creation of angels?

[wobbly]

Just curious, in the young earth view,

when was Satan and the angels created?

when did Satan get thrown out of heaven?

Martin

 

[Chi_Cygni]

2nd August 3904 BCE. About 2:45 GMT.

 

[wobbly]

gee you mean he got thrown out as soon as he was created?

 

[mhess13]

Genesis 2:1 (KJV)
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Exodus 20:11 (KJV)
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


From those verses we can see that all was created in the 6 days of creation. The host of heaven which includes angels was part of the creation

 

[wobbly]

I was hoping to find out what was thought about
which day they were made on,
when they rebelled and
when Satan was thrown out of heaven.

thanks
Martin

 

[mhess13]

I was hoping to find out what was thought about
which day they were made on,
when they rebelled and
when Satan was thrown out of heaven.

thanks
Martin

Unfortunatly the Bible is silent on all that.
The hated www.theyoungearth.com has a page with Kent Hovind's answer to when Satanmay have fell
http://www.theyoungearth.com/ayoungearth/id26.html

 

[Rae_Psyche]

For God a day is a thousand years and a day is like a thousand years. 2 Peter 3:8 (translated from spanish) So Creation might not have been in six days literally. It probably took thousands of years but to God that was only about 7 days.


So when exactly everything happens, no one know but God Himself.

 

[Ave Maria]

For God a day is a thousand years and a day is like a thousand years. 2 Peter 3:8 (translated from spanish) So Creation might not have been in six days literally. It probably took thousands of years but to God that was only about 7 days.


So when exactly everything happens, no one know but God Himself.

Then how come after each day of creation described in the Bible does it say and the evening and the morning were one day? I'm not sure if that's the exact way it says it but it does mention evening and morning as in it is trying to explicitly tell us that it was a 24 hour day.

 

[Rae_Psyche]

Then how come after each day of creation described in the Bible does it say and the evening and the morning were one day? I'm not sure if that's the exact way it says it but it does mention evening and morning as in it is trying to explicitly tell us that it was a 24 hour day.

Genesis was written by a man, and he writes it for us to understand. Yes, it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. But God has no time, so how can Moses explain what was happening in the Creation to us? God had to let Moses see it in a way he could understand it, if not how else was he going to write it? Maybe MOses saw some kind of fast forwarding, it sounds stupid but who knows? We are only human, and God is all powerful, we dont understand more than half of the things He does.

 

[horuhe00]

Then how come after each day of creation described in the Bible does it say and the evening and the morning were one day? I'm not sure if that's the exact way it says it but it does mention evening and morning as in it is trying to explicitly tell us that it was a 24 hour day.

It was said that way so that us humans would make the 7th day of the week, the day of rest. I don't think God made everything in 7 days. In fact, I don't think God needs to rest.

 

[Ron21647]

Genesis 2:1 (KJV)
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Exodus 20:11 (KJV)
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


From those verses we can see that all was created in the 6 days of creation. The host of heaven which includes angels was part of the creation

Neither of these passages refer to the Heaven which is the place where God and the angels are, and where we go to be with God when we die. They refer to the visible universe. sun, moon, planets, stars, and so on.

Ron

 

[Ron21647]

Just curious, in the young earth view,

when was Satan and the angels created?

when did Satan get thrown out of heaven?

Martin

I would like a definitive answer on when Satan was cast out. I'm not sure the passage that refers to that isn't a prophecy, and it hasn't happened yet. After all, Satan was there hanging out in Heaven in the opening chapters of Job.

As for your first two points, I believe Satan and the angels were in existence with God in Heaven before the creation of our physical universe.

Ron

 

[mhess13]

I would like a definitive answer on when Satan was cast out. I'm not sure the passage that refers to that isn't a prophecy, and it hasn't happened yet. After all, Satan was there hanging out in Heaven in the opening chapters of Job.

As for your first two points, I believe Satan and the angels were in existence with God in Heaven before the creation of our physical universe.

Ron

Ron,
For once I agree with you. I don't believe satan was cast out of heaven yet. I believe Satan won't be cast out of heaven Until the great tribulation.
When I refer to satan's fall, i'm talking about his rebellion against God. This isn't the same as being forceibly cast out of heaven as we see in Rev 12(i believe it's Rev12...)

I disagree as to when angels were created. Notice the phrase "the host of heaven". When you se this in scripture it always (to the best of my knowledge) refers to the angelic host. So angels had to have been created during the 1st 6 LITERAL 24 hour days.

 

[Ron21647]

Ron,
For once I agree with you. I don't believe satan was cast out of heaven yet. I believe Satan won't be cast out of heaven Until the great tribulation.
When I refer to satan's fall, i'm talking about his rebellion against God. This isn't the same as being forceibly cast out of heaven as we see in Rev 12(i believe it's Rev12...)

I disagree as to when angels were created. Notice the phrase "the host of heaven". When you se this in scripture it always (to the best of my knowledge) refers to the angelic host. So angels had to have been created during the 1st 6 LITERAL 24 hour days.

you know, it never occurred to me that those could be two different events. but it makes a lot of sense.

as to the part about the angels, you have a point. However, it does not mntion them specifically in the first chpaters of Genesis. although we know they were there to guard the Garden of Eden.

I have no idea where this is, but I will look. I was sure there is a scripture saying the angels watched the creation happen and marvelled at it.

you know, if we are agreeing on something, this topic must be in the wrong forum.


Ron

 

[mhess13]

you know, it never occurred to me that those could be two different events. but it makes a lot of sense.

as to the part about the angels, you have a point. However, it does not mntion them specifically in the first chpaters of Genesis. although we know they were there to guard the Garden of Eden.

I have no idea where this is, but I will look. I was sure there is a scripture saying the angels watched the creation happen and marvelled at it.

you know, if we are agreeing on something, this topic must be in the wrong forum.


