Creationism is responsible for a falling away

[Keachian]

So many times I have heard it brought up that evolution is causing people to fall away from their faith and from God. I believe that this is not the case and that rather a fallacious mandate that people have made concerning creationism being the only way to interpret the first chapters of Genesis is what is causing this falling away.

It is neither a necessity to believe in creationism, nor is it something that our faith should be wrapped up so close to. I have travelled theological so far. I have nearly lost my belief in God too many times to count and for too many reasons to number, it is my experiences with God that continue to shape who I am. This doesn't mean that my faith is purely experiential but rather my experience matches that which I have seen in the Bible.

If we want to continue to say that we have faith in God's word, why do some of us subscribe to cessationism, why do some of us subscribe to pre-tribulation rapture, the whole theological discourse at times stifles what should in essence be an active faith of service, to both our brothers and sisters and to the world. We were not called because God created the world in 6 literal days, we were called because he sent his Son, such that we might not die and find peace in him.

In my mind creationism does far more harm to Christianity than it does good, it substitutes the awe and wonder of the Universe and our place in it and our precious relationship with God, for saying of course we are precious to God, he made the universe solely for us. Come to terms with the fact that we are but small specs of dust floating in the grand ocean of the universe, here one second gone the next, for all the opposing view is is pride, we cannot truly know who God is if pride clouds who we are.

No theory behind how genesis fits with creation has in my mind been Theologically true enough that I'm willing to read it as a literal account for how the universe was physically formed. With this weak theology people aren't able to when they truly look into evolution see how to put the two together and so since evolution is such a strong scientific theory their faith dies.

 

[er72]

That's a convenient excuse.

I would say the religious teaching of an angry, jealous, petty, spiteful god of the bronze age is likely more a reason for sensible people choosing to fall away. Evolution / creationism has nothing to do with people's view of who God is.

 

[Keachian]

And yet so many people because they are so wrapped up in creationism, when someone continually calls them out on misrepresenting evolution so they decide to go away and find out what that person means fall away. How do you explain that?

 

[NvxiaLee]

In my mind creationism does far more harm to Christianity than it does good, it substitutes the awe and wonder of the Universe and our place in it and our precious relationship with God, for saying of course we are precious to God, he made the universe solely for us. Come to terms with the fact that we are but small specs of dust floating in the grand ocean of the universe, here one second gone the next, for all the opposing view is is pride, we cannot truly know who God is if pride clouds who we are.

The belief in Creationism is on the decline, and so it the belief in Christianity. If there is cause and effect between the two, as you believe, the evidence appears to contradict your claim.

It looks like you're arguing that the problem with Creationism is that it teaches that God cares about people. As if it would be better if we just though of ourselves as insignificant dust.

I'm wonderfully made.

 

[er72]

And yet so many people because they are so wrapped up in creationism, when someone continually calls them out on misrepresenting evolution so they decide to go away and find out what that person means fall away. How do you explain that?

I don't think followers of Jesus Christ should be representing evolution.

I think they should be representing Jesus Christ.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

In my mind creationism does far more harm to Christianity than it does good, it substitutes the awe and wonder of the Universe and our place in it and our precious relationship with God, for saying of course we are precious to God, he made the universe solely for us. Come to terms with the fact that we are but small specs of dust floating in the grand ocean of the universe, here one second gone the next, for all the opposing view is is pride, we cannot truly know who God is if pride clouds who we are.

Admittedly I don't see how thinking that we are "but small specks of dust" brings us closer to God either. On a more personal note, and I hope you don't mind if I ask, what (almost) made you lose your faith?

I would say the religious teaching of an angry, jealous, petty, spiteful god of the bronze age is likely more a reason for sensible people choosing to fall away.

Furthering my suspicions that you might be a poe ...

 

[singpeace]

The Astonishing Pattern of SEVENS in Genesis 1:1
by Grant R. Jeffrey (from his book "The Signature of God")

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1)

"Ivan Panin carefully examined the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1 and discovered an incredible phenomenon of multiples of 7 that
could not be explained by chance. Genesis 1:1 was composed of seven Hebrew words containing a total of 28 letters.

