Creationism Gurus

Mallon · Jul 14, 2006

pastorkevin73 said:
Hmmm! Very interesting. You TEs always rant that unless a person haa some kind of biology degree that opinion is not worth two bits and now when someone does have some biology education and does not agree with evolution you through him out too.

He has an education in cleaning teeth. That's what he does for a living. As a self-professed pastor, I'm sure you would admit that you are better trained to give spiritual advice than, say, a Sunday School teacher. Same difference.
But see TEBeliever's comments re: research and evidence. This is what ultimately counts. As has already been pointed out to you, Martin's claims about the impossibility of evolution via reference to "irreducibly complex" systems have been falsified with science (not to mention bad, god-of-the-gaps theology. What Martin has done is set up a test for God that has been falsified!).

BTW, Dr. Martin was at one time an evolutionist.

I question even this statement, and I hear it a lot. By "evolutionst" do you mean "athiest who didn't question evolution"? Because I think it could hardly be argued that Martin truly understood the ins-and-outs of evolution. If he did, he would hardly be making the statements he does. I studied calculus in high school and university, too, but I would hardly consider myself a mathematician.

Melethiel · Jul 14, 2006

Sometimes some TEs comse aross as rude and arrogant.

It's called being human. Sometimes some YECs come across as rude and arrogant as well.

XTE · Jul 14, 2006

Melethiel said:
It's called being human. Sometimes some YECs come across as rude and arrogant as well.

"The vain attempt at self-justification(also adding self-preservation) is so strong in all of us that we'd rather subjugate than investigate." Is that human?

I think it is....

You gotta recognize your own bias before you do away with it.

I think some philosophies preach "clearing the mind"

I'm not Buddhist btw...

pastorkevin73 · Jul 14, 2006

TEBeliever said:
I have been called rude and arrogant before when I know for a fact that I was neither. Someone saying that to you puts you in a place you don't deserve to be.

The person asked a question and you answered it and did a VERY GOOD THING and provided examples so someone can spell it out for themselves and maybe build a system of thinking from it just to be called rude and arrogant.

Where does this come from and why does it happen all the time?

I'm not a big fan of Richard Dawkins at all, he hates religion and isn't afraid to admit it. I forget what I was looking up but I stumbled on a video from YouTube that had him and another man named Pastor Ted Haggard(I believe) and they were discussing Evolution. Granted this was Dawkins film so he could edit it how he wants but it came off to me that Ted Haggard was the rude and arrogant person WHILE HE WAS CALLING DAWKINS RUDE AND ARROGANT. You should see the look on his face. It really looked like a man that was scared to represent his position and more willing to intimidate his way out of the situation. I would encourage you all to see the short clip.

The thing is.....it was there too. I remember seeing this "rude and arrogant" bit AGAIN and just wondering to myself, "is the vain attempt at self-justification so strong in all of us that we'd rather subjugate than investigate?" I think now that it might be the case.

I think, Pastor Kevin, that you should give us the benefit of the doubt here. I didn't see anything rude with his post, he was just stating it as fact, which was contrary to your current belief system. Is it possible that when something starts to make sense to you but goes against what you've established as truth you fight without even realizing? You really need to think we are rude and arrogant? Those are ?'s I'm asking....

Now that I've taken some away from you, let me give some back.

As a TE there are times where I do rack my head wondering at literalists. I sit here, confident that if I had a face to face with any of them where I could sit down and show them examples of survival in play over enormous amounts of time, with 20 minutes I'd have them sold. Not because I'm a good salesman, because Evolution is SO EASY TO UNDERSTAND.

Last question: Prose: You find that arriving at 4 for, "what is 2+2" is pretty easy. What would you think of someone who thought it was 5 and showed no sign of wavering? You think that person would think you "rude and arrogant" when you showed no hostility, but just a look of unbelief when you talk to them.

Arrogance isn't hostility, it's a look like you are below me and someone that thinks 2+2=5 might think YOU THINK you are above them.

My prayers are with you.

