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Creation: Six Days or not?
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Scholar in training
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There is a forum for debate on origins in the CO section of the site too.Breetai said:
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dcyates
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In order to most accurately understand the intent the writings of any author we need to take into account the literary genre in which they were written. We thus naturally read poetry differently than we do the front page of the newspaper.
Many of the creation stories of ancient Near Eastern (ANE) mythology consist of a creating deity (or deities) battling against a god (but more usually a goddess) of chaos, which usually takes the form of a body of water. In biblical studies this has come to be referred to as the chaoskampf motif, and is one which we also find in Scripture. It's alluded to in Genesis 1.1-2, where we are informed that "At the beginning," when God was creating the cosmos, "the earth was tohu va-vohu," or "wild and waste" (a rendering which attempts to capture the intent of the linguistic sound of the phrase; vohu being a nonce term deliberately coined to rhyme with tohu), but "formless and empty" probably communicates a more accurate English translation. The term "formless" is meant to communicate the lack of order, or chaos. (Incidentally, the term "empty" is intended to communicate the lack of life, that there existed no living things.) This compound phrase appears again in Jeremiah's prophetic vision of the return of the primal chaos (Jer 4.23-27; note also the reference to there being "no light," in other words, darkness), thus leaving little doubt that the phrase designates the initial chaotic state of the earth.
The chaoskampf motif is then further developed as we are told that there was also a "darkness over the deep." Darkness throughout the Bible is often a symbol of evil, misfortune, death, and oblivion. Here it seems not to be simply an absence of light but a distinct entity (cf. Isaiah 45.7). As well, tehom, "the deep" is the cosmic abbyssal water that enveloped the earth. It is instructive that tehom is treated as a Hebrew proper name. Although not feminine in grammatical form, it is often employed with a feminine verb or adjective, and is at times personified. For example, in Genesis 49.25 and Deuteronomy 33.13 it "couches below," and in Habakkuk 3.10 "Loud roars the deep" in panic at the wrathful approach of God. Lastly, tehom appears in Isaiah 51.9-10 in a mythic context. All this suggests that tehom may once have been the name of a mythical being much like the Mesopotamian 'Tiamat', the female dragonesque personification of the primordial salt-water ocean, representing the agressive forces of primitive chaos that contended against Marduk, the Babylonian god of creativity. After Tiamat's defeat, Marduk divides her corpse, effectively dividing waters from waters; in this case, Tiamat is split into salt water and fresh water. (Although it should be noted that here in Genesis, tehom is thoroughly demythologized and likely deliberately so, for the creation account of Genesis is not really meant to supply us with a historical--much less scientific--account of what happened, but rather to combat the prevalent pagan beliefs of the time.) Additionally, we are told that "the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." The Hebrew word for 'spirit', ruach, also means 'wind' or 'breath'.
Some may see the ostensible connection between the Mesopotamian creation myth and that of Genesis as somewhat tenuous, but allow us to turn to and examine the creation myths of that other empire, within which Israel spent four centuries in exile: Egypt. It will be noticed that in Isaiah 51.9-10 the watery chaos-monster that God battles and defeats is referred to as Rahab and that there are distinct allusions to the exodus from Egypt. In other texts, such as Isaiah 30.7 (something I just noticed and would have to explore further is the phrase here translated "vain and empty" [NASB; "worthless and empty" NRSV] which is interesting in that tohu va-vohu could also be rendered this way), along with Psalm 89.9-10 and Job 26.12-13, we again find references to God's mastery over the chaotic waters in connection with his defeat of Egypt (Egypt also being, in some regard, synonymous with 'Rahab').
Unlike the Mesopotamians who believed in numerous creator gods, the Egyptians held only one deity responsible for the universe, which they referred to as "heaven and earth." The act of creation, on the stela of Ptah and Sekhmet, is accomplished via lordly speech where Ptah's tongue commands what his mind thinks--"One says in his mind (heart) 'Behold, may they come into being'"--with no mention of any preexistent material being used (cf. Ps. 33.6). Ptah not only creates everything, but he also constitutes the primeval waters that begat the lesser god Atum. This idea of creation by decree is also found in a Coffin text, where life is created "according to the word of Nun in Nu..." and Atum creates animal life through his command. One notes that Genesis 1 is thoroughly permeated with the idea of YHWH speaking creation into being.
Creation emerges from the deep, the darkness, the formlessness and emptiness, and the wind. The Coffin texts mention the Hermopolitan Ogdoad (also known as the Octead, see below) who are eight primordial beings--four cosmic forces and their consorts with the four males being toads and the four females being snakes--who inhabited the primeval slime from which the rest of creation proceeds. Nun is the formless deep, Keku is darkness, Amun is breath (wind), and Hehu is some kind of illimitable chaos. These arise from Ptah, and out of them emerges the sun. Interestingly, the biblical record begins with God and then speaks of a formlessness and emptiness, a deep, a darkness, and a hovering wind.
