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Creation Wiki

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Vance

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Ah, well I am not sure whether an article talking about the book qualifies as "Headline News". In fact, I am sure it does not. Second, the "news" definitely was not that some "top scientists" have put out a book which contains some amazing new discovery, as your post suggested. You have to admit that your post was hyperbole, at the least, bordering on . . . Well, let's just leave it at hyperbole.
 
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Tachocline

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Also notice how many do not work in the areas it claims next to their names. I picked a few at random and found, what a shock, they do not work in those areas and do not publish in those areas. Many of them have never worked in science since they were college kids.

John Rankin Cosmologist - got a PhD on galaxy formation and then left academia. Then became a computer scientist and workd in that. You cannot claim he is a cosmologist.

Safarti Chemist - not since he got his PhD twenty years ago - he works for AIG and does no research in science at all, had not published a science article since his grad school days

and on and on and on...
 
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Vance

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Hey, I got my juris doctorate (law degree), would I qualify for the list if I accepted YEC'ism?

This list is really "people who graduated from college who still hold on the YEC'ism".

As I point out above, this list should be DRAMATICALLY longer, since even with 700 names, it would only represent .015% (ie, much less than 1%) of the total number of scientists in the relevant fields.
 
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Didaskomenos

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According to my count, only 34 of the 155 people on that list were of biological, biochemical, or microbiological fields. Only 10 are geologists, and when we count geneticists, it drops to 8, with the lowest showing of paleontologists (4, including one whose main area is biology). What does a linguist (which I am) know about evolutionary theory? Not a heck of a lot. Educators, astronomers, engineers, and a "creationist archaeologist" are likewise not qualified to speak on evolution. And if evolutionary theory is indeed correct, it singlehandedly falsifies a literal reading of the Genesis creation account.

This list reads even more hollowly when you realize that it does not seem to differentiate YEC's from OEC's. Does anyone know otherwise?
 
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Apollo Rhetor

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Since when is truth determined by number of followers? I'm sure I don't need to point out the authorities of Galileo's day.

Whether it's 0.02% or 50% of scientists that ascribe to YEC, it matters not. Why?
* Many of the 480,000 scientists have not investigated YEC claims or tested them. Yet every single one of the (let's say) 700 you mentioned have. So what would be a more useful statistic (and even then, doubtefully) would be the number of scientists who have investigated YEC claims (properly) compared with how many are YEC's.
* It disproves the pseudo argument that scientists are better people. It shows that people who pass a degree can accept a lie (I'm not saying which side is wrong, but purely that both sides cannot be right, so at least one is in the wrong). Scientists are not objective and unbiased
* It counters the argument, "do YOU have a science degree?" since having a science degree is no guaruntee of your view on this issue (again, we'd need a more useful statistic)

Then there's "lies, damn lies, and statistics". This list of Creation scientists is not to say "you too should be a YEC". It's simply to counter some of the poor arguments made against YEC.
 
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Vance

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No, having a science degree is not a 100% guarantee that you will accept an old earth and evolution, it is only a 99.95% guarantee.

And the point definitely IS relevant. The simple fact is that IF Creation Science was supported by legitimate facts and its theories were sound, there can be no doubt whatsoever that it would be accepted by a LOT more scientists than do right now. Thus, the fact that it isn't says a great deal about whether it is valid or not.

If they had any substance at all, then a legitimate scientist in the relevent field would present it in a legitimate way, with all the scientific backing, etc, and it would begin to gain acceptance through the peer review process, etc. Next thing you know, it would have a following of NON-Creationist scientists as well. This is what happens to good, solid, well-founded scientific propositions.
 
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Apollo Rhetor

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it is only a 99.95% guarantee.
ONLY if the person had no view on YEC beforehand , or already rejected YEC through association (having heard of some kooky Christian rubbish without looking into it). As I said, these statistics are useless unless we are making a comparison to the number of people who have given serious attention to examining YEC claims. Even then we might want to eliminate atheists from the numbers. We need useful statistics - this is meaningless without controlling the circumstances and determining outside influences. Who is going to be surprised if a man who has never heard of YEC or given it attention attends a course that teaches Darwinism as truth comes out believing it? Not me.

Tell me out of all the Christian scientists who have given serious consideration to the YEC claims, how many are YEC's? That would be a far more useful statistic.

