Creation Vs. Theistic Evolution

[jbarcher]

I don't know.

Cal--that's a genetic fallacy. Even if the theory of evolution came from a seven year old, that is still not an argument against it. More on genetic fallacies.

 

[Cal]

I don't know.

Cal--that's a genetic fallacy. Even if the theory of evolution came from a seven year old, that is still not an argument against it. More on genetic fallacies.

Boy, then you haven't heard what comes from my seven year old then!

 

[jazzbird]

Are we arguing only literal six day (as in 24 hour) creation and evolution? Just need some clarification. I don't believe God used evolution to create the world and I don't believe he created it in a literal six days.

 

[jazzbird]

Holy Warrior,

Please forgive me for butting in for a quick post. I just saw your post and I wanted to pass on a few thoughts that I have compiled on this subject.

Ok, I think the Word of God states plainly that God created everything in six day’s by simply commanding it to come into existence. “Excluding Genesis 1, whenever the word day is used in the bible with a number (over 400 times) it always means an ordinary day—there are no exceptions.”

Hey Cal. YOWM, the word for day actually does not always mean a literal day. It also mean an age, time or period. I believe there are other times in the Bible when Yowm refers to a period of time, such as The Day Of The Lord, which is mentioned numerous times in Scripture.

 

[Cal]

Hey Cal. YOWM, the word for day actually does not always mean a literal day. It also mean an age, time or period. I believe there are other times in the Bible when Yowm refers to a period of time, such as The Day Of The Lord, which is mentioned numerous times in Scripture.

But when day is used throughout the entire bible like it is used in Genesis 1 it alway means a literal day, always.

“Excluding Genesis 1, whenever the word day is used in the bible with a number (over 400 times) it always means an ordinary day—there are no exceptions.”

“Whenever the phrase ‘evening and morning’ is used outside of Genesis 1 without the word day in the bible (38 times) it always means an ordinary day—no exception. Whenever the words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’ are used individually with the word day in the bible (in fact 23 times each) outside of Genesis 1, the word day always means an ordinary day.”

“Whenever the word ‘night’ is used with the word day in the bible (52 times outside of Genesis 1) the word day always means an ordinary day. In other words, whenever the word day is used with a number, or with the words evening or morning, or with the word night, or whenever the phrase ‘evening and morning’ is used, outside of Genesis 1 in the bible the Hebrew word for day always means an ordinary day, or the phrase evening morning means an ordinary day.”

 

[jazzbird]

But when day is used throughout the entire bible like it is used in Genesis 1 it alway means a literal day, always.

“Excluding Genesis 1, whenever the word day is used in the bible with a number (over 400 times) it always means an ordinary day—there are no exceptions.”

In Zecheriah the same language is used to describe a period of time, as is used in Genesis 1 - 'echad yom.'

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day [echad yom].

Zechariah 14:7-8 For it will be a unique day [echad yom] which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

Verse 8 makes it clear that this will not be one day, but an extended amount of time.

“Whenever the phrase ‘evening and morning’ is used outside of Genesis 1 without the word day in the bible (38 times) it always means an ordinary day—no exception. Whenever the words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’ are used individually with the word day in the bible (in fact 23 times each) outside of Genesis 1, the word day always means an ordinary day.”

“Whenever the word ‘night’ is used with the word day in the bible (52 times outside of Genesis 1) the word day always means an ordinary day. In other words, whenever the word day is used with a number, or with the words evening or morning, or with the word night, or whenever the phrase ‘evening and morning’ is used, outside of Genesis 1 in the bible the Hebrew word for day always means an ordinary day, or the phrase evening morning means an ordinary day.”

Psalms 90:6 In the morning grass flourishes, and sprouts anew; Toward evening it fades, and withers away.

Now, we know that the grass does not in fact grow in the morning and die at night, right?

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Daniel's vision covers many years, not one evening and morning.



We are told in Scripture that God does not measure time as we do.

2 Peter 3:8 2 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If this is true, why must we measure time in creation as 24 hours?

 

[Cal]

In Zecheriah the same language is used to describe a period of time, as is used in Genesis 1 - 'echad yom.'

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day [echad yom].

Zechariah 14:7-8 For it will be a unique day [echad yom] which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

Verse 8 makes it clear that this will not be one day, but an extended amount of time.