In terms of the order of creation, the god Re first creates light out of darkness, and only after this the sun-god. This resembles Gen 1 where God creates light prior to his creation of the sun. Separation is also a key element with Ptah separating earth and sky, and Atum separating Geb (earth-god) from Nut (sky-goddess). In the Hermopolitan story the primordial hills--later symbolized by the pyramids--become the firmament which divides the upper from the lower waters. Given that the biblical idea of the "firmament" has connotations of beaten metal, it is noteworthy that another Egyptian tradition describes the resurrected king as taking possession of the sky and then splitting or separating its metal.
Suffice to say, there are many more parallels between the biblical and Egyptian creation stories and I could go on and on like this. In each of the biblical texts cited above we not only find God battling a watery chaos-monster, but this is mentioned while at the same time recalling Israel's Exodus experience as well. Why? Because Israel had witnessed YHWH uncreate Egypt, reverting the greatest, most orderly empire up to that time into a state of chaos via the ten plagues, and thus effectively overturning the rule of Pharoah, who was supposed to be the son of Amon-Re. And then at the Reed Sea (Exod 14.19-31) they had witnessed YHWH cause light to shine in the darkness and a divine wind to drive back the deep of the Yam-Suph (a sea that the Egyptians also regarded as the being at the end of the world and the abode of Apophis the chaos serpent), so that the waters are separated so as to reveal dry land.
My overall point is that I think it is primarily to Egyptian--and to a lesser extent, Babylonian--creation myths, as well as themes surrounding the Exodus, that we need to look to in order to most accurately understand Genesis 1&2.
Many of the creation stories of ancient Near Eastern (ANE) mythology consist of a creating deity (or deities) battling against a god (but more usually a goddess) of chaos, which usually takes the form of a body of water. In biblical studies this has come to be referred to as the chaoskampf motif, and is one which we also find in Scripture. It's alluded to in Genesis 1.1-2, where we are informed that "At the beginning," when God was creating the cosmos, "the earth was tohu va-vohu," or "wild and waste" (a rendering which attempts to capture the intent of the linguistic sound of the phrase; vohu being a nonce term deliberately coined to rhyme with tohu), but "formless and empty" probably communicates a more accurate English translation. The term "formless" is meant to communicate the lack of order, or chaos. (Incidentally, the term "empty" is intended to communicate the lack of life, that there existed no living things.) This compound phrase appears again in Jeremiah's prophetic vision of the return of the primal chaos (Jer 4.23-27; note also the reference to there being "no light," in other words, darkness), thus leaving little doubt that the phrase designates the initial chaotic state of the earth.
The chaoskampf motif is then further developed as we are told that there was also a "darkness over the deep." Darkness throughout the Bible is often a symbol of evil, misfortune, death, and oblivion. Here it seems not to be simply an absence of light but a distinct entity (cf. Isaiah 45.7). As well, tehom, "the deep" is the cosmic abbyssal water that enveloped the earth. It is instructive that tehom is treated as a Hebrew proper name. Although not feminine in grammatical form, it is often employed with a feminine verb or adjective, and is at times personified. For example, in Genesis 49.25 and Deuteronomy 33.13 it "couches below," and in Habakkuk 3.10 "Loud roars the deep" in panic at the wrathful approach of God. Lastly, tehom appears in Isaiah 51.9-10 in a mythic context. All this suggests that tehom may once have been the name of a mythical being much like the Mesopotamian 'Tiamat', the female dragonesque personification of the primordial salt-water ocean, representing the agressive forces of primitive chaos that contended against Marduk, the Babylonian god of creativity. After Tiamat's defeat, Marduk divides her corpse, effectively dividing waters from waters; in this case, Tiamat is split into salt water and fresh water. (Although it should be noted that here in Genesis, tehom is thoroughly demythologized and likely deliberately so, for the creation account of Genesis is not really meant to supply us with a historical--much less scientific--account of what happened, but rather to combat the prevalent pagan beliefs of the time.) Additionally, we are told that "the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." The Hebrew word for 'spirit', ruach, also means 'wind' or 'breath'.
Some may see the ostensible connection between the Mesopotamian creation myth and that of Genesis as somewhat tenuous, but allow us to turn to and examine the creation myths of that other empire, within which Israel spent four centuries in exile: Egypt. It will be noticed that in Isaiah 51.9-10 the watery chaos-monster that God battles and defeats is referred to as Rahab and that there are distinct allusions to the exodus from Egypt. In other texts, such as Isaiah 30.7 (something I just noticed and would have to explore further is the phrase here translated "vain and empty" [NASB; "worthless and empty" NRSV] which is interesting in that tohu va-vohu could also be rendered this way), along with Psalm 89.9-10 and Job 26.12-13, we again find references to God's mastery over the chaotic waters in connection with his defeat of Egypt (Egypt also being, in some regard, synonymous with 'Rahab').