Ron

I think the scripture that you mean about angels watching the creation is in Job38, maybe around verse 4-8 (i think, don't have my Bible out at the moment). But I believe it only says that they rejoiced at the laying of the foundation of the earth. God didn't bring about dry land until day3. That, I believe is the foundations of the earth being laid. So the angels could have been created on day 1 or 2 and watched God bring about the dry land and marvel at His power and rejoice!
I'm not dogmatic on any of this because there simply isn't enough info to go on. But it's kinda fun to speculate.

But at any rate, I think Satan being cast from heaven HAS TO be a separate future event. He is called the prince of the power of the air and we war against the powers of darkness in the heavenlies. He has access to the throne room (apparently) because he is the accusser of the bretheren.
But he will be cast down on that joyous day, and will be filled with wrath because he knows his time is short...

 

[lucaspa]

Genesis was written by a man, and he writes it for us to understand. Yes, it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. But God has no time, so how can Moses explain what was happening in the Creation to us? God had to let Moses see it in a way he could understand it, if not how else was he going to write it? Maybe MOses saw some kind of fast forwarding, it sounds stupid but who knows? We are only human, and God is all powerful, we dont understand more than half of the things He does.

This is close to Calvin's view.

However, let's try a different idea:

Genesis 1 was written at a time when the Jews were under a lot of pressure by the Babylonians to convert. Genesis 1 is therefore written to reassure the Jews in their faith, not give an accurate history of creation. So, the authors of Genesis 1 (P) took the Babylonian creation account in the Enuma Elish and changed it such that all the Babylonian gods are destroyed. This is accomplished by making them created entities of Yahweh. Thus, when God separates the waters, He is separating saltwater from sweet(fresh)water. The first 2 Babylonian gods in the Enuma Elish are Apsu and Tiamet -- saltwater and sweetwater. Now, if saltwater and sweetwater are created by God, then Apsu and Tiamet can't be gods. Similarly, we have plants created before the sun, moon, and stars. That is because, in the Enuma Elish, Marduck the god of agricultural plants, is the older brother of the sun and moon goddesses. So Genesis 1 continues to destroy the Babylonian gods in the order in which they appear in the Enuma Elish.

It's a theological monograph for monotheism, not a history of how God created.

Now, the "evening and morning" are there because Exodus happened before Genesis 1 was written. In Exodus, God commands the Sabbath. The authors in Genesis 1 make a (unnecessary) justification for the Sabbath. We rest on the 7th day not because God commands us to, but because God created in 6 days and rested on the 7th! Then the editor that put the Pentateuch together inserted Exodus 20:11 and other passages to make the circle of reasoning complete.

So, "evening and morning" are there to make conventional days in the absence of the sun. So the authors intended 24-hour days but did so for theological reasons, not because God created that way.

 

[lucaspa]

I think the scripture that you mean about angels watching the creation is in Job38, maybe around verse 4-8 (i think, don't have my Bible out at the moment).

He's referring to Job 1, where Satan is just one of the angels, walks the earth, but comes back to heaven from time to time. He is on friendly terms with God and is God's betting buddy. Satan does nothing to Job but what God tells him.

So, Satan is not cast out in Job. However, by the time the gospel of Matthew is written, Satan is cast out and is the declared enemy of God. So the casting out of Satan can't be a "future event". What's more, doesn't Revelations talk abou it in the past tense?

The Book of Enoch is written sometime in the intertestament period, is where we first see that Satan is cast out. Enoch is not included in the canon but was very influential and forms the basis of the passages in the gospels concerning Satan and his temptations of Jesus.

 

[lucaspa]

Genesis 2:1 (KJV)
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Exodus 20:11 (KJV)
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


From those verses we can see that all was created in the 6 days of creation. The host of heaven which includes angels was part of the creation

This is ambiguous. "all the host of them" can be "allthat in them is", which simply means all the physical objects in the heavens -- sun, moon, stars, comets, etc -- and all the physical objects on earth.

Now, Genesis 6:1-3 says "Wehn men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the heavenly beings (or sons of God) saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they too to wife such of them as they chose. Then the Lord said, 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for his is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.' "

So, where did these "heavenly being" or "sons of God" come from? They are not mentioned as having been created in either Genesis 1, 2-3, or even Genesis 6. They are immortal.

Now, Job 38 does have the "sons of God" being there at the beginning of creation! Those passages would have them existing before Creation, along with God.

 

[Ron21647]

He's referring to Job 1, where Satan is just one of the angels, walks the earth, but comes back to heaven from time to time. He is on friendly terms with God and is God's betting buddy. Satan does nothing to Job but what God tells him.

So, Satan is not cast out in Job. However, by the time the gospel of Matthew is written, Satan is cast out and is the declared enemy of God. So the casting out of Satan can't be a "future event". What's more, doesn't Revelations talk abou it in the past tense?

The Book of Enoch is written sometime in the intertestament period, is where we first see that Satan is cast out. Enoch is not included in the canon but was very influential and forms the basis of the passages in the gospels concerning Satan and his temptations of Jesus.

Actually I referred to Job 1 in one post, in which Satan had access to heaven and God's presence to accuse Job.

In another post, I said I thought there was a scripture in which the angels watched creatio occur. I've now looked it up, and I was thinking of Job 38.

added on edit: I should have read the intervening post before I replied to you.

Ron

 

[KleinerApfel]

as to the part about the angels, you have a point. However, it does not mntion them specifically in the first chpaters of Genesis. although we know they were there to guard the Garden of Eden.

I have no idea where this is, but I will look. I was sure there is a scripture saying the angels watched the creation happen and marvelled at it.

Ron

This might be the scripture you mention:

Job 38

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Blessings, Susana