The Second Coming will be a unique day, like never seen before or recorded in history. To associate this "unique day" with ordinary day's used in the bible takes away it's "uniqueness," don't you think?

The Second Coming will change a lot, so it's not a good idea to compare Second Coming events and changes with normal every "day" events of today and yesterday.

Psalms 90:6 In the morning grass flourishes, and sprouts anew; Toward evening it fades, and withers away.

Now, we know that the grass does not in fact grow in the morning and die at night, right?

Wrong, there are many flowers and other grasses that do just exactly that. The verse immediately preceeding your verse says, "You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew." In the morning it flourishes and sprouts anew; Toward evening it fades and withers away.

Not all grasses and flowers do that but some do and the verse is realting to grasses and flowers "like" these.

Consider the Morning Glories:

The Lesson of the Morning Glory!

© Copyright 1998 by Veronica M. Hay
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

I planted seeds in my little garden this year.
I have never planted seeds before because I am not a very
patient person and waiting for the little green shoots to
rise above the ground was just too much for me.

But this year, I thought I would give it a try.
I thought it would be a good metaphor for me to plant
something and watch it grow, much as I have many times,
planted thoughts, dreams and affirmations and watched
many of them become a reality.


And so in the Spring of this year, I planted my garden.
I chose many types of flowers and among them, Morning Glories.
Within a month, many of the other flowers were bursting
through the earth, but not the Morning Glories.

Each morning I would run outside to check on them and nothing,
nothing for several weeks more. I was about to give up on them.
I was sure that they just did not 'take' so to speak.
And then one day, it happened!

They had broken through the earth and were starting to climb.
And climb and climb and climb they did....
with their big beautiful heart shaped leaves.

And so the saga continued, nothing for weeks and weeks and
weeks but more and more beautiful leaves. And I thought to myself,
"Well, leaves are nice, but that is all I will probably get at this point.
" And then one fine and glorious morning, there it was,
the most beautiful sky-blue morning glory I have ever seen!!!
It seemed like a miracle to me. I had waited over 3 months for
this one delicate, funnel-shaped flower to show up and
now here it was, in all its splendor.


It reminded me of just how many times I had waited in life for
something I had longed for and how incredible it felt when it
finally arrived and also how many times, that I had wanted to
throw in the towel and just give up.


But I wasn't prepared for what was to happen next with these
little flowers and I was surprised and deeply saddened by it.
Roses and geraniums and daisies and most other flowers bloom
and stay around for a while but not Morning Glories.
Morning Glories open themselves up to the world, in the morning,
in all of their glory, hence the name Morning Glory.
And if you look closely at them, you will see how extraordinary
they are both in colour and texture and that in their centre is
a kind of golden light that shines from within.


But here is the hard part...
At the end of the day, they turn a most beautiful shade of lavender,
and then close up, wither and die. They live for only one day
and then they are gone.


I cannot tell you how much this saddened me and what a profound
effect this little flower had upon my life. I kept thinking how
sad to be so beautiful and live for only one day.
And then I suddenly realized what a gift they were.

You see it doesn't matter how long your life is.
It only matters that you were here, in all your glory,
that you opened up completely and let your light shine
and that you brought joy to those who came into contact with you.
That's what matters to the morning glory
and that's what really matters to all of us.


The morning glories make me appreciate every new day now,
in a way I didn't before. Each evening I go and visit with
them knowing those particular ones won't be here tomorrow,
new ones will take their place.
If we knew when we woke up in the morning,
that we only had that one day to really live,
life would be very different indeed for many of us.

Now, each morning I give thanks that I have been given
the gift of another day in all its glory.
We can learn from all of life if we remain open
to the beauty that is all around us.
And nature can be one of our greatest teachers.

What a profound lesson from such a simple flower.
Thank you, my sweet little morning glories!

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Daniel's vision covers many years, not one evening and morning.

This is support for a literal day, it is merely referring to how long the vision took. That's why Daniel fainted afterwards, he was tired because of the vision took all day and night.

DAN 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

We are told in Scripture that God does not measure time as we do.

2 Peter 3:8 2 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If this is true, why must we measure time in creation as 24 hours?

Because we are not the Lord. The Lord created day's for us to live in but not Himself. He is outside time. Notice also the word day used in this verse is just another example of how the bible refers to the word day as a 24 hour day otherwise the verse becomes meaningless.

