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Creation Is Truth.

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Larry

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Trev_27 said:
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1. Why do you mock my age? It does not impose limits on my knowledge.

I think what Jack was pointing out, is that most here do read and study the Bible. Some, including myself, have been reading and studying the Bible for many years...longer than you have been alive. So, just because there are those who don't agree with you on the interpretation does not mean they don't read and study the Bible. Age, and more importantly, how long one has been studying scripture does make a difference. And, unless you are claiming to have absolute and divine knowledge of everything, your qualifications fall short when compared to others who have invidually and collectively studied scripture many, many times the years you have. :)
 
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RVincent

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1. “Winged insects that walk ‘on all fours’ [or have 4 feet (not including hind hopping legs)] are not ‘clean’ (as described by the Law of Moses).
2. Back hopping legs are not considered feet .
3. Insects that walk ‘on all fours’, have wings, and have hind hopping legs have the characteristics of the grasshopper, cricket, and the locust.

Number one instantly reduced the number of insects that are being discussed. All insects that are not winged are not being referred to. Number one also indicates those with wings and that walk ‘on all fours’ are not good to eat except the 4 kinds listed in verse 22. Number two tells us that the Bible says there is a difference between the feet on these insects and their back hopping legs. Number three gives some examples of these types of life forms.

"This is another old saw which argues that Jesus was wrong because there are smaller seeds in existence, like the orchid. But the Greek word here is mikros, which defines thusly:

G398. mikros, mik-ros'; includ. the comp. mikroteros, mik-rot'-er-os; appar. a prim. word; small (in size, quantity, number or (fig.) dignity):--least, less, little, small.​

So, it is also used in Luke 9:48 -

And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.​

Obviously, Jesus did not mean here that he who was smallest in size would be greatest! So we suggest that the mustard seed description is not an evaluation of size at all (or exclusively), but an evaluation of worth - which is a matter of personal judgment that is quite acceptable and cannot be charged as erroneous."

But please don't forget what I said at the first, "I agree that through generations (meaning time) and translation we have errors,..." And I certainly do not interpret everything in the Bible literally.
 
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gluadys

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Trev_27 said:
2. You should take many things in the Bible to be true. Prophesy is not "bunk". Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC that Christ would come as Israel's promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled.

That is only one possible interpretation of the passage. It is not a straightforward reading of the passage, but depends on prior acceptance of a particular interpretive framework.

Against it we can set other facts:

Biblical prophecy is not divination or foretelling of the future. It is always geared to pronouncing God's judgment in the present.

Daniel was not a prophet anyway. Jewish scholars place the book of Daniel in the section of scriptures known as the Writings not among the prophets.

The book of Daniel is not a book of prophecy. The first part is a carefully crafted re-construction of the life of Daniel. The second part is an apocalypse. Apocalyptic writing is not prophetic.

The book of Daniel was not written by Daniel. It was written by an anonymous author in the 2nd century BCE

The whole of the book of Daniel is a message of courage and resistance to Jews under the oppressive heel of Antiochus Epiphanes.

In Chapter 7 for example the "little horn" that destroyed three kings and spoke great words against the most high is Antiochus. The angel's description of the ten horns and the little horn that replaced three of them is an accurate symbolic description of how Antiochus came to power. Chapter 11 recounts in symbolic language but with considerable accuracy the rivalry of the Ptolemaic and Seleucid empires, both of which ruled Judea at different times.


You say the Bible is not scientificaly accurate. What about Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22),Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9),law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7),hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22),law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)the importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11) or atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6) or even the gravitational field (Job 26:7).

Isaiah 40:22 describes a flat circle.

Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts." Nothing about stars there. Is this citation a typo?

II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word, kept in store, are reserved unto fire against the day of judgment."

It's a pretty long stretch from there to the law of conservation of matter and energy. Even the phrase "kept in store" could mean nothing more than that God keeps up the regularity of seasonal patterns as promised to Noah.

You need to distinguish between what the text actually says and the meanings people have ascribed to the text. Interpreted meaning is not part of the text and it is an error to say it is "in the bible". It is not.

