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Creation vs TE and Salvation

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Pats

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I want to know what Creationists think about how or if the TEist view alters the plan of salvation from the way most Creationists understand it or teach it?

Thanks for your thoughts and views,
Pats :)
 

mark kennedy

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I scribbled this out last night as I was watching TV. I apologize in advance for the run on sentences and other problems with it. This is just to give you an idea of what the Scripture teach about creation and how it is related to Salvation.

In the beginning God created (Bara, out of nothing, creation attributed to God alone in Scripture).

God alone created, all things seen and unseen, in heaven and earth, out of nothing (Ex nihilo) but the Word of God. The Word of God is revealed as the Logos (John 1:1), the light that shown in the primordial darkness of creation and gives light to all men, became human flesh and dwelt among us. He died for our sins, was raised for our justification, taken into glory, seated at the right hand of the Father and is returning in power and glory, Selah.

By the Word of God the doors of the seas were shut, when it burst forth from the womb, made the clouds its garmet and thick clouds its swaddling band. (Job 38:8,9) By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made by things which are visible (Heb 11:3).

He made the earth, and created (bara) man upon it. (Is. 45:12). From the dust of the earth, not the apes, not the gibbons, not chordates, not symbionic primordial protoorganism that descended by means of natural selection by numerous slight successive modifications of preexisting forms. Adam is our single common ancestor, called the son of God in Lukes geneology indicating he had no human biological father. Through Adam sin entered the world and death through sin...For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:12,17)

He gave to Abraham when he was 100 years old a son, by Sarah who was 99 (Gen 17:18). He made Joseph father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler throughout all the land of Egypt (Gen 45:8). Delivered Israel from the hand of Egypt to a good land flowing with milk and honey. (Ex 3:8) Sent fire from before the Lord and consumed the Levitical sacrifices. (Lev 9:24). Made Danial ruler over the whole providence of Babylon, and chief administrator over all the wise men of babylon (Dan 2:48).

In Him was light and that like was the light of men, and the light shown in the darkness and the darkness did not understand, the darkness did not over come him, the darkness did not comprehend. (see John 1) For Judgment He came into this world that those who are born blind see and those whe see may be made blind. (Jn 9:39). What may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead. So they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ but were eyewittnesses of His magesty. And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, whcih you do well to head as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; Knowing this first, the no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prohecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:20,21)​

I am an evangelical, fundamentalist, Bible believing, born again young earth creationist. Christ alone, faith alone and Scripture alone are not creeds, mantras or private interprutations, they are gospel. They are foundational axioms of a self existing, primary first quality premise of God's revelation of the person and work of Christ. His work from the creation of the world, throughout history, in our midsts, untill the redemption of the purchase price and the revelation of the Lamb of God who loved us and washed us from our sins.

When told that my theology influences by understanding of natural science I simply respond, of course it does, why would'nt it? The Scriptures are clear and natural science has not built the microscope that can see our origins. It concens me that theistic evolution neglects such important doctrinal and theological issues. I think their abherance to modern science conflicts with the clear teaching of Scripture but nontheless is not, in and of itself a bar to fellowship. What is seen was made from that which is invisible, but He (The Word of God incarnate) was revealed in the person and work of Christ. The one they call Jesus.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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vossler

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mark kennedy said:
I am an evangelical, fundamentalist, Bible believing, born again young earth creationist. Christ alone, faith alone and Scripture alone are not creeds, mantras or private interpretations, they are gospel. They are foundational axioms of a self existing, primary first quality premise of God's revelation of the person and work of Christ. His work from the creation of the world, throughout history, in our midsts, untill the redemption of the purchase price and the revelation of the Lamb of God who loved us and washed us from our sins.

When told that my theology influences by understanding of natural science I simply respond, of course it does, why wouldn't it? The Scriptures are clear and natural science has not built the microscope that can see our origins. It concerns me that theistic evolution neglects such important doctrinal and theological issues. I think their adherance to modern science conflicts with the clear teaching of Scripture but nonetheless is not, in and of itself a bar to fellowship. What is seen was made from that which is invisible, but He (The Word of God incarnate) was revealed in the person and work of Christ. The one they call Jesus.
What he said! :preach: :D

Isn't it nice when we can agree! :cool:
 
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LoG

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Pats said:
I want to know what Creationists think about how or if the TEist view alters the plan of salvation from the way most Creationists understand it or teach it?

Thanks for your thoughts and views,
Pats :)

The plan of salvation doesn't change because it is from God. It doesn't change whether one is a fundamentalist or an atheist.