 

[jazzbird]

The Second Coming will be a unique day, like never seen before or recorded in history. To associate this "unique day" with ordinary day's used in the bible takes away it's "uniqueness," don't you think?

The Second Coming will change a lot, so it's not a good idea to compare Second Coming events and changes with normal every "day" events of today and yesterday.

What this version translates as 'unique day' is 'echod yowm,' the same words used in Genesis 1. I don't understand why that is not relevant simply because it is prophecy. I'm just not convinced that a numeral added to the word yowm means that it can only be a 24 hour period. The definition of the word clearly states that it can be a period of time.

Getting beyond the specifics of words, I find some of the young earth theories to be problematic, and that is the main reason that I believe old earth creationism is more likely.

Wrong, there are many flowers and other grasses that do just exactly that. The verse immediately preceeding your verse says, "You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew." In the morning it flourishes and sprouts anew; Toward evening it fades and withers away.

Not all grasses and flowers do that but some do and the verse is realting to grasses and flowers "like" these.

But that logic doesn't make sense in light of the fact that Moses is comparing man's life to the grass. The grass withers in winter, as man withers in the winter of life. Man does not live one day, but for a period of time.

As for the morning glory, only the blossom withers at the end of the day; the plant itself does not. I have not heard of grasses that die in a day, but I don't know much about horticulture.

According to Strong's the word translated grass used here is 'chatsiyr' and the definition is 'grass, leek, green grass, herbage.' Wouldn't herbage be considered the plants that animals eat? I don't know, to say that Moses is referring to specific types of flowers that close up at night, or wither in a day, just seems quite a bit of a stretch to me.

Perhaps we are pulling this poll too much off topic though. What do you think? I tend to do that sometimes.

 

[Cal]

What this version translates as 'unique day' is 'echod yowm,' the same words used in Genesis 1. I don't understand why that is not relevant simply because it is prophecy. I'm just not convinced that a numeral added to the word yowm means that it can only be a 24 hour period. The definition of the word clearly states that it can be a period of time.

Getting beyond the specifics of words, I find some of the young earth theories to be problematic, and that is the main reason that I believe old earth creationism is more likely.

But if we just let the Scriptures translate itself it starts to become clear this is a unique day that "is neither day nor night."

ZEC 14:7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

Prophecy is not the point here, the point is this is a new time, a new heaven and a new earth. There is no longer day nor night and at evening there will be light. That is what this Scripture is saying. To compare this unique day description to ordinary day's and then say "see ordinary day's must not be ordinary days" defeats the whole purpose of what this Scripture is trying to convey with there being a "new day" at the Second Coming the like of which has never ever been seen before on earth before.

But that logic doesn't make sense in light of the fact that Moses is comparing man's life to the grass. The grass withers in winter, as man withers in the winter of life. Man does not live one day, but for a period of time.

As for the morning glory, only the blossom withers at the end of the day; the plant itself does not. I have not heard of grasses that die in a day, but I don't know much about horticulture.

According to Strong's the word translated grass used here is 'chatsiyr' and the definition is 'grass, leek, green grass, herbage.' Wouldn't herbage be considered the plants that animals eat? I don't know, to say that Moses is referring to specific types of flowers that close up at night, or wither in a day, just seems quite a bit of a stretch to me.

Perhaps we are pulling this poll too much off topic though. What do you think? I tend to do that sometimes.

I think these comments are very helpful for everyone to understand why they believe what they believe.

Morning glories are just one example of how, as Jesus put's it "God clothes the grass (thru flowers)", except these flowers bloom in the morning and die at night. I used Morning Glories as an example because of it's obvious parallel with the verse and the comment that was made that this never happens. There are many other examples of grasses and flowers that have the same characteristics.

Having said that what I really believe the Holy Spirit is referring to is just green grass as you have mentioned.

Again, if we let Scripture translate itself we can see how the Holy Spirit specifically uses grass withering away in one day

JAM 1:11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

I can't tell you how often this has happened to me personally in Florida, we would sod early in the summer morning fresh green grass and by the end of the day patches of yellow would begin to appear everywhere throughout the yard because of the scorching sun. Surely you have seen this in the summer as well. Anyway, we would end up in a battle of watering and trying to save this grass for days, and quite frankly with about a 50% success rate.