Throughout the Bible the number seven appears repeatedly as a symbol of divine perfection - the 7 days of creation, God rested on the 7th day, the 7 churches, the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, etc. In total, Panin discovered 30 separate codes involving the number 7 just in this first verse of the Bible.

A Partial Listing of the Phenomenal Features of Sevens Found in Genesis 1:1

1. The number of Hebrew words = 7

2. The number of letters equals 28 (7 x 4 = 28)

3. The first three Hebrew words translated "In the beginning God created" contain 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)

4. The last four Hebrew words "the heavens and the earth" have 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)

5. The fourth and fifth words have 7 letters

6. The sixth and seventh words have 7 letters

7. The three key words: God, heaven and earth have 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)

8. The number of letters in the four remaining words is also 14 (7 x 2 = 14)

9. The shortest word in the verse is the middle word with 7 letters

10. The Hebrew numeric value of the first, middle and last letters is 133 (7 x 19 = 133)

11. The Hebrew numeric value of the first and last letters of all seven words is 1393 (7 x 199 = 1393)

12. ...

When professors on the mathematics faculty at Harvard University were presented with this biblical phenomenon they naturally attempted to disprove its significance as a proof of divine authorship. However, after valiant efforts these professors were unable to duplicate this incredible mathematical phenomenon. The Harvard scientists used the English language and artificially assigned numeric values to the English alphabet. They had a potential vocabulary of over 400,000 available English words to
choose from to construct a sentence about any topic they chose. Compare this to the limitations of word choices in the biblical Hebrew language which has only forty-five hundred available word choices that the writers of the Old Testament could use.

Despite their advanced mathematical abilities and access to computers the mathematicians were unable to come close to incorporating 30 mathematical multiples of 7 as found in the Hebrew words of Genesis 1:1.

The number "seven" permeates the totality of Scripture because the number speaks of God's divine perfection and perfect order. The actual number 7 appears 287 times in the Old Testament (7 x 41 = 287) while the word "seventh" occurs 98 times (7 x 14 = 98). The word "seven-fold" appears seven times. In addition, the word "seventy" is used 56 times (7 x 8 = 56).

Ivan Panin discovered literally thousands [30,000 +] of such mathematical patterns underlying all of the books of the Old Testament before his death in 1942. I refer the interested reader to Panin's book, The Inspiration of the Scriptures Scientifically Demonstrated, which discusses these phenomena extensively.

Panin and others have examined other Hebrew literature and have attempted to find such mathematical patterns, but they are not found anywhere outside the Bible. By the way, the crucifixion of Jesus took place at Golgotha, elevation = 777 meters above sea level. What a coincidence."

 

[Keachian]

It looks like you're arguing that the problem with Creationism is that it teaches that God cares about people. As if it would be better if we just though of ourselves as insignificant dust.

Far from it, I'm arguing that creationism shows less awe of the fact that even though we seem to be this insignificant dust we are so fearfully and wonderfully made! It is amazing how much God loves his creation, so much so that there is no way for us to escape his Love.

I don't think followers of Jesus Christ should be representing evolution.

I think they should be representing Jesus Christ.

I don't think they should be representing creationism.
I think they should be representing Jesus Christ. (how about that?)

Admittedly I don't see how thinking that we are "but small specks of dust" brings us closer to God either. On a more personal note, and I hope you don't mind if I ask, what (almost) made you lose your faith?

As I've stated evolution has, there has also been the problem of pain, hypocrisy of certain believers, the efficacy of grace and my own wretchedness, pre-tribulation rapture. I don't think that's all of it and I don't think I have all the answers yet, but I think in the end it all boiled down to, how much does God love the world and how much does he love me and really I believe that he's called me just as much to love as to be loved and that's my greatest struggle at the moment. To love all just as Christ loved all.