However...the degree of faith one has in that plan is dependent on how truthful the scriptures are deemed to be in relating its reality. The more one doubts the reality of parts of the Word, the less power one will be able to garner through it from the Spirit. If Genesis isn't factual then it doesn't take much of a stretch to question Revelations and from there one will start to wonder how accurate the gospel accounts really are since Jesus refers to parts of Genesis. What did He mean then with " as in the days of Noah"? Did He really say that, if there was no Noah or flood?

Jesus's words are relevant here I think:

Mat 16:11 How is it that you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? Guard yourselves from the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees!"
 
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Soldat_fur_Christ

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I am a full bible-believing Christian.

I believe that if one cannot accept Genesis, then everything can be made to doubt. If you don't believe Genesis, where do you end? I don't want to Judge them, but Jesus as mentioned in prior posts talks about Creation, and Noah as fact. Should we not believe the word of our savior? Our God!!?? I'm not sure where it's at, I believe in Job, but as the created, we aren't supposed to question the Creator. Everything has a reason, even if we don't understand. Death never entered the world until sin came, so that refutes evolution right there. Sure we have all sorts of "evidence" for evolution, but should we believe it, no.... Satan, and all of his evil in the world want you to doubt God.

When we doubt, we don't believe, and when we don't believe, we goto Hell. Satan in all of his power will use that, that's why there is so many Atheists. Everyone sees everything in a "worldly" view without miracles. But God is good, he's all knowing, he is power, he's logic!!! He created everything, why doubt him? Why doubt the B ible? He used men to write it down, sure... But I'm sure he wouldn't let any errors go through it. Everything that God wants is in our current Bible, nothing more, nothing less. Also, why would he lie? When he was revealing what to write through Moses, if we evolved, why wouldn't he just tell him to write that? Why would Moses go against God? It just doesn't make logical sense!!!!!

Can I get an AMEN!!!
 
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Pats

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Soldat_fur_Christ, I see some truth and some areas of your post where I can agree.

However:

Soldat_fur_Christ said:
I believe that if one cannot accept Genesis, then everything can be made to doubt.
.......

When we doubt, we don't believe, and when we don't believe, we goto Hell.

Can I get an AMEN!!!

I can't give you an AMEN on that.

You make it sound like we can go to hell for having doubts. It's natural to have doubts. Jesus forgives us.

Not only that, but it seems you're trying to say something else here between the lines without backing it up with scripture, and I can't say that I'd agree with it. But thanks for your thoughts.

Thanks a lot, Mark, too. I'm trying to really consider your words before make a response. :)

I appreciate all of the Scriptural insights on this sensative issue.
 
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jabechler

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Soldat_fur_Christ said:
I am a full bible-believing Christian.

I believe that if one cannot accept Genesis, then everything can be made to doubt. If you don't believe Genesis, where do you end? I don't want to Judge them, but Jesus as mentioned in prior posts talks about Creation, and Noah as fact. Should we not believe the word of our savior? Our God!!?? I'm not sure where it's at, I believe in Job, but as the created, we aren't supposed to question the Creator. Everything has a reason, even if we don't understand. Death never entered the world until sin came, so that refutes evolution right there. Sure we have all sorts of "evidence" for evolution, but should we believe it, no.... Satan, and all of his evil in the world want you to doubt God.

When we doubt, we don't believe, and when we don't believe, we goto Hell. Satan in all of his power will use that, that's why there is so many Atheists. Everyone sees everything in a "worldly" view without miracles. But God is good, he's all knowing, he is power, he's logic!!! He created everything, why doubt him? Why doubt the B ible? He used men to write it down, sure... But I'm sure he wouldn't let any errors go through it. Everything that God wants is in our current Bible, nothing more, nothing less. Also, why would he lie? When he was revealing what to write through Moses, if we evolved, why wouldn't he just tell him to write that? Why would Moses go against God? It just doesn't make logical sense!!!!!

Can I get an AMEN!!!
AMEN AMEN AMEN
 
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jabechler

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Pats said:
Soldat_fur_Christ, I see some truth and some areas of your post where I can agree.

However:



I can't give you an AMEN on that.

You make it sound like we can go to hell for having doubts. It's natural to have doubts. Jesus forgives us.

Not only that, but it seems you're trying to say something else here between the lines without backing it up with scripture, and I can't say that I'd agree with it. But thanks for your thoughts.