I have also seen this in my yard with seasoned grass in late spring after days of cool spring rains fresh sprouts would begin to grow and be a bright green in the morning and then in just one unusally hot scorching spring day some of that grass would begin to yellow by late afternoon. It is so frustrating fighting the sun sometimes.

This is not unusual at all.

 

[jazzbird]

But if we just let the Scriptures translate itself it starts to become clear this is a unique day that "is neither day nor night."

ZEC 14:7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

Prophecy is not the point here, the point is this is a new time, a new heaven and a new earth. There is no longer day nor night and at evening there will be light. That is what this Scripture is saying. To compare this unique day description to ordinary day's and then say "see ordinary day's must not be ordinary days" defeats the whole purpose of what this Scripture is trying to convey with there being a "new day" at the Second Coming the like of which has never ever been seen before on earth before.

I don't think I believe this is a new time in the way that you do. I believe The Day of The Lord is His second coming - It is the time of His wrath as well as the time of our restoration. The new heaven and new earth have not yet come. The description of it being neither day nor night, yet there is light lines up with other descriptions of the end times:

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

think these comments are very helpful for everyone to understand why they believe what they believe.

Morning glories are just one example of how, as Jesus put's it "God clothes the grass (thru flowers)", except these flowers bloom in the morning and die at night. I used Morning Glories as an example because of it's obvious parallel with the verse and the comment that was made that this never happens. There are many other examples of grasses and flowers that have the same characteristics.

Having said that what I really believe the Holy Spirit is referring to is just green grass as you have mentioned.

Again, if we let Scripture translate itself we can see how the Holy Spirit specifically uses grass withering away in one day

JAM 1:11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

I can't tell you how often this has happened to me personally in Florida, we would sod early in the summer morning fresh green grass and by the end of the day patches of yellow would begin to appear everywhere throughout the yard because of the scorching sun. Surely you have seen this in the summer as well. Anyway, we would end up in a battle of watering and trying to save this grass for days, and quite frankly with about a 50% success rate.

I have also seen this in my yard with seasoned grass in late spring after days of cool spring rains fresh sprouts would begin to grow and be a bright green in the morning and then in just one unusally hot scorching spring day some of that grass would begin to yellow by late afternoon. It is so frustrating fighting the sun sometimes.

This is not unusual at all.

If the Scripture is talking about regular green grass, it just makes more sense to be speaking of a period of time. Though grass can be burnt by the sun in a day, that is not the norm. Granted you probably see a lot more scorched grass down in Florida than I do up in Wisconsion - grass is usually pretty lush up here. Anyway, I don't find there to be any reason for us not to take the reading as a period of time.

We often talk of human lives as seasons. James and others have created comparisons between grass and man to relay the fleeting nature of life. The simile makes more reasonable sense when we view it as a period of time. The grass is vibrant and growing (and alive) in the spring and summer, but by winter the frost and snow come, and kill the grass, or in the case of James, our lives may be destroyed by an empty pursuit or a tragedy represented by the summer's scorching sun. In the same way, we talk about people being in the spring, summer, fall and winter of their lives.

I don't believe your interpretation is wrong, I just like mine better. But seriously, whether the intent of this comparison is to convey a 24 hour day or a period of time isn't essential to our understanding of creation. There are places in the Bible where the duration of time is not clearly spelled out for us.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

I agree with Genesis being heavy on the "why" and lighter on the "how" but there are facts and clues within the "why". Properly applied science can help describe how our world came into being and how it works, but not science based upon assumptions or clouded by bias. Part of the problem is that we are shown Evolution to be fact and touted to be well proven by sound scientific methods... this is taught from our schools, books, and other media. It's totally understandable that we grow up thinking Evolution to be a fact. The fact however is that Evolution is a theory which isn't getting any closer to being proven, in fact it's due for another big Neo-Darwinism re-think to fit more square pegs into round holes. More and more scientists are questioning Evolution's assumptions, many coming from an Evolutionist background who see the many faults in the theory they had assumed to be true. Does this mean everything Evolution teaches is false? By no means, there is a lot of high quality science within the theory and a lot of truth, but don't accept the whole just because of some of the parts.

As to whether or not the earth was created in 6 days ... I'm not sure. I don't know if we can fully comprehend creation, or time for that matter. How does God deal with time? I concur with the majority in that if God can create a universe then questioning the time frame seems a little bit trivial, although it's interesting to think about. I would lean towards a literal 6 days just because that's what the Bible says.