Thank you TEBeliever for your post. I do appreciate it. I am by no means saying that all TEs are rude and arrogant, only some. Actually I do see some TEs handle discussion with grace. I do try to give the benifit of a doubt. I am speaking only of those being rude and arrogant by using words and make comments that come across as demeaning and hurtful.

pastorkevin73 · Jul 14, 2006

Mallon said:
I question even this statement, and I hear it a lot. By "evolutionst" do you mean "athiest who didn't question evolution"? Because I think it could hardly be argued that Martin truly understood the ins-and-outs of evolution. If he did, he would hardly be making the statements he does. I studied calculus in high school and university, too, but I would hardly consider myself a mathematician.

Unfortunately we don't know to what extent his knowledge is on evolution, so we really cannot make such a judgement.

pastorkevin73 · Jul 14, 2006

Melethiel said:
It's called being human. Sometimes some YECs come across as rude and arrogant as well.

True.

Mallon · Jul 14, 2006

pastorkevin73 said:
Unfortunately we don't know to what extent his knowledge is on evolution, so we really cannot make such a judgement.

Very true. Although the fact Martin writes in his book that he had an "unquestioning belief in Darwinian evolution" kinda makes me wonder. How can one truly come to learn something if we don't question it? I question both my faith and my understanding of evolution all the time, which is why I am so strongly convinced of both.

Assyrian · Jul 14, 2006

pastorkevin73 said:
Unfortunately we don't know to what extent his knowledge is on evolution, so we really cannot make such a judgement.

Sadly his use of the bombardier beetle as evidence is a pretty good indication of how little he knows about evolution. See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html

XTE · Jul 14, 2006

pastorkevin73 said:
Unfortunately we don't know to what extent his knowledge is on evolution, so we really cannot make such a judgement.

Pastor Kevin, you can't do this....

We have to have something that backs it up. With this kind of logic I could tell you I know the beginnings of the Universe and YOU'D HAVE TO BELIEVE ME because I claim to know it.

That's why we depend on peer review and published works and that sort of thing. It forms a reputation for people to expect and build on. This guy doesn't have a reputation other than the one he formed for himself.

Like I said, I'll form a reputation for knowing that I have the beginning all figured out Scientifically and garner a following if that's the case.... and people do that...

XTE · Jul 14, 2006

pastorkevin73 said:
Unfortunately we don't know to what extent his knowledge is on evolution, so we really cannot make such a judgement.

To add...

on this note, who can make a judgement?

Don't you see? You are muddying the waters here, asking a ? for which you won't respect any answer. You have a win/win for yourself.

If you recognize you might be wrong in something, you'll end up closer to right in the future.

You WANT this guy to be respected, you brought him up thinking we would just flat out go, "oh, some guy says this, we have to respect him" and that isn't even the case in Scientific circles. Why then, would we uphold on your end?

The Bombadier Beetles is such an old argument, yet another tried and failed experiement. Sure, in the beginning it's a great rallying flag but for whose gain? Is it the Creationists when another argument goes the way of the dinosaurs or the guy that started it with his book sales?

This isn't arrogance, it's simply pattern recognition and disgust. I truly hope you can understand that. I'm not digusted with YECs at all, it's the people that feed on them like Kent Hovind. Kent Hovind KNOWS what he is doing. It isn't that he is teaching something he believes to be correct, he is making money off of it knowing full well that some of it is garbage.

XTE · Jul 14, 2006

Mallon said:
Very true. Although the fact Martin writes in his book that he had an "unquestioning belief in Darwinian evolution" kinda makes me wonder. How can one truly come to learn something if we don't question it? I question both my faith and my understanding of evolution all the time, which is why I am so strongly convinced of both.

Exactly!

Doubting isn't a Sin, it's our best tool for growth.

Does it make us happy to doubt ourselves now? NO, but it will in the future when that doubt replaces old systems of thinking with better, clearer systems. Something so concise that you have no problem telling the specifics on a whim. I have epiphonies over this sometimes, my hair stands up, I love the feeling.

pastorkevin73 · Jul 15, 2006

Mallon said:
Very true. Although the fact Martin writes in his book that he had an "unquestioning belief in Darwinian evolution" kinda makes me wonder. How can one truly come to learn something if we don't question it? I question both my faith and my understanding of evolution all the time, which is why I am so strongly convinced of both.