Thanks a lot, Mark, too. I'm trying to really consider your words before make a response. :)

I appreciate all of the Scriptural insights on this sensative issue.
jAMES 2:19 " Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." the first sin was not Eve eating the fruit but believing the doubt the serpent gave her about God. Genesis 3:4 " And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: "
 
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sjdennis

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I think Mark, Lion for God and Soldat_fur_Christ have summed up the issue pretty well. Believing evolution as well as the New Testament will not of itself prevent salvation, but it is a big lever that the Devil can use to wedge in more and more doubts until the Christian gives up on Jesus as well. Once Evolution is accepted in place of God's creation, it is a small step further to reject God altogether.
 
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Pats

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sjdennis said:
I think Mark, Lion for God and Soldat_fur_Christ have summed up the issue pretty well. Believing evolution as well as the New Testament will not of itself prevent salvation, but it is a big lever that the Devil can use to wedge in more and more doubts until the Christian gives up on Jesus as well. Once Evolution is accepted in place of God's creation, it is a small step further to reject God altogether.

I have considered this. But I am more wondering, from a Biblical perspective, how the TE view effects scripture as compared with the Creationist view. For instance, Creationists take the geneoligies literally, linking Jesus Christ as an ancestor of Adam and the TEs do not take that literally.

How does this, and maybe other differences, effect the body of scripture itself. I'd like to hear from anyone with thoughts on it.

Thank you.
 
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Pats

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jabechler said:
jAMES 2:19 " Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." the first sin was not Eve eating the fruit but believing the doubt the serpent gave her about God. Genesis 3:4 " And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: "

Interesting. I was taught the first sin was when Adam ate the fruit, because he knew that it was wrong. Eve had been completely fooled by the serpant and was unaware of her error.

I think we are stronger in our faith if we do not have doubts, if we are sure of what we believe. However, I am not convinced that doubt is sin. Perhaps it is sin to doubt what we have heard directly from the mouth of God or Christ, but few of us have had that experience today.

I feel, I cannot be sure of my beliefs taking them all for granted blindly. I need to examine them, from a Biblical standpoint first and then perhaps with other evidences as well. However, the Scriptural foundation for my spiritual beliefs is primary to me. :)
 
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chaoschristian

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Pats said:
I have considered this. But I am more wondering, from a Biblical perspective, how the TE view effects scripture as compared with the Creationist view. For instance, Creationists take the geneoligies literally, linking Jesus Christ as an ancestor of Adam and the TEs do not take that literally.

How does this, and maybe other differences, effect the body of scripture itself. I'd like to hear from anyone with thoughts on it.

Thank you.

:wave: Welcome back Pats. Good to see you around again.

Not to start a debate, because after this I'm butting out, but please reconsider this line:

Creationists take the geneoligies literally, linking Jesus Christ as an ancestor of Adam and the TEs do not take that literally.

TEs are not monolithic in their views. There are many TEs who accept a literal Adam, and for whom the geneologies are not an issue. However, there are some TEs who do not accept a literal Adam, and for whom the geneologies might be an issue.
 
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Pats

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chaoschristian said:
:wave: Welcome back Pats. Good to see you around again.

Thanks. It's good to be back. My time is limited, but I do so enjoy coming around here a bit and it's good to see you too.

TEs are not monolithic in their views. There are many TEs who accept a literal Adam, and for whom the geneologies are not an issue. However, there are some TEs who do not accept a literal Adam, and for whom the geneologies might be an issue.

How true that is. Thank you for pointing that out. I'm just rusty from taking some time away, lol.
 
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Chief117

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My major problem with TEs revolves around the understanding of "sin."

To me, if you don't grasp sin properly then you don't fully understand Christ's atoning sacrifice for it. That is a serious salvational issue.

The Bible says that Adam brought death into the world, through sin. And Jesus took away sin, by becoming a blood sacrifice for it. Therefore, any evolutionist that denies the literal Adam is, to me, also denying Christ's sacrifice (how can he be the 2nd Adam if there wasn't a first, as someone in another thread put it).

Even if a TE believed in a literal Adam, his belief in death before sin significantly reduces the power of salvation. You see, God said in Genesis that there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood (and thus the first death in the world was to clothe Adam and Eve).

If blood were shed before that first act of sin then it loses a lot of power. If that loses power, so does the necessity of Christ to shed His precious blood for us.

Maybe I could say it better, but that is basically my position.
 
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TorchDude

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When one believes mankind existed for eons BEFORE sin, they are contradicting themselves. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest their beliefs, they take the words of evolutionists' theories and try to fit them into the Bible.
There was no death before sin, so how could natural selection possibly occour before death could weed out the sick to preserve the strong?

AMEN to all of my young earth Christian brothers and sisters!
 
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