...good job!
HTD

 

[Cal]

I don't think I believe this is a new time in the way that you do. I believe The Day of The Lord is His second coming - It is the time of His wrath as well as the time of our restoration. The new heaven and new earth have not yet come. The description of it being neither day nor night, yet there is light lines up with other descriptions of the end times:

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? .

I see. So you don't think these verses are referring to the Second Coming? OK, I understand where you are coming from now.

But it seems rather clear that they are, I mean what about these immediate preceeding verses:

ZEC 14:3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

ZEC 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

ZEC 14:7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

It sure seems like the Second Coming to me with a unique "day" only known to the Lord where there is no day or night but only light.

It just seems very inappropriate to compare this to the day's we are in now and then say "who knows what a real day is?!?"

If the Scripture is talking about regular green grass, it just makes more sense to be speaking of a period of time. Though grass can be burnt by the sun in a day, that is not the norm. Granted you probably see a lot more scorched grass down in Florida than I do up in Wisconsion - grass is usually pretty lush up here. Anyway, I don't find there to be any reason for us not to take the reading as a period of time.

I don't believe your interpretation is wrong, I just like mine better. But seriously, whether the intent of this comparison is to convey a 24 hour day or a period of time isn't essential to our understanding of creation. There are places in the Bible where the duration of time is not clearly spelled out for us.

Fair enough!

But, I did do a little research to see if the grass in Palastine was as bad as Florida and sure enough it is worse.

In Fausset's Bible Dictionary and Dictionary of Biblical Imagery there is commentary on the grass in Palastine pertaining to this exact verse in question. The commentary indicates that because of the hot dry climate grass will suddenly turn green at the slightest dew and without even a single rain drop.

Also it will wither by mid-afternoon because of the scorching sun. So it does not look rare at all, but really rather quite normal for the area. Florida grass is not so dramatic but these quick changes are not unusual there either.

I can appreciate you don't see this in Wisconsin.

But to use these points that this "just doesn't happen," or "it is extremely rare," and therefore a day can't mean a day seems to be forcing an interpretation on Scripture that just isn't there. Maybe it's just our lack of understanding of the area and climate that is the problem and not the common meaning of the word "day."

Of course this all get's back to the point of why would the Holy Spirit use the word "day" to mean a literal 24 hour day 513 times in Scripture the exact way it is used in Genesis 1 but not mean a 24 hour day in Genesis 1?

 

[jazzbird]

Cal, I apologize if I have come off arguementative or disrespectful in any way. That's not my intention at all. I believe that your views are valid, but I believe there are other considerations as well. I am not trying to say that you are wrong. My views on this matter are not set in stone.

I see. So you don't think these verses are referring to the Second Coming? OK, I understand where you are coming from now.

But it seems rather clear that they are, I mean what about these immediate preceeding verses:

ZEC 14:3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

ZEC 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

ZEC 14:7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

It sure seems like the Second Coming to me with a unique "day" only known to the Lord where there is no day or night but only light.

It just seems very inappropriate to compare this to the day's we are in now and then say "who knows what a real day is?!?"

Perhaps I was not clear in my statements about these verses. I do believe that this is in reference to the second coming as I said in my previous post, but I don't know your eschatological viewpoint, so maybe that is where we are miscommunicating. (?)

You seemed to imply that the references to neither day nor night, etc. refer to the new heaven and new earth, and I was simply saying that I believe it to be the cosmic events described in the Olivet Discourse and elsewhere. I believe that it is at this time Jesus returns to take up His church and to pour out His wrath on the rest of the world. I don't believe this to be a single day, but rather a period of time, and that is the only reason I brought The Day of The Lord up in the first place. You said that nowhere in Scripture is an ordinal used with the word 'yowm' when it didn't mean a literal day. I was just presenting an example of when it does, but you say it is invalid and inappropriate, yet I don't understand why. The fact is, the same words used in Genesis 1 are used to refer to the Day of The Lord, which is not a single 24 hour day.

As I said before, I am not trying to be arguementative. I say it is a valid point and you say it's not. I doubt we will change each other's minds, so maybe we should just drop it unless either of us has something new to add. No sense in saying the same things over and over, right?

Fair enough!

But, I did do a little research to see if the grass in Palastine was as bad as Florida and sure enough it is worse.