I think it is possible. I have never questioned my faith in God. My faith becomes stronger the more I seek after him. I don't question Him, at times I wonder what the next step is, I just follow.

pastorkevin73 · Jul 15, 2006

TEBeliever said:
Pastor Kevin, you can't do this....

We have to have something that backs it up. With this kind of logic I could tell you I know the beginnings of the Universe and YOU'D HAVE TO BELIEVE ME because I claim to know it.

That's why we depend on peer review and published works and that sort of thing. It forms a reputation for people to expect and build on. This guy doesn't have a reputation other than the one he formed for himself.

Like I said, I'll form a reputation for knowing that I have the beginning all figured out Scientifically and garner a following if that's the case.... and people do that...

We truely cannot make a judgement on a person's knowledge unless what have heard directly from him all the knowledge he has on the subject. I hardly think that a few dvds and a book would amount to his full knowledge of the subject.
For example, when I preach a sermon I am not giving all the knowledge I have on what I am preaching on (namely due to the short time given to preach). For one of my congregants to know all that I know about the subject that person would have to meet with me to dialogue. This always takes time, whether it be five minutes or several time meeting. So the case may be with Dr. Martin.
BTW, I didn't expect you to accept all that Dr. Martin says on evolution. It is more wanting to here what TEs have to say about him. It was another poster who turned this into accepting or not accepting what Martin says.

XTE · Jul 15, 2006

pastorkevin73 said:
We truely cannot make a judgement on a person's knowledge unless what have heard directly from him all the knowledge he has on the subject. I hardly think that a few dvds and a book would amount to his full knowledge of the subject.
For example, when I preach a sermon I am not giving all the knowledge I have on what I am preaching on (namely due to the short time given to preach). For one of my congregants to know all that I know about the subject that person would have to meet with me to dialogue. This always takes time, whether it be five minutes or several time meeting. So the case may be with Dr. Martin.
BTW, I didn't expect you to accept all that Dr. Martin says on evolution. It is more wanting to here what TEs have to say about him. It was another poster who turned this into accepting or not accepting what Martin says.

Until we hear everything?! Can you at least make a reasonable request? You could that line out into infinity and never get anything accomplished. "Hey Pastor Kevin, I speant 40 years with the guy and he told me himself that I know everything he knows..."

Pastor Kevin: Matt, be honest, you still don't know so nothing you say can even compare to what he says.

Conveniently he's on your side of the argument.

Now, the other point is....I could be an actual respected scientist and DO THE WORK such as published WORKS or I can just claim to be for some folks and that'll work as long as I support their argument.

We aren't gonna respect a dentist as an evolutionary biologist UNTIL he publishes a respect work. WE EARN RESPECT. He earned yours because you pat each other on the back, that's not fair to you and it's not fair anyone. The Heaven's Gate Cult patted each other on the back to death.

Pastor Kevin, when you say "we can't judge until we've read and heard everything he has to say" it's just a muddying of the waters, a smoke screen to get out of accountability. Stay with the argument please and make a stand for what you believe in. Don't let that stand rule you though. If Evolution was superceded by something better tomorrow or if every suddenly pointed towards YEC I'd change, I'D CHANGE and it'd be the most respectful, upstanding thing I could think of ever doing. WHO CARES ON THE WEB IF YOU SAY YOU MIGHT BE WRONG? hehehehehe Welcome to anonymity, a powers worst enemy.

Still praying

XTE · Jul 15, 2006

Kent Hovind was arrested on more than 50 counts....

http://pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060714/NEWS01/607140333/1006

pastorkevin73 · Jul 15, 2006

TEBeliever said:
Until we hear everything?! Can you at least make a reasonable request? You could that line out into infinity and never get anything accomplished. "Hey Pastor Kevin, I speant 40 years with the guy and he told me himself that I know everything he knows..."

Pastor Kevin: Matt, be honest, you still don't know so nothing you say can even compare to what he says.

Conveniently he's on your side of the argument.

Now, the other point is....I could be an actual respected scientist and DO THE WORK such as published WORKS or I can just claim to be for some folks and that'll work as long as I support their argument.

We aren't gonna respect a dentist as an evolutionary biologist UNTIL he publishes a respect work. WE EARN RESPECT. He earned yours because you pat each other on the back, that's not fair to you and it's not fair anyone. The Heaven's Gate Cult patted each other on the back to death.