Unlike the Mesopotamians who believed in numerous creator gods, the Egyptians held only one deity responsible for the universe, which they referred to as "heaven and earth." The act of creation, on the stela of Ptah and Sekhmet, is accomplished via lordly speech where Ptah's tongue commands what his mind thinks--"One says in his mind (heart) 'Behold, may they come into being'"--with no mention of any preexistent material being used (cf. Ps. 33.6). Ptah not only creates everything, but he also constitutes the primeval waters that begat the lesser god Atum. This idea of creation by decree is also found in a Coffin text, where life is created "according to the word of Nun in Nu..." and Atum creates animal life through his command. One notes that Genesis 1 is thoroughly permeated with the idea of YHWH speaking creation into being.
Creation emerges from the deep, the darkness, the formlessness and emptiness, and the wind. The Coffin texts mention the Hermopolitan Ogdoad (also known as the Octead, see below) who are eight primordial beings--four cosmic forces and their consorts with the four males being toads and the four females being snakes--who inhabited the primeval slime from which the rest of creation proceeds. Nun is the formless deep, Keku is darkness, Amun is breath (wind), and Hehu is some kind of illimitable chaos. These arise from Ptah, and out of them emerges the sun. Interestingly, the biblical record begins with God and then speaks of a formlessness and emptiness, a deep, a darkness, and a hovering wind.
In terms of the order of creation, the god Re first creates light out of darkness, and only after this the sun-god. This resembles Gen 1 where God creates light prior to his creation of the sun. Separation is also a key element with Ptah separating earth and sky, and Atum separating Geb (earth-god) from Nut (sky-goddess). In the Hermopolitan story the primordial hills--later symbolized by the pyramids--become the firmament which divides the upper from the lower waters. Given that the biblical idea of the "firmament" has connotations of beaten metal, it is noteworthy that another Egyptian tradition describes the resurrected king as taking possession of the sky and then splitting or separating its metal.
Suffice to say, there are many more parallels between the biblical and Egyptian creation stories and I could go on and on like this. In each of the biblical texts cited above we not only find God battling a watery chaos-monster, but this is mentioned while at the same time recalling Israel's Exodus experience as well. Why? Because Israel had witnessed YHWH uncreate Egypt, reverting the greatest, most orderly empire up to that time into a state of chaos via the ten plagues, and thus effectively overturning the rule of Pharoah, who was supposed to be the son of Amon-Re. And then at the Reed Sea (Exod 14.19-31) they had witnessed YHWH cause light to shine in the darkness and a divine wind to drive back the deep of the Yam-Suph (a sea that the Egyptians also regarded as the being at the end of the world and the abode of Apophis the chaos serpent), so that the waters are separated so as to reveal dry land.
My overall point is that I think it is primarily to Egyptian--and to a lesser extent, Babylonian--creation myths, as well as themes surrounding the Exodus, that we need to look to in order to most accurately understand Genesis 1&2.
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in2Nas
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No, I don't think it took six days literally. I think it's a metaphor for really happened to help us understand the process in which God created the universe. It's far easier to understand it this way than anything else.
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Mary_Magdalene
AKA..Godschosengirl
I believe You God!!! 
------------------------
I have a harder time believing that a Holy God, creator of the heavens and earth, would send His Son to die on a cross for our filthy sins to allow us little humans to spend eternity with Him.
THAT, should be what is unbelievably amazing-not creation. Creation wasn't a big job for Him folks.....piece of cake for my God!
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I have a harder time believing that a Holy God, creator of the heavens and earth, would send His Son to die on a cross for our filthy sins to allow us little humans to spend eternity with Him.
THAT, should be what is unbelievably amazing-not creation. Creation wasn't a big job for Him folks.....piece of cake for my God!
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Mary_Magdalene
AKA..Godschosengirl
Lynn73 said:
God would indeed by a "sadistic retard" if he used evolution to do everything. Evolution is sloppy, brings death, and takes gazillions of years. My God got it right the first time and He did it just as He said in Genesis. In six days and He rested on the seventh. If people don't know what evening and morning mean, they have a problem.
Preach it Lynn!!!
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KEPLER said:Ermmm,... regardless of whether or not the waters "above" the firmament are still there, or they dispersed in Noah's flood...there is no record in Scripture of God ever taking this "firmament" away....the stars, sun and moon are still set in it...which means, of course, that they are all (every last one of them, according to a "literal" reading of Scripture) equidistant from the earth.
Seems to me (in very recent memory) that some guy from Texas lost a popluar election, but still won the race....
