that I don't intend to direct these comments toward one side of this issue or the other. Both sides are guilty of holding such pride in self that we believe we are absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, right in our beliefs regarding God's method of creation. That misplaced pride often leads to bickering, belittling and berating of those who don't share our viewpoints.

All that being said, I'd like to ask everyone to read their posts before they hit that "submit message" button, and ask yourself a simple question: "does the wording of my post glorify Christ?" If you can't honestly answer that, "yes", do you really need to post it?
I'm going to have to disagree here. Several of the other posters have made the point that the YEC originators, such as ICR, AIG, DrDino, and others, have deliberate falsehoods on their websites. It is true in my opinion, that these people have deliberate falshoods on their web sites.

There are a number of claims (from YEC) in the realm of physics and chemistry, that can be proven wrong in a science lab at the undergraduate level, by actual experiment. The opposite point cannot be proven by the same criteria. Therefore, it is wrong, and since these people claim to have advanced degrees in scientific subjects, they know it is wrong. That makes them not just mistaken, but deliberate liars.

I've discussed a number of these points with both my pastor, and some of my fellow church members. They are quick to invoke items from the "PRATT" list in their arguments. When I try to refute those arguments, they say that they don't understand, or that I am believing in man instead of the Bible. Most of these people have either a high school education, or a bachelor's degree in a liberal arts field. And I think they really don't have the scientific background to follow even a simple argument on these topics.

Pressingon, please understand that I mean you no offense, but I really do not understand how you could have changed from 100% evolution, as you state in this post, to the YEC position that you have in your profile, unless you never understood evolution at the scientific level being explained in these forums. The scientific evidence for old earth and common descent is just too strong.

In my case, although I am not a scientist, I did major in physics and electrical engineering at the undergraduate level, and I do understand (I think :) ) most of the arguments in favor of old earth and of common descent.

I have personally been forced to concede that the Genesis account cannot be interpreted as a literal 6 day event because I do understand the scientific evidence, and I accept mainstream science as correct.

Ron
 
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pressingon

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Ron --

I'm only addressing the personal question, rather than debating with you regarding the rest of your post. There's probably far more in my testimony that brings glory to God (and possibly even understanding of at least one YEC's walk) than in any argument over what interpretation of evidence is correct.

Ron21647 said:
Pressingon, please understand that I mean you no offense, but I really do not understand how you could have changed from 100% evolution, as you state in this post, to the YEC position that you have in your profile, unless you never understood evolution at the scientific level being explained in these forums. The scientific evidence for old earth and common descent is just too strong.
No offense is taken. Not to judge, and certainly not to put words in your mouth, but I understand that we all have the thoughts, "how can they believe that?" or "how can they not see what I see?" from time to time. They enter my mind quite frequently. It's just a fact of life -- sometimes it's hard to see the other side of an issue.

Ron21647 said:
In my case, although I am not a scientist, I did major in physics and electrical engineering at the undergraduate level…
What a coincidence! I'm not a "scientist" either, but studied physics while majoring in electrical engineering in college. I completed my bachelor of science degree in electrical engineering (graduating summa cum laude), and have just recently obtained licensure as a professional engineer.

(Note: I hesitated to post these things, as I posted rather critically of the "qualifications" debate that has been fought here and feel that my doing so demonstrates sinful pride. Know that my intent is not to try to make my opinions and viewpoints hold more weight or bolster my reputation, but merely to let you know where I'm coming from and relate our commonalities.)

Ron21647 said:
… and I do understand (I think ) most of the arguments in favor of old earth and of common descent.
Ron21647 said:
I have personally been forced to concede that the Genesis account cannot be interpreted as a literal 6 day event because I do understand the scientific evidence, and I accept mainstream science as correct.

Ron

Okay, on to how I went from atheistic evolutionist to theistic evolutionist to young earth creationist.... This is in bullet form, as a narrative might take pages.
  • I’ve always been driven by a desire to understand things and to do things as perfectly as possible. That’s probably related to childhood experiences, but that’s another story….
  • I have always been interested in nature, science, and the like.
  • I grew up Catholic, even went to a Catholic school. Faith stopped seeming important to me as I grew older, probably due to lack of good role models in the faith.
  • Began considering myself an atheist sometime in early high school. I started thinking that God wasn’t needed for the world to exist (science said so!), so why should I believe? (Note to all: teenagers obviously don’t understand everything!)
  • Went to college, and met my future wife. Started attending church again, “for her sake”. Got saved my senior year of college. Note that I had questions how evolution and the Bible could both be true, but never really asked anyone about it.
  • I started studying the Bible, and quickly observed its consistency and truth.
  • After a while being saved (not sure how long, one year, two?), I felt I finally had a grasp as to how evolution and the Bible could both be wholly true (I thought that God directed it). I guess that’s not strict theistic evolution, now that I think about it, but more God-directed evolution.
  • Ended up teaching Sunday School at my church. While looking for new material, I started researching the creation / evolution debate so that I could be prepared for a new study. Read a lot of information on genetics, in particular.
  • Found nothing wrong with the concept of natural selection, but ended up being convinced that there was not sufficient evidence to accept evolution as truth and abandon a straightforward reading of the Bible. The most convincing evidence (to me) was how improbable the formation of life from non-living things seems, and how improbable it seems that life could go from simple single-celled organisms to such complex creatures as humans by genetic information increase.
Anyway, that’s my personal experience. As I expect this post to be dissected, rebutted, twisted, and corrupted[sup](1)[/sup], let me state a couple more things to clarify, things you’ll probably all point out anyway.
  • In my initial acceptance of evolution, I never really looked into all of the science behind it, so it’s not as if I suddenly came across research that convinced me to accept it as true. It was more of a, “this is what is taught by science as true, okay, that sounds good to me”, kind of thing.
  • It was in my study of the creation / evolution debate that I first took a serious look at both sides of the issue, examining published research, reading books, etc. My opinion is that I was objective in my study, but that’s probably debatable as I was preparing for a Sunday School study (even if I did believe evolution to be true going in).
Finally, I’m not here to debate this issue… I’ve seen too much nonsensical bickering and arguing here to do so anymore. I’ll be happy to relate personal experience on the matter or answer questions regarding my viewpoint, but I’m not going to fight with anyone over this issue -- it’s not essential to salvation. If you want to fight amongst yourselves, feel free (I wouldn't recommend it, but I can't prevent it), but when you post, please keep in mind the question I asked earlier… “Does the wording of my post glorify Christ?”


Note:
[sup](1)[/sup]The italicized phrase is intended as sarcasm... just a poor attempt at humor!
 
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