Creationism/Evolution

Kenny'sID said:

Sometimes what we call understanding is no more than twisting the bible to draw the conclusuon we wish to draw.
That fact has been made beyond evident on this thread.

Some clearly speak for the master of confusion.

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Are you implying that some Christians here are speaking for the devil?
If so, I'd retract that before you get reported and banned.

Preposterous accusation.

Strong in Him said:

When I said that God is outside time, you replied that I was assuming something that was not Biblical

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And in context, it was not at all biblical.

Strong in Him said:

Not if you're going to judge me, accuse me of twisting Scripture, running away from the truth and imply that I am siding with devils.

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Well you answered some, just not the tough questions that I did not expect you would answer, like the one on do you go to church every 7,000 years, because it blows your 1000 year theory right out of the water. I mean you wanted me to cover that so, there you go.

Anyway, your excuse for leaving is common, and right on time, right when the questioning gets tough, so I suggest this is a good time for the following...

Strong in Him said:

So I'm out of here.
Carry on flinging false accusations if you like.

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No false accusations, just false comments by yourself, and I can't say I blame you for being done, I would get out too, if I were you.

Isilwen said:

So, basically, you are saying that we're not Christian?

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I think it was more the "bible believing" part.

No offense but if you don't believe the Genesis account... are you "bible believing?

JacksBratt said:

I think it was more the "bible believing" part.

No offense but if you don't believe the Genesis account... are you "bible believing?

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Of course. Why must I believe things are literal just because someone else does. All Christians are Bible believing not all Christians are literalist

Taodeching said:

Of course. Why must I believe things are literal just because someone else does. All Christians are Bible believing not all Christians are literalist

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Sorry, but that is a contradiction IMO.

Do you believe:

Exodus 31:17

King James Version


17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Check out this bit from: Did Jesus Say He Created in Six Literal Days?

In John 5:45–47, Jesus says, “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” In this passage, Jesus makes it clear that one must believe what Moses wrote. And one of the passages in the writings of Moses in Exodus 20:11 states: “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.”

It's OK to say you're a Christian.. as I do believe that you are.. if you believe on Christ and His death and resurrection as payment for your sins and as your savior..

However... Many Christians are not fully "bible believing"... IMO

KomatiiteBIF said:

Do you view the theory of plate tectonics as methodological naturalism too?

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Plate tectonic theory has nothing to do with Darwinian evolutionary claims, that I’ve ever seen.

Kenny'sID said:

No false accusations,

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You accused me of adding to, and twisting, Scripture.

chad kincham said:

Plate tectonic theory has nothing to do with Darwinian evolutionary claims, that I’ve ever seen.

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It has everything to do with evolution. It is the backbone of the fossil succession.

You have to familiarize yourself with geology if you intend to have an informed opinion of the theory of evolution.

JacksBratt said:

For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

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The context of this verse is about the Law, not the writings about the literacy of the creation. If by your interpretation of Luke 5:45, then we should believe the moon is an independent body of light because Genesis 1:16 says he made two lights; we should reject the Sun being a star, because in that verse it says "he also made the stars" giving them a different association. Do you believe all this?

JacksBratt said:

Sorry, but that is a contradiction IMO.

Do you believe:

Exodus 31:17

King James Version


17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

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I believe it s there but I don't believe in literalism for everything in the Bible nor should anyone have to. A Christian is one who believes in Christ, His coming, dying, and rising again. No where does it say that any Christian must acquiesce themselves to many modern evangelical/fundamentalist ideas of literalism. Further nowhere does it say that to be Bible believing one must take every account in Scripture as literal.

Taodeching said:

I believe it s there but I don't believe in literalism for everything in the Bible nor should anyone have to.

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I agree.. you don't have to. But.. you cannot say that you are a "Bible believing Christian" if you don't believe it... can you?

Not being able to accept that it is literal... is not believing it.

Taodeching said:

A Christian is one who believes in Christ, His coming, dying, and rising again. No where does it say that any Christian must acquiesce themselves to many modern evangelical/fundamentalist ideas of literalism.

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Correct.. but... who said that this is "modern". Who named it "literalism"

When I was a kid it was simply solid "Bible believing" Christianity.. not... modern evangelical fundamentalist literalism.... that sounds like modern lingo for previously accepted doctrine.. coming from people with new ideas.

But, a Christian is someone who accepts that they are a sinner and unable to pay their sin debt on their own.. So, they accept the free gift of salvation from the one that they know to be the Messiah and He washes away their sins and grants them eternal life.

You're right... nothing states that you have to believe every word... to be saved..

Further nowhere does it say that to be Bible believing one must take every account in Scripture as literal.

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Yes, again.. you are correct. However, belief or unbelief does not determine truth. We all have our opinions on many things.

Christ preformed many miracles. They are all supernatural. All Christians believe these far out super natural unscientific impossibilities and that they will save their soul and bring them eternal life..

After that.. all of the other supernatural, unscientific, impossibilities... are questioned and many times denied acceptance.