Note, I am not saying the interpretation is necessarily wrong. It could be a good interpretation. But even a good interpretation is not the same thing as the actual text. Only the actual text is what the bible says. Not an interpretation no matter how good it is.

Much the same can be said about the remaining verses. Let's remember that people of ancient times were neither unobservant nor stupid. They could observe that sea levels did not constantly rise, that rain fell in mountains and filled rivers that ran to the sea, that winds blew and that without blood, living things died, and eventually all living things died anyway. That does NOT mean they had a scientific understanding of hydrological cycles, atmospheric circualtion, entropy or biological processes, and it is a distortion of scripture to read these ideas in anachronistically.

Does Job 26:7 show an understanding of gravity? Not when 4 verses later the writer speaks of "the pillars of heaven".



You should also notice that no REAL "mistake or contradiction" have been found in the Bible many have been claimed, Bible scholars have always been able to work out reasonable solutions to all such problems.

This overlooks two problems. 1. If the contradiction were not there in the first place, there would be no need to find a solution. The very fact that one has to look for a solution verifies that the contradiction exists. 2. What is the evidence that the solution is correct? Is it really a solution or a "just so story"?
 
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RVincent

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Concerning Daniel:

"Prophecy is the word of Yahoveh (2Peter 1:21); and, as Jehovah is He Who was, and is, and is to come, prophecy must partake of, and relate to, the past, present, and future also; and must have this threefold interpretation or application. The prophecy first quoted by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament will show us how He uses the prophecy which He had Himself inspired; and therefore will furnish us with the principles on which we are to interpret other prophecies.

It will be seen that a prophecy may have (1) a reference to the time and occasion on which it was first spoken; (2) a reference to a later event or circumstances (when it is quoted as having been "spoken", or "written"); and (3) a reference to a yet later or future or final event, which exhausts it (when it is quoted as being "fulfilled;" i.e. filled full).

Hence, instead of speaking of "praeterists" and "futurists", we must sometimes take a larger view, and be prepared to see both a past, present and future interpretation." (From here)

Concerning Criticism:

During the 16, 17, and 1800's, a movement started that would eventually be known as the "Higher Criticism". They were the ones who began to question the Divine Authorship of the Bible, questioned the authorship of Isaiah, the Pentatuech, etc.

"Regarding the views of the Continental Critics, three things can be confidently asserted of nearly all, if not all, of the real leaders.

1. They were men who denied the validity of miracle, and the validity of any miraculous narrative. What Christians consider to be miraculous they considered legendary or mythical; “legendary exaggeration of events that are entirely explicable from natural causes.”

2. They were men who denied the reality of prophecy and the validity of any prophetical statement. What Christians have been accustomed to consider prophetical, they called dexterous conjectures, coincidences, fiction, or imposture.

3. They were men who denied the reality of revelation, in the sense in which it has ever been held by the universal Christian Church. They were avowed unbelievers of the supernatural. Their theories were excogitated on pure grounds of human reasoning. Their hypotheses were constructed on the assumption of the falsity of Scripture. As to the inspiration of the Bible, as to the Holy Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation being the Word of God, they had no such belief. We may take them one by one. Spinoza repudiated absolutely a supernatural revelation. And Spinoza was one of their greatest. Eichhorn discarded the miraculous, and considered that the so-called supernatural element was an Oriental exaggeration; and Eichhorn has been called the father of Higher Criticism, and was the first man to use the term. De Wette’s views as to inspiration were entirely infidel. Vatke and Leopold George were Hegelian rationalists, and regarded the first four books of the Old Testament as entirely mythical. Kuenen, says Professor Sanday, wrote in the interests of an almost avowed Naturalism. That is, he was a free-thinker, an agnostic; a man who did not believe in the Revelation of the one true and living God. (Brampton Lectures, 1893, page 117). He wrote from an avowedly naturalistic standpoint, says Driver (page 205). According to Wellhausen the religion of Israel was a naturalistic evolution from heathendom, an emanation from an imperfectly monotheistic kind of semi-pagan idolatry. It was simply a human religion."

Since since the beginning of wisdom is reverence for God (Pro. 1:7), the knowledge of these atheists is incomplete, no matter how much study in the Bible they have done.