Cheers,
Eric
PS...BTW, up until you posted that about losing the poll, I had not voted. Neither one of the choices is satisfactory to me. But when you said that, well, I just had to look, now didn't I? Since you presumed to think I had voted "no", I obliged you. I actually do think God created the world in 6 days. But I also think that I am compelled by the text of Genesis 1 & 2, to say those days are not chronoligical days, but typological days.
The other reason I did not like the choices is that all YECers seem to think that if someone doesn't believe in Young Earth Creationism, that they must necessarily believe in evolution. Our friend Lynn73 (among many others) makes this very illogical leap. But I am neither a Young Earth Creationist, nor a theisic evolutionist. I am also not technically an Old-Earth Creationist.
Everybody says that but you do realize the stop counting the popular vote in a state when it is statistically impossible for the other candiate to win. They don't even count the mail in vote at all unless there is a staistical chance that the vote will change the out come for the apparent loser. Bush won the most states so he should have had more uncounted votes than Kerry. Sure Kerry may have had a very slight edge on the counted popular vote but he most likely did not win the true vote if all the mail in etc were really counted. Because Bush did the majority of the states.
At least here we are counting ALL the votes
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servant4ever
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How about Option C: It doesn't matter because God created. We weren't there so we will never know.
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KEPLER
Crux sola est nostra theologia
ThreeAM said:Everybody says that but you do realize the stop counting the popular vote in a state when it is statistically impossible for the other candiate to win. They don't even count the mail in vote at all unless there is a staistical chance that the vote will change the out come for the apparent loser. Bush won the most states so he should have had more uncounted votes than Kerry. Sure Kerry may have had a very slight edge on the counted popular vote but he most likely did not win the true vote if all the mail in etc were really counted. Because Bush did the majority of the states.
At least here we are counting ALL the votes
Actually I was referring to Bush v. Gore. Goremost definitely won the popular vote in that election. (Mind you, I'm not saying Gore should have been President on account of that; Bush won Florida: period. All the newspapers that went back and counted admitted it.) While you are correct about not all of the popular vote being counted, you have to account for size of states. Just becasue Bush won more states does not mathematically mean he would get the popular vote. And remember, you have to assume to "uncounted vote" factor for the democrats, too...e.g., California, where the uncounted surplus (mail-in ballots, etc) would have dwarfed the combined total for about 20-25 states.
"Ah'm jist sayin'...Ah shoood bu-ee the Praysuhdayint raht now." -Al Gore, as parodied on SNL a couple of Saturdays ago....
K
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KEPLER said:Actually I was referring to Bush v. Gore. Goremost definitely won the popular vote in that election. (Mind you, I'm not saying Gore should have been President on account of that; Bush won Florida: period. All the newspapers that went back and counted admitted it.) While you are correct about not all of the popular vote being counted, you have to account for size of states. Just becasue Bush won more states does not mathematically mean he would get the popular vote. And remember, you have to assume to "uncounted vote" factor for the democrats, too...e.g., California, where the uncounted surplus (mail-in ballots, etc) would have dwarfed the combined total for about 20-25 states.
"Ah'm jist sayin'...Ah shoood bu-ee the Praysuhdayint raht now." -Al Gore, as parodied on SNL a couple of Saturdays ago....
K
Well in Florida you must remember that it was annouced by all of the TV stations that Gore had already won Florida before the poles closed in the panhandle of Florida where the military bases are located and where the majority of the people are Rep. [Miami Dems.> Reps. and Pensacola Reps > Dems] they actually saw people turn around and leave the polling lines after the anouncement was made. I doubt florida would have been as close if they would have not announced victory to Gore before the polls closed.
All the hanging chad stuff would have prrobably not been necessary. Again the majority of the states were won by Bush and the majority of the states did not count ALL of the popular votes. IF ALL the popular votes were not counted you cannot correctly say Gore won the popular vote because no one really knows who won the popular vote because all the popular votes were not counted.. It is that simple. And you are right I mistakenly said Kerry when I should have said Gore.
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KEPLER
Crux sola est nostra theologia
ThreeAM said:Well in Florida you must remember that it was annouced by all of the TV stations that Gore had already won Florida before the poles closed in the panhandle of Florida where the military bases are located and where the majority of the people are Rep. [Miami Dems.> Reps. and Pensacola Reps > Dems] they actually saw people turn around and leave the polling lines after the anouncement was made. I doubt florida would have been as close if they would have not announced victory to Gore before the polls closed.
Well, you're definitely correct about the anouncement of FL. I'm of the opinion that news services should be forbidden from announcing the results of ANY states until ALL the polls in the greater 48 states have closed. But then there's that pesky First Amendment....
As for the rest...I guess we'll never really know, will we?
K
PS -- is it just methat'shaving a problem wen I click "submit"? The msg uploads, but I never get switched back to the thread screen...I have to click "Favs"...?
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