People will believe some things because their lives literally depend on it... the rest.... meh!!!!

Well, there is nothing in the Bible that I believe is false or unbelievable... nothing.

Cis.jd said:

The context of this verse is about the Law, not the writings about the literacy of the creation. If by your interpretation of Luke 5:45, then we should believe the moon is an independent body of light because Genesis 1:16 says he made two lights; we should reject the Sun being a star, because in that verse it says "he also made the stars" giving them a different association. Do you believe all this?

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Is there two lights in the sky?
So.. yes.. I believe all of this.. Whether the moon gives it's own light or not... has been debated here before. That is not the topic of this thread.

Strong in Him said:

You accused me of adding to, and twisting, Scripture.

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And?

JacksBratt said:

Is there two lights in the sky?

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This would depend on the context or point of reference we are talking about, lets find out: Do you believe that moon reflects the sun's light or is it actually a ball of light/energy - the same way the sun and stars are?

Simon D said:

Hello!

I have a question and I would appreciate the input of the good people of this fine internet community!

My question is, is evolution compatible with a belief in Christianity?

So for some background to my research on this, I understand there is strict creationism (Genesis is literal), then there is the position that it is just a story, and that life evolved through theistic evolution. It's even said that Genesis creation was never to be taken at least fully literally.

So here is my thing, if evolution is true, why did Paul say,

'For Adam was first formed, then Eve.' 1 Tim 2:13.

It is clear that Paul believed in a literal creation of Adam, then Eve.

So if Paul is making it clear that it is not a story, but it's true, how can theistic evolution be reconciled as a genuine Christian belief?

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For me, you can't reconcile the Bible and evolution.

Genesis 1:26, 31 says, "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground ... God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day." I asked myself, "How can Adam be created on the sixth day of creation and only live to 930 years old if the days of creation are anything other than literal 24 hour periods?

Matthew 19:4, Jesus says, "Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female ..." Why would Jesus refer to Adam and Eve to make a point about marriage and divorce, if they were just a metaphor?

In Romans 5:12, Paul writes, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people because all sinned—" Evolution teaches that death was in the world before mankind. The Bible says otherwise. To say that death was in the world before sin destroys the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul told the church in Corinth, "Paul said, "So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit (1 Corinthians 15:45)." Why would Paul refer to Jesus as the "last Adam" if the "first man Adam" wasn't real?

Genesis 2:19 says, "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name." If evolution were true and animals had been around for millions of years, why would God take the time to allow Adam to name them? Were they nameless for millions of years?

The genealogy of Jesus, given in Luke 3:23-38 puts Adam in the Geneology of Jesus along with dozens of other people. Are all the other people in the genealogy mythical, metaphors, millions of years old, less evolved humans, etc., if evolution is true? The time from Adam to Jesus is only about 4,000 years. That is far less time to "develop" on the evolutionary "tree."

In my opinion, inserting evolution destroys the Bible. That is why those that try to insert it have to come up with extrabiblical theories like the Gap Theory, Two Creation stories, Genesis is a metaphor or allegory, and so on, to make it work. A clear reading of scripture doesn't support evolution. It supports creation just like God said. Grace and Peace.

JacksBratt said:

I agree.. you don't have to. But.. you cannot say that you are a "Bible believing Christian" if you don't believe it... can you?

Not being able to accept that it is literal... is not believing it.

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Of course it does, really being literal is not really believing the Bible. It is the literalist that are not Bible believing Christians

Simon D said:

Hello!

I have a question and I would appreciate the input of the good people of this fine internet community!

My question is, is evolution compatible with a belief in Christianity?

So for some background to my research on this, I understand there is strict creationism (Genesis is literal), then there is the position that it is just a story, and that life evolved through theistic evolution. It's even said that Genesis creation was never to be taken at least fully literally.

So here is my thing, if evolution is true, why did Paul say,

'For Adam was first formed, then Eve.' 1 Tim 2:13.

It is clear that Paul believed in a literal creation of Adam, then Eve.

So if Paul is making it clear that it is not a story, but it's true, how can theistic evolution be reconciled as a genuine Christian belief?

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Never!

Strong in Him said:

The origin of sin is that Adam was commanded by God not to do something, and he did it. He disobeyed his Creator and sin came into the world.

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Exactly, Adam. A real man who lived and disobeyed God. Those who believe evolution believe Adam is nothing more than a parable character.

This is a completely separate issue from the question, "were trees created instantly and fully grown, or did God plant saplings and they grew over many years?"

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Not at all separate when you have people calling Adam a parable. A story meant to teach us something but not a real man. This is the issue.

Fully grown of course, but this is not the issue, its a red herring to take peoples focus off what is important and that is we are separated from God because of Adam's sin and we die because of Adam's sin.
God says death is an enemy that came in after sin.
Evolution believes not only millions of years but millions of years of death as simply the normal state of things.