 

[Keachian]

The Astonishing Pattern of SEVENS in Genesis 1:1
by Grant R. Jeffrey (from his book "The Signature of God")

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1)

"Ivan Panin carefully examined the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1 and discovered an incredible phenomenon of multiples of 7 that
could not be explained by chance. Genesis 1:1 was composed of seven Hebrew words containing a total of 28 letters.

Throughout the Bible the number seven appears repeatedly as a symbol of divine perfection - the 7 days of creation, God rested on the 7th day, the 7 churches, the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, etc. In total, Panin discovered 30 separate codes involving the number 7 just in this first verse of the Bible.

A Partial Listing of the Phenomenal Features of Sevens Found in Genesis 1:1

1. The number of Hebrew words = 7

2. The number of letters equals 28 (7 x 4 = 28)

3. The first three Hebrew words translated "In the beginning God created" contain 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)

4. The last four Hebrew words "the heavens and the earth" have 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)

5. The fourth and fifth words have 7 letters

6. The sixth and seventh words have 7 letters

7. The three key words: God, heaven and earth have 14 letters (7 x 2 = 14)

8. The number of letters in the four remaining words is also 14 (7 x 2 = 14)

9. The shortest word in the verse is the middle word with 7 letters

10. The Hebrew numeric value of the first, middle and last letters is 133 (7 x 19 = 133)

11. The Hebrew numeric value of the first and last letters of all seven words is 1393 (7 x 199 = 1393)

12. ...

When professors on the mathematics faculty at Harvard University were presented with this biblical phenomenon they naturally attempted to disprove its significance as a proof of divine authorship. However, after valiant efforts these professors were unable to duplicate this incredible mathematical phenomenon. The Harvard scientists used the English language and artificially assigned numeric values to the English alphabet. They had a potential vocabulary of over 400,000 available English words to
choose from to construct a sentence about any topic they chose. Compare this to the limitations of word choices in the biblical Hebrew language which has only forty-five hundred available word choices that the writers of the Old Testament could use.

Despite their advanced mathematical abilities and access to computers the mathematicians were unable to come close to incorporating 30 mathematical multiples of 7 as found in the Hebrew words of Genesis 1:1.

The number "seven" permeates the totality of Scripture because the number speaks of God's divine perfection and perfect order. The actual number 7 appears 287 times in the Old Testament (7 x 41 = 287) while the word "seventh" occurs 98 times (7 x 14 = 98). The word "seven-fold" appears seven times. In addition, the word "seventy" is used 56 times (7 x 8 = 56).

Ivan Panin discovered literally thousands [30,000 +] of such mathematical patterns underlying all of the books of the Old Testament before his death in 1942. I refer the interested reader to Panin's book, The Inspiration of the Scriptures Scientifically Demonstrated, which discusses these phenomena extensively.

Panin and others have examined other Hebrew literature and have attempted to find such mathematical patterns, but they are not found anywhere outside the Bible. By the way, the crucifixion of Jesus took place at Golgotha, elevation = 777 meters above sea level. What a coincidence."

I'm confused how does this have any relevance to the topic? Yes it's beautiful that there is so much symbology for completeness in the opening chapter of genesis, but that's one of the things that it is there to convey, completeness.

 

[er72]

Furthering my suspicions that you might be a poe ...

Or:

 

[singpeace]

I'm confused how does this have any relevance to the topic? Yes it's beautiful that there is so much symbology for completeness in the opening chapter of genesis, but that's one of the things that it is there to convey, completeness.

Because it demonstrates to me that God is most definitely the Creator of the Universe and there can be no other explanation for how the Universe came into being.

So many times I have heard it brought up that evolution is causing people to fall away from their faith and from God. I believe that this is not the case and that rather a fallacious mandate that people have made concerning creationism being the only way to interpret the first chapters of Genesis is what is causing this falling away.

How can the belief that first chapters of Genesis be anything but Creation?

It is neither a necessity to believe in creationism, nor is it something that our faith should be wrapped up so close to.