In Fausset's Bible Dictionary and Dictionary of Biblical Imagery there is commentary on the grass in Palastine pertaining to this exact verse in question. The commentary indicates that because of the hot dry climate grass will suddenly turn green at the slightest dew and without even a single rain drop.

Also it will wither by mid-afternoon because of the scorching sun. So it does not look rare at all, but really rather quite normal for the area. Florida grass is not so dramatic but these quick changes are not unusual there either.

I can appreciate you don't see this in Wisconsin.

But to use these points that this "just doesn't happen," or "it is extremely rare," and therefore a day can't mean a day seems to be forcing an interpretation on Scripture that just isn't there. Maybe it's just our lack of understanding of the area and climate that is the problem and not the common meaning of the word "day."

Of course this all get's back to the point of why would the Holy Spirit use the word "day" to mean a literal 24 hour day 513 times in Scripture the exact way it is used in Genesis 1 but not mean a 24 hour day in Genesis 1?

In my last post I did not say that it "just doesn't happen" or that "it is extremely rare" - well, maybe I implied it by saying that it's not the norm, and I can admit to being wrong. Yes, the whole world is not like the Midwest. I thought you made some good points. I was just presenting others. I can agree that you could be right, but I see no reason why it can't be taken more figuratively too. As someone who studies literature, perhaps I see imagery in words more often than others. I don't believe that it is good or bad, I just think that it does shape how I understand things.

As I said before, I don't believe this grass arguement is essential to our understanding of creation. Perhaps if you, or others are interested, we could present some other issues that deal with OEC and YEC. Or we can keep talking about grass.

 

[theseed]

This poll is open to Reformed/Calvinist believers only. Not that we don't value other opinions, but for the purpose of this poll we would like Reformed/Calvinist opinions only.

What does Calvinism have to do with the poll?

 

[theseed]

I voted no, because I am a theistic evolutionist.

Doesn't the notion of Adam comming from monkeys undo the orgin of Sin? What about God being made in the image of a monkey? How do you reconcile thiestic evolution with the fall of man?

 

[Bulldog]

Doesn't the notion of Adam comming from monkeys undo the orgin of Sin?

Not at all.

What about God being made in the image of a monkey?

What do you mean?

How do you reconcile thiestic evolution with the fall of man?

Things evolve. Man is fallen. How can't the fall be reconciled with evolution?

 

[Cal]

Cal, I apologize if I have come off arguementative or disrespectful in any way. That's not my intention at all. I believe that your views are valid, but I believe there are other considerations as well. I am not trying to say that you are wrong. My views on this matter are not set in stone.

Jazzbird, No I apologize. I must have come off to you as being upset or something. Nothing could be further from the truth. I did not see the least bit of you being argumentative or disrespectful in any way. You have been nothing but kind and very respectful and have demonstrated the highest level's of Christian humbleness and godliness in all your conversations.

I feel awful now because I must have come off as being upset or something.

Every comment I made in my last post was sincere without the slightest bit of sarcasm. I hate this medium sometimes because you can't look a person in the eye or hear voice inflections and as a result it can be very confusing as to someone's true intent.

I am ao sorry I have upset you.

Perhaps I was not clear in my statements about these verses. I do believe that this is in reference to the second coming as I said in my previous post, but I don't know your eschatological viewpoint, so maybe that is where we are miscommunicating. (?)

You seemed to imply that the references to neither day nor night, etc. refer to the new heaven and new earth, and I was simply saying that I believe it to be the cosmic events described in the Olivet Discourse and elsewhere. I believe that it is at this time Jesus returns to take up His church and to pour out His wrath on the rest of the world. I don't believe this to be a single day, but rather a period of time, and that is the only reason I brought The Day of The Lord up in the first place. You said that nowhere in Scripture is an ordinal used with the word 'yowm' when it didn't mean a literal day. I was just presenting an example of when it does, but you say it is invalid and inappropriate, yet I don't understand why. The fact is, the same words used in Genesis 1 are used to refer to the Day of The Lord, which is not a single 24 hour day.

No, you have been very clear in your statements, but now I see the miscommunication! You thought I said that, "nowhere in Scripture is an ordinary day used with the word 'yowm' when it didn't mean a literal day," and I didn't say that.