Please note, I am not saying that any of you guys are atheists!

But unfortunately, much of this atheistic teaching has seeped into the church.
 
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gluadys

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RVincent said:
Concerning Daniel:

"Prophecy is the word of Yahoveh (2Peter 1:21); and, as Jehovah is He Who was, and is, and is to come, prophecy must partake of, and relate to, the past, present, and future also; and must have this threefold interpretation or application. The prophecy first quoted by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament will show us how He uses the prophecy which He had Himself inspired; and therefore will furnish us with the principles on which we are to interpret other prophecies.

It will be seen that a prophecy may have (1) a reference to the time and occasion on which it was first spoken; (2) a reference to a later event or circumstances (when it is quoted as having been "spoken", or "written"); and (3) a reference to a yet later or future or final event, which exhausts it (when it is quoted as being "fulfilled;" i.e. filled full).

Hence, instead of speaking of "praeterists" and "futurists", we must sometimes take a larger view, and be prepared to see both a past, present and future interpretation." (From here)

This is the sort of thing I mean by an "interpretive framework". You are setting out some of the principles through which a certain school of thought interprets biblical passages.

That framework itself is not part of scripture, nor is there any reason to consider it the only valid interpretive framework.

The rest of the post is an ad hominem attack and so merits no reply.
 
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RVincent

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I am not saying that any of you guys are atheists!

I am not saying that any of you guys are atheists.

I am not saying that any of you guys are atheists.

I am not saying that any of you guys are atheists.

The First Fulfilment of Prophecy defines the principals.
 
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Larry

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RVincent said:
I am not saying that any of you guys are atheists!

I am not saying that any of you guys are atheists.

I am not saying that any of you guys are atheists.

I am not saying that any of you guys are atheists.

That's nice. It makes sense too. :) And no one is calling you an atheist, either. After all, this is a Christians Only subforum. Atheists and non-Christians are not allowed to post here. This subforum is for Christians only. :)
 
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RVincent

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Thanks Larry.

My only point was that atheists are not qualified to make textual criticism because they will not have God's blessings for wisdom when they do.

But I attended a Christian college and heard the atheists teachings myself. They have entered the church.
 
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Larry

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RVincent said:
Thanks Larry.

My only point was that atheists are not qualified to make textual criticism because they will not have God's blessings for wisdom when they do.

But I attended a Christian college and heard the atheists teachings myself. They have entered the church.

I think God is powerfull enough to keep His promise and protect the church from the gates of Hell. I wouldn't worry about atheists infiltrating the church with any success. ;)
 
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RVincent

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I'm speaking of doctrine. The parable of the leaven shows the infiltration of the unclean into the clean. If the "church" opens the door, any dirty bird will make its nest in the branches.

And they do not all come in the form of atheists.

Conspiracy is no theory.

(2 Cor 11:13-15) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves into the apostles of Christ. {14} And no marvel; for Satan himself is disguised into an angel of light. {15} Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be disguised as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Do you believe God's word?
 
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Larry

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RVincent said:
I'm speaking of doctrine. The parable of the leaven shows the infiltration of the unclean into the clean. If the "church" opens the door, any dirty bird will make its nest in the branches.

I'm with you, and understood what you meant. God's promise applies. :)
 
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Macca

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RVincent said:
I'm speaking of doctrine. The parable of the leaven shows the infiltration of the unclean into the clean. If the "church" opens the door, any dirty bird will make its nest in the branches.
In the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus said, "do not root up the tares, lest you disturb the roots of the wheat."
Let them come in and be affected by the Word.
Macca. :holy:
 
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Larry

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At the church level -

"18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18)



On the individual level -

"38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)
 
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RVincent

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The gates of hell will not prevail against it, but the battle hasn't ended.

(2 Cor 11:13-15) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. {14} And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. {15} Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Romans is speaking of the elect (v. 33).
 
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Larry

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RVincent said:
The gates of hell will not prevail against it, but the battle hasn't ended.

(2 Cor 11:13-15) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. {14} And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. {15} Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Romans is speaking of the elect (v. 33).

Correct. And the collective group of Spirit filled believers, (the church), will not be decieved. :)
 
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