The miraculous '7' in Genesis 1:1 demonstrates how important and perfect Creation is. I already believed it; but this kind of evidence was there for thousands of years before it was discovered. It only strengthens my faith. Therefore, in my opinion, Creationism is something any believer in Christ should wrap close to his faith.

In my mind creationism does far more harm to Christianity than it does good, it substitutes the awe and wonder of the Universe and our place in it and our precious relationship with God

This makes no sense to me. God creating the Universe somehow substitutes the awe and wonder of said Universe? Nothing is more awe inspiring.

No theory behind how genesis fits with creation has in my mind been Theologically true enough that I'm willing to read it as a literal account for how the universe was physically formed. With this weak theology people aren't able to when they truly look into evolution see how to put the two together and so since evolution is such a strong scientific theory their faith dies.

I wholeheartedly disagree. God has left an enormous amount of evidence proving that He alone created everything that exists. It only takes the delving-into of the original text and some research to find there seems to be no end to God's personal signature upon Creation.

If I profess to be a Christian; a theologian ... how can I then deny that God is God? Isn't denying Creationism the same as denying the Word of God, or denying that there is a Creator?


If I have misunderstood your argument, please enlighten me.

I love the simple and perfect Truth; "In the beginning, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH." Nothing is so perfectly simple, so perfectly direct, and so perfectly true.

 

[Keachian]

Because it demonstrates to me that God is most definitely the Creator of the Universe and there can be no other explanation for how the Universe came into being.

I totally believe that, theologically though I don't believe that one can hold on to creationism without making some serious accusations against the character of God.

How can the belief that first chapters of Genesis be anything but Creation?

The idea is not that we don't believe that God created but that taking the idea that God created everything in stiu creates serious theological ramifications that neither the Omphalos hypothesis nor gap theory adequately take into account.

The miraculous '7' in Genesis 1:1 demonstrates how important and perfect Creation is. I already believed it; but this kind of evidence was there for thousands of years before it was discovered. It only strengthens my faith. Therefore, in my opinion, Creationism is something any believer in Christ should wrap close to his faith.

I'm not arguing that God didn't create the Universe but rather the way in which God created.

This makes no sense to me. God creating the Universe somehow substitutes the awe and wonder of said Universe? Nothing is more awe inspiring.

I'm saying that it is more awesome once you realise that God not only created the universe but he created it in.

I wholeheartedly disagree. God has left an enormous amount of evidence proving that He alone created everything that exists. It only takes the delving-into of the original text and some research to find there seems to be no end to God's personal signature upon Creation.

I agree and this can and should be evident whether we believe that God created in one brief spurt 6000 years ago or he is continuously creating!

If I profess to be a Christian; a theologian ... how can I then deny that God is God? Isn't denying Creationism the same as denying the Word of God, or denying that there is a Creator?

If I have misunderstood your argument, please enlighten me.

I love the simple and perfect Truth; "In the beginning, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH." Nothing is so perfectly simple, so perfectly direct, and so perfectly true.

I'm not saying you need deny that God is God, nor do I say that God isn't creator, I am stating that the method which some have decided that God created is theologically vacant and erring on blasphemy against the nature of God.

 

[Jase]

That's a convenient excuse.

I would say the religious teaching of an angry, jealous, petty, spiteful god of the bronze age is likely more a reason for sensible people choosing to fall away. Evolution / creationism has nothing to do with people's view of who God is.

There are many reasons people abandon Christianity. I'd say the #1 reasons are the hypocrisy, lack of compassion, and lack of education of so many of its adherents, which would certainly include Creationism. Creationism makes people think one has to check their intelligence at the door to be a Christian. Certainly not a great advertisement.

 

[Jase]

The belief in Creationism is on the decline, and so it the belief in Christianity. If there is cause and effect between the two, as you believe, the evidence appears to contradict your claim.

It looks like you're arguing that the problem with Creationism is that it teaches that God cares about people. As if it would be better if we just though of ourselves as insignificant dust.

I'm wonderfully made.

Creationism is nearly exclusively found in the United States. Most 1st world nations with large Christian populations don't have anywhere near the Creationist belief we have here, because they don't have the Fundamentalist movement which started the Creationism issue.