I said this:

"I think the Word of God states plainly that God created everything in six day’s by simply commanding it to come into existence. “Excluding Genesis 1, whenever the word day is used in the bible with a number (over 400 times) it always means an ordinary day—there are no exceptions.”



“Whenever the phrase ‘evening and morning’ is used outside of Genesis 1 without the word day in the bible (38 times) it always means an ordinary day—no exception. Whenever the words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’ are used individually with the word day in the bible (in fact 23 times each) outside of Genesis 1, the word day always means an ordinary day.”



“Whenever the word ‘night’ is used with the word day in the bible (52 times outside of Genesis 1) the word day always means an ordinary day. In other words, whenever the word day is used with a number, or with the words evening or morning, or with the word night, or whenever the phrase ‘evening and morning’ is used, outside of Genesis 1 in the bible the Hebrew word for day always means an ordinary day, or the phrase evening morning means an ordinary day.” Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/pages/oh20020208_104.asp


Therefore your example of the most unique day in the history of the world, where there is no night or day, as a description of how a day could not be a 24 hour literal day was puzzling to me. This is an obvious example of when day is used to mean something we have absolutely no idea of what it could mean, because as your verse say's "only the Lord knows it."

But this is not how day is used in Genesis 1.

In Genesis 1 day is used with a number attached and with a morning and evening reference. And in every single instance, which totals 513 additional times throughout Scripture, when day is referenced in this fashion it means a 24 hour literal day. It also references to a seven day week which we all still adhere to and a seventh day sabbath that was adhered to for thousands of years.

These days we all know and are very familar with.

Of course, as previously mentioned, when a "unique" day, as Scripture references that "is known only to the Lord," and has "neither night nor day" is used in Scripture, well that kind of day would have absolutely no parallel with the ordinary morning and evening days as we have known for thousands of years and as we know them today.

This verse would not be a good referenece to compare to ordinary days or to any reference of day in Scripture, except a day of the Second Coming, simply because it is a day no one has obviously seen before or knows anything about yet.

As I said before, I am not trying to be arguementative. I say it is a valid point and you say it's not. I doubt we will change each other's minds, so maybe we should just drop it unless either of us has something new to add. No sense in saying the same things over and over, right?

I agree, but I want to change my opinion if I'm wrong and these debates are so good for testing your beliefs to ensure they are firmly rooted in Scripture.

I think we are miscommunicating and it's only fair I understand exactly what you are saying so I don't misunderstand your point and miss what I should be learning and how I should change my beliefs, and of course, vice versa.

In my last post I did not say that it "just doesn't happen" or that "it is extremely rare" - well, maybe I implied it by saying that it's not the norm, and I can admit to being wrong. Yes, the whole world is not like the Midwest. I thought you made some good points. I was just presenting others. I can agree that you could be right, but I see no reason why it can't be taken more figuratively too. As someone who studies literature, perhaps I see imagery in words more often than others. I don't believe that it is good or bad, I just think that it does shape how I understand things.

Thank you again for your obvious demonstration of a glodly and humble attitude.

What I was referring to was you comments in your previous post of;

"Now, we know that the grass does not in fact grow in the morning and die at night, right?", which you later revised in your last post to say,

"This is not the norm."

Now we know that it does happen and it is normal in Israel. Therefore, your conclusion, based on this "never happening" and this "not being normal," is not correct. Therefore you now must agree that your Psalm 90 verse could be and probably is a 24 hour day.

As I said before, I don't believe this grass arguement is essential to our understanding of creation. Perhaps if you, or others are interested, we could present some other issues that deal with OEC and YEC. Or we can keep talking about grass.

It's entirely up to you, and I would love to continue discussing the bankruptcy of the evolution story because it needs to be openly put to shame for all the damage it is doing to the Word of God and to our society today.

But please remember Jazzbird, I didn't bring-up grass, or Daniel's visions that took him all morning and night to see, or the unique unknown day's of the Second Coming as a defense that the morning and evening creation day's don't mean 24 hour days.

It doesn't seem like a good idea to me to dwell on these defenses much longer either.

 

[Bulldog]

What does Calvinism have to do with the poll?

Nothing really. The poll just wants to see whta Calvinists think, as opposed to other groups.

 

[theseed]

Bulldog, did we evolve into sinless beings, and then fall into sin?

 

[Bulldog]

Yes.

What point are you trying to make?