Obviously there was a first.
As I said, the Hebrew word for man is Adam - it was not a name then. However he arrived in the world and however he was created, there was a first man. And it was to him that God gave the command not to eat - a command which he chose to disobey.

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Adam's name means humanity, and all humanity came from them both. But Adam himself was a real man. A man who fell, loved, had children and died.

Like I said, of course he was; I've no problem with that.
The first man was a man - that goes without saying.

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But this is not what evolution believes. They don't believe there was a perfect world with no death, that man fell from a place of near perfection into sin.
To them man is nothing more than an animal who changed gradually over time and millions of years of death.

I never said that Adam was simply a story - nor am I arguing FOR evolution.

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I don't know what you believe now, too many days has past for me to remember. I must have noticed you giving some kind of nod to evolution though for me to say what I said.
I am deeply concerned about Christians who go along with evolution due to not understanding the origin of sin and death. If people doubt the first book, that can spread to doubt to further books. This is the only reason I speak up for creation.

All that I'm saying is that;
- the Bible is not a scientific textbook and its purpose is not to explain HOW the world was created. Whereas God gives gifts to scientists so that they can discover, investigate and tell us more about God's creation.

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If only that were completely true. Science only has the present. It is man striving to understand what he sees and tests. They can look at things in the present, they can test things in the present. But then to take the present and say this will take us back to measure the past and that we know better than God's word is not only incorrect since there is no way of knowing how the world was at creation, its also arrogance. The created world is not the current world, the world we live on now is the groaning world. Not to mention acceleration of things. God stretched out the stars and they are still expanding ever outwards. The Bible on the other hand doesn't need science, the Bible is truth and history. If God says he made everything in 6 days then he did. If man says we measure this fossil to be 6 million years old, it isn't God who is wrong, it's man.

- if someone does not believe that the world was made in 6, literal, 24 hour days and everything was created instantly, it does not mean they cannot be a Christian, that they are being deceived by devils, that they are against God and on the side of science, or any of the other things that I have read in various forums over the years.

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I didn't say they are not a Christian. Only God knows that. You can find many posts of mine where I have said that. So lets get that point out the way first.

What does deeply troubles me is that if a person who claims Christ is not believing God's word in one area it can lead to doubt in other areas. I've seen it happen. Which is why the first thing Satan said to Eve was "Did God really say" He cast doubt on God's word. This was and is Satan's greatest weapon against us. And those who do not know Christ have even more reason to not believe in God if they believe the world can create itself.
And even if they never doubt Jesus, they are missing out on the full and wonderful picture of what God has planned. Eden was given to us as a taste of the new heavens and new world that God plans. The fact it will be made back to that is again part of the plan. Its not going to be made back into a primordial soup. To not see all of God's plan spread out is like looking through a tube at the Sistine chapel. Sure they can believe in ape men and still be saved, but what a shame. Some people will have their salvation but never grow and never fully understand.

I agree with John Stott when he said that it is for the scientists to tell us the HOW of creation; what the Bible tells us is the who and why. GOD created, GOD spoke, GOD saw that it was all good. This is God's world, he made it for a purpose - it is not something that randomly came about when some atoms happened to collide/divide/explode. This world is not a mistake or a result of chance - God is behind it all and is in charge.

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They have zero idea about creation. That world isn't here to test. The world changed completely at the fall and again at the flood. They are testing the current world, the groaning world and it has thrown them off. This current world will tell them nothing about how God created. The same way a person without Christ can tell you nothing about Christ, because they have nothing to give.

The Bible teaches that there was no death before sin.
If sin brought in death then evolution is impossible.
If sin didn't bring in death then the Bible is wrong.
Only one stance can be correct.

God created man and man chose to disobey God, true; that is not in dispute.

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God created man close to a perfect state with no death. This is no way gels with any kind of evolutionary view.

But that doesn't address, or affect, the question; how was the world created? The Bible does not answer this, it says "God spoke and it was so" - but those things could actually have taken thousands of years, in our time, to come into being.
That, for me, doesn't matter and doesn't affect the Gospel one bit. God created man, man rebelled and Jesus, as the second Adam, came to restore all things and reconcile us to the Father.

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If God had wanted to take thousands of years he could have done so. But he told us that he took 6.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.

The 7 days were to give us the week. That is the only reason God took even that long. It was for our benefit. He could have created it all instantly if he had so wished.

The main point is death and yes it does affect the gospel.
1)If death is simply a normal by product of life or 2) If death was a direct result of sin. That is a huge and important difference.

We know Adam and Eve were not alive for thousands of years before they fell. One because Adam died 930 years after he was created and two because Eve didn't get pregnant until after the fall. Thousands of years give you nothing.
Thousands has nothing to do with evolution. That requires millions of years, with death occurring every single day of those millions of years simply as the normal way of being. Nor does it fit with God's word. Thousands of years doesn't give you anything.

Kenny'sID said:

And?

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False accusation.

Strong in Him said:

False accusation.

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I thought you were done here? Tell you what, you may have the last word.