Christianity is not on the decline because Creationism is on the decline.

 

[singpeace]

How can anyone possibly know or understand HOW God created the Universe?
Why does it even matter?
He alone is God.

I don't dare make accusations against Him, nor do I find it necessary to hold God accountable to explaining himself to me.

It's incredible how complicated we can make this. Just ridiculous to me.



Hebrews 11:3 “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (KJV)

Psalm 104: 24-25 “How many are your works, O Lord! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures. There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number-living things both large and small.” (NIV)

Psalms 104:30 “Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.” (KJV)

Psalms 135:6 “Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.” (KJV)

Psalm 33:5-6 “He loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of the steadfast love of the LORD. By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and all their host by the breath of his mouth.” (NIV)

Psalm 145:9 “The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.” (KJV)

 

[Keachian]

How can anyone possibly know or understand HOW God created the Universe?
Why does it even matter?
He alone is God.

That's the thing theologically in my mind it's a null matter it is not relevant to salvation.

I don't dare make accusations against Him, nor do I find it necessary to hold God accountable to explaining himself to me.

It's incredible how complicated we can make this. Just ridiculous to me.

You don't dare but many people have even in the Bible. Psalm 22 while also being a prophecy on the crucifixion is also a crying out to God to explain where he's at. The whole premise of Job's argument is where is God for it seems he has abandonned me through no fault of my own.

I don't think of it as questioning God, merely a higher critical investigation through his word and a study of his creation, neither of which are condemned by the Bible.

 

[er72]

Judgmental, hypocritical Christians definitely do a real service to the name of God and Christ. Oh wait...

 

[Keachian]

Obvious troll/poe is obvious

 

[Papias]

Progmonk, your that evidence denying creationism is driving people away from Christianity at least fits the data over time.

Here are some dates:


(Note that before 1800, YEC didn't require one to reject evidence, the best evidence we had then didn't argue against YEC)

1830, Christians, using science, disproved flood geology and established an old age of the Earth
....(Western Christianity still strong, even though a young earth is thoroughly rejected)
....
1859 Darwin introduces the idea of evolution by natural selection
....
.... ...
....

1920 Evolution (by NS) accepted among those who have seen the data, & taught in schools (note- scopes trial, 1925).
.....
1950 (Western Christianity still strong, % Christians in US are ~90%)
...
1961 Morris and evidence denying creationism: based on his publication of a book advocating the long rejected idea of flood geology, and denying the evidence for evolution.

1972 Morris founds the Institute for Creation Research, and begins a movement for YEC, by denying evidence.

1975 (% Christian in US is ~90%)

1985 (% Christian in US is 81%)

1989 Intelligent design creationism introduced by creationists

2000 (% Christian in US is 79%)


It seems to me that the data shows that modern, evidence denying creationism causing the fleeing of Christianity fits the data. After all, evolution and an old earth were around for generations before Christianity began to decline, but when creationism started, then Christianity declined. You don't have to take my word for it, here's the data:
Tracking U.S. Religious Preferences Over the Decades

http://www.gallup.com/poll/16459/Tracking-US-Religious-Preferences-Over-Decades.aspx

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117409/easter-smaller-percentage-americans-christian.aspx (more with “no religion”, trends over time in united states)

It also seems that creationism is much more effective in making atheists than the New Atheists are, probably because most Christians simply ignore the New Atheists like Dawkins, but listen to those fellow Christians around them who are creationists. Thus creationists are much more effective in reaching Christians, and hence cause so many more to become atheists than the new atheists could ever dream of reaching.

Papias

 

[Greg1234]

The belief in Creationism is on the decline, and so it the belief in Christianity. If there is cause and effect between the two, as you believe, the evidence appears to contradict your claim.

Good point. It's amazing to see that these men are actually trying to blame a man's turn to materialism on him acknowledging that he was created by God. Meanwhile, we have materialism and Darwinism on the rise and somehow no one should see the intellectually fulfilling connection.