Pastor Kevin, when you say "we can't judge until we've read and heard everything he has to say" it's just a muddying of the waters, a smoke screen to get out of accountability. Stay with the argument please and make a stand for what you believe in. Don't let that stand rule you though. If Evolution was superceded by something better tomorrow or if every suddenly pointed towards YEC I'd change, I'D CHANGE and it'd be the most respectful, upstanding thing I could think of ever doing. WHO CARES ON THE WEB IF YOU SAY YOU MIGHT BE WRONG? hehehehehe Welcome to anonymity, a powers worst enemy.

Still praying

Can I ask you a question? Have you published a "respected work"? What is a "respected work" anyway?

As for your praying; what are you praying about and for who?

XTE · Jul 16, 2006

pastorkevin73 said:
Can I ask you a question? Have you published a "respected work"? What is a "respected work" anyway?

As for your praying; what are you praying about and for who?

A respected work is something deemed respected by peer review(not personal review) that you worked on. People try to get one of these on way to Masters and afterwards to stay leaders in their field.

I don't have a "respected work." I never claimed to have one. I only claim that I respect peoples opinions if they show a lot of knowledge on the subject and a "respected work" would do that to great effect. A dentist? You really expect us to believe a dentist without him having some work to show us? Can you get us this work? We tell you what we need and you get it kinda thing.

I bet I can find a dentist that disagrees with your dentist.

He agrees with you so you respect him. Admit it. You don't hold him in doubt. He tells you how right you have been and you love him for it and that's why you respect him.

I respect people because when I try to doubt them it never adds up against them. Kent Hovind NEVER ADDED UP.

Now he's in jail, you've had a chance to see the thread and respond and of all people I expect you to first. Why haven't you posted in the Kent Hovind was arrested thread yet?

pastorkevin73 · Jul 16, 2006

TEBeliever said:
A respected work is something deemed respected by peer review(not personal review) that you worked on. People try to get one of these on way to Masters and afterwards to stay leaders in their field.

I don't have a "respected work." I never claimed to have one. I only claim that I respect peoples opinions if they show a lot of knowledge on the subject and a "respected work" would do that to great effect. A dentist? You really expect us to believe a dentist without him having some work to show us? Can you get us this work? We tell you what we need and you get it kinda thing.

I bet I can find a dentist that disagrees with your dentist.

He agrees with you so you respect him. Admit it. You don't hold him in doubt. He tells you how right you have been and you love him for it and that's why you respect him.

I respect people because when I try to doubt them it never adds up against them. Kent Hovind NEVER ADDED UP.

Now he's in jail, you've had a chance to see the thread and respond and of all people I expect you to first. Why haven't you posted in the Kent Hovind was arrested thread yet?

So why should I believe what you have to say on evolution is you haven't written a "respected work"?

As for the Kent Hovind thread I haven't read it.

XTE · Jul 16, 2006

pastorkevin73 said:
So why should I believe what you have to say on evolution is you haven't written a "respected work"?

As for the Kent Hovind thread I haven't read it.

I can reference respected work on the subject that truly employs the scientific method is why.

By the way, I do think the Creation/Evolution debate will have something substantial come from it and that is how we as human beings THINK and REACT. I might as well start thanking you now.

Also, I'd like to watch one of these videos online of Kent Hovinds and go over his hate speech in live chat if anyone is interested. I watched a whole one through the other day and I am completely appaulled at the display.

random_guy · Jul 16, 2006

pastorkevin73 said:
So why should I believe what you have to say on evolution is you haven't written a "respected work"?

As for the Kent Hovind thread I haven't read it.

You don't have to believe in his claims, but if he gives sources from respected works, then you do have to examine what sources he is using. If they are scientific sources, and he is correctly interpreting them, then you either accept his claims or don't accept them. However, if you choose to not accept the claims, and your reason is he's some random guy on the internet, then you probably don't understand how scientific discourse and peer review works.

As long as someone correctly uses scientific evidence to back up their claims, it doesn't matter how they are, you need to take the claim seriously. That's why evolutionists tend to mention scientific research, articles, or information or can provide references when asked. Try to see if Creationists can even do the same.

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