By serious investigation I mean an open minded look at the claims, rather than an a priori belief that they are wrong.

Vance, what exactly is it that you think YEC's reject?

YEC's claim that there is no proof of common ancestry. We don't disagree with the scientific definition of evolution:
"A change in allele frequencies in a population over generations"

That happens. There is no debate, and no argument about it.

Speciation occurs. Again, no debate (just how long ago and what Creationists claimed that speciation did not occur?).

What's the issue? The claim that all living things share a common ancestor. This is the unscientific claim that uses philosophical arguments to support it. Unless you can propose an empirical test to verify whether we share a common ancestor with a shark.
 
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mrversatile48

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I'll just say 1st that, even if the Word of God were opposed by every man on Earth & thru history, God would be right

Unbelievers are called "the world" because they will always be the majority

As Jesus said, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction & many walk down it: strait & narrow is the road to life & few find it"

Romans 1 emphasises how sin darkens the human heart & renders man's thinking futile

1 Corinthians 1 underlines that God has made human wisdom foolish, & chooses to use those the world consider fools to confound those whom the world rates so wise, & uses those the world despises to confound those it admires

Philippians 1 says we should have the same attitude as Christ, who "made Himself of no reputation"

Are we prepared to be "fools for Christ"?

Jesus even said, "I thank you, Father, that you have hidden these things from the wise & revealed them to babes"

God's Word is intended to communicate with all people, not just academics

The quote I print now was preceded by Romans 1:20 - "since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities - His eternal power & divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse"

Now read on, as they say...

With the publication of Darwin on Trial in 1991, Johnson conferred a Berkeley pedigree on such thinking by marshalling evidence against the sufficiency of evolution to account for the origin of species. Doubts About Darwin concentrates on Johnson's argument and traces its impact on a core group of followers in academia. Woodward counts himself among this group.

Although (like many books based on dissertations) it's laced with technical terms, Doubts About Darwin demonstrates that Johnson is a master rhetorician. As Johnson himself explains in the book's forward, "Rhetoric is the art of framing an argument so that it can be appreciated by an audience." He calls it "a noble art."

Woodward analyzes the rhetoric associated with the modern ID movement that began in 1985 with the publication of Evolution: A Theory in Crisis by Australian physician and biochemist Michael Denton; that spread throughout the U.S. evangelical community through Johnson's writings and speaking during the 1990s; that peaked in 1996 with the publication of mathematician David Berlinski's article "The Deniable Darwin" and biochemist Michael Behe's Darwin's Black Box; and continues with the subsequent publication of The Design Inference by William Dembski and Icons of Evolution by Jonathan Wells.

Woodward measures the rhetorical effectiveness of each of these major ID works. More than anyone else in the ID movement, Johnson highlighted the effect of scientific materialism (or methodological naturalism) in shaping the debate over origins. By their own definition of their field, modern scientists investigate only natural causes, not supernatural ones. In his various popular books and public statements, Johnson denounces such reasoning as circular.

"We define science as the pursuit of materialist alternatives. Now what kind of answers do we come up with?" he noted in a 1997 interview with Tim Stafford for CT. "By gosh, we come up with materialist answers." Darwinism may be the best naturalistic answer to biological origins, Johnson stresses, but it is still wrong.

As Woodward illustrates, the writings of other key ID proponents have broadened the critique of Darwinism.

Must go!

Ian
 
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Vance

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Christianity is the largest, most popular, religion in the world, does that mean it might be false due to its massive popular appeal?

Scripture also tells us to seek wisdom and to increase in knowledge.

The plan of salvation will always seem foolishness to the non-believer. Seeking out the will of God and running our lives accordingly will seem foolish. Loving your enemy and turning the other cheek will always seem foolish. Placing the needs and desires of others ahead of ourselves will always seem foolish.

All the verses quoted speak to these distinctions, and for all these reasons Christians will always seem foolish and even "childlike" in their Faith.

But being ignorant is not in the plan of God for any Christian. Being "foolish" in the knowledge of God's Creation is not what is being addressed in those verses.

Should the Church have continued to believe the "foolishness" of geocentrism, rather than accept the "Worldly wisdom" of heliocentrism?
 
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