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There is evidence that if you do what the Bible says to do, that you will get good results. But people will always say: How do you know that it was God that did it? So even when they can see and even test the effect or the results, they can not always see or test the cause of those results.kopilo said:Which logically goes in a circle because we have no scientific proof of God.
Job.JohnR7 said:There is evidence that if you do what the Bible says to do, that you will get good results. But people will always say: How do you know that it was God that did it? So even when they can see and even test the effect or the results, they can not always see or test the cause of those results.
This claim, John, has been tested and shown not to be true -- many times. In fact, in a recent study on intercessory prayer, it was determined that those who were prayed for and knew they were being prayed for actually suffered a higher percentage of medical complications than groups which were not prayed for. Of course that doesn't mean that prayer causes medical complications. It was likely the knowledge that people had turned to prayer which caused people so much concern for their own welfare, that they suffered anxiety and the anxiety was likely responsible for the increase in medical complications.JohnR7 said:On the basis that it has been tested, tried and found to be true. If you do what the Bible says to do, it works and we get good results.
kopilo said:That's not how God works according to the bible and according to Jesus. Matthew 4:5-7
It will work if you find righteous men and women to pray. If you go to vegas and ask a bunch of sinners to pray you may not get very good results. If God answered their prayers they would all go home rich.Beastt said:In fact, in a recent study on intercessory prayer
I believe it works because I see the results. You do not believe, because you do not know how to pray. God honors our faith. If you do not have faith to believe, then it is a pretty sure thing that God is not going to honor our prayers.Beastt said:You believe it works for you because you wish to believe that it works.
Fine, then let's have a look at the methodology applied to the aforementioned study. The study involved 1,800 patients and lasted 3-years. It is unquestionably the largest such study ever conducted. Those offering prayer were from church groups and each patient receiving prayer, was prayed for by approximately 70 believers.JohnR7 said:It will work if you find righteous men and women to pray. If you go to vegas and ask a bunch of sinners to pray you may not get very good results. If God answered their prayers they would all go home rich.
God does not honor the prayers of sinners, He honors the prayers of the righteous and those who live their life righteous before Him.
James 5:16 The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The Bible makes it clear that God hears the effectual prayer of the righteous. The Bible is jam packed filled with promises. If you do your part, then you can be sure that God will do His part.
It is a shame that there are so many churches out there were people do not know how to get results. But I was blessed to be able to attend a church where we learned how to get good results when we pray. Also my wife was raised with people that taught her how to pray, so she knows how to get good results. She will be the first to tell you that if you do your part, God will do His part. But if you do not do what your suppose to be doing, then do not expect God to do His part.
We have free will, we can do it our way or we can do it God's way. I have learned that my way does not work, it just gets me into trouble. I have learned that I am far, far better off to do things God's way.kopilo said:unless when God gave man free will, God really wasn't giving man free will.
So when someone becomes sick with an illness it is because they are a sinner?JohnR7 said:It will work if you find righteous men and women to pray. If you go to vegas and ask a bunch of sinners to pray you may not get very good results. If God answered their prayers they would all go home rich.
God does not honor the prayers of sinners, He honors the prayers of the righteous and those who live their life righteous before Him.
James 5:16 The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The Bible makes it clear that God hears the effectual prayer of the righteous. The Bible is jam packed filled with promises. If you do your part, then you can be sure that God will do His part.
It is a shame that there are so many churches out there were people do not know how to get results. But I was blessed to be able to attend a church where we learned how to get good results when we pray. Also my wife was raised with people that taught her how to pray, so she knows how to get good results. She will be the first to tell you that if you do your part, God will do His part. But if you do not do what your suppose to be doing, then do not expect God to do His part.
Not always, sometimes people get sick because Satan put sickness on them, even when he has no legal right to put that sickness on them. They teach us that he may try to deliever his package to your door, but you do not have to accept delivery of it.kopilo said:So when someone becomes sick with an illness it is because they are a sinner?
So would you go out on a limb and say it is a sin going from hot to cold to hot to cold, which causes chill blades?JohnR7 said:Not always, sometimes people get sick because Satan put sickness on them, even when he has no legal right to put that sickness on them. They teach us that he may try to deliever his package to your door, but you do not have to accept delivery of it.
Genesis 4:7
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Sin does lead to sickness though. A lot of sin like drinking, drugs, and so forth can have some serious consequences.
You've given us some information about some recent, and very serious, health problems you've had, John. Can you tell us why you chose to "take delivery" of the package?JohnR7 said:Not always, sometimes people get sick because Satan put sickness on them, even when he has no legal right to put that sickness on them. They teach us that he may try to deliever his package to your door, but you do not have to accept delivery of it.
Genesis 4:7
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Sin does lead to sickness though. A lot of sin like drinking, drugs, and so forth can have some serious consequences.
Beastt said:You've given us some information about some recent, and very serious, health problems you've had, John. Can you tell us why you chose to "take delivery" of the package?
I'm sorry if I forgot the details. You certainly have your right to privacy but I'm going to ask anyway; feel free not to answer if you'd rather not. Did you suffer a heart attack, stroke or other serious illness?JohnR7 said:I told you why, because I smoked for 40 years.
I used to do this myself, John. I was a firefighter/engineer/EMT working with the local fire department and Ambulance company so I'm familiar with the reasons, procedures, etc.JohnR7 said:My dad tried to get me to quit from the beginning. My doctor tried to get me to quit. The pastor tried for 10 years to get me to quit. But I left it all up to God and that is they way He decided to work it all out.
I was thinking about that for the medics at the fire department. They told my wife that my chance of living was not very good, but they would do their best. My chance was maybe 2%. If I did not have a small chance then maybe they would not have even tried.
Isn't that amazing, they jump up out of their warm bed and rush to someone's house 100 times and in those 100 times they are able to save two or three people. But for them that makes it all worth their while.
If she had called 911 in the area where I live, the odds aren't bad that I'd have been the one to take the call. And in doing this for 24-years, I've found that the best way to assure a positive outcome is to remove myself emotionally from the call. It becomes a series of tasks and decisions leading to other tasks. I've seen others who become emotionally involved and it often leads to a less orderly response, and slower receipt of the proper aid. Put another way, sealing off the emotion and superstitious bias and replacing it with cold logic offers such an improvement in patient outcome that this is the standard for dispatch training. No prayer, no tears, just good solid, logical choices and the use of reason over emotion.JohnR7 said:You know, actually I did not care. When you are that close to death you do not care at all if you live or die. But my wife was the one who called 911 and she was the one that got people to pray for me.
Do you think the doctor would have done less had you not had a son?JohnR7 said:The doctor saw I had a 8 year old son and he thought that maybe my son needed a father to be around at least until he graduated from high school, so the doctor decided to do all he could do to help me.
So you're always telling us about the wisdom and knowledge you've received from God, the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Yet you didn't seem to understand the reason that you should quit smoking. And as we saw earlier in this thread, you promote other habits which are known to be incredibly detrimental to one's health. That other thread still awaits. Time after time I see claims from believers about how they used to drink to excess and were involved in illegal drugs before they "found God" and how God delivered them from their self-destructive ways. Yet you had to nearly die before God helped you to quit, (I assume you have quit smoking). Can you see why I have more than enough reason to doubt your claims? They simply don't stack up to reality.JohnR7 said:I think he would have done it if he got paid or not, because he felt it was the right thing to do at the time.
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