Creation/Evolution/Confusion

[Holly's_Dream]

I am a new Christian, i grew up in a non-Christian household and went to non-Christian schools.
As such, i grew up learning man came from apes, and pretty much everything else stemmed from some kind of adapted fish creature.
However, now that i have become a Christian, and learnt the truth of the Bible it is hard to undo 20 years of conditioning on the ascension of man.
I get the Biblical view, and i understand where the world is now, but because of that confusion, everything in between those time frames is a bit of a blur.
Can anyone help me unravel these things a little?

 

[USincognito]

If you're looking for a theological discussion or how to accomodate your worldviews, I'd suggest reposting your OP in Origins Theology.
Origins Theology - Christian Forums

 

[AV1611VET]

I am a new Christian, i grew up in a non-Christian household and went to non-Christian schools.
As such, i grew up learning man came from apes, and pretty much everything else stemmed from some kind of adapted fish creature.
However, now that i have become a Christian, and learnt the truth of the Bible it is hard to undo 20 years of conditioning on the ascension of man.
I get the Biblical view, and i understand where the world is now, but because of that confusion, everything in between those time frames is a bit of a blur.
Can anyone help me unravel these things a little?

Welcome to the Family of God, Holly --

My suggestion is to read your Bible and pray; your faith will grow.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Cabal]

I am a new Christian, i grew up in a non-Christian household and went to non-Christian schools.
As such, i grew up learning man came from apes, and pretty much everything else stemmed from some kind of adapted fish creature.
However, now that i have become a Christian, and learnt the truth of the Bible it is hard to undo 20 years of conditioning on the ascension of man.
I get the Biblical view, and i understand where the world is now, but because of that confusion, everything in between those time frames is a bit of a blur.
Can anyone help me unravel these things a little?

Being a Christian does not mean you have to reject science, the two are not mutually exclusive. Many Christians are theistic evolutionists, which means they have managed to reconcile their faith with contemporary science.

A piece of advice, however - don't get bogged down in the actual creation mechanism - it's the least important part of Genesis 1.

 

[samcarternx]

There is no contradiction between the scriptures and the scientific explanations of the origin and mechanisms of the universe. big bang = "let there be light."; "its seed is within itself." = DNA; "took dust of the earth" = manlike creature transformed into Man. Evolution is a mechanism for lifeforms to adapt to change. Time is only found in in the physical universe, (E=MCsquared; speed of light requires /second which refers to time). In the spirit universe no matter, no time. No problems

 

[Hespera]

I am a new Christian, i grew up in a non-Christian household and went to non-Christian schools.
As such, i grew up learning man came from apes, and pretty much everything else stemmed from some kind of adapted fish creature.
However, now that i have become a Christian, and learnt the truth of the Bible it is hard to undo 20 years of conditioning on the ascension of man.
I get the Biblical view, and i understand where the world is now, but because of that confusion, everything in between those time frames is a bit of a blur.
Can anyone help me unravel these things a little?

There is truth in the bible, but its not a science text.

If you choose a sect that requires you to reject reality in order to be part of it, maybe its better to consider a different church.

That should be a non negotiable point.

They dont all make such unreasonable demands.

i have been to church myself, and considered being a Christian, but Im not going to drink kool aid. if there is a god and he gave us brains, id think he want us to use them responsibly.

 

[samcarternx]

There is truth in the bible, but its not a science text.

If you choose a sect that requires you to reject reality in order to be part of it, maybe its better to consider a different church.

That should be a non negotiable point.

They dont all make such unreasonable demands.

i have been to church myself, and considered being a Christian, but Im not going to drink kool aid. if there is a god and he gave us brains, id think he want us to use them responsibly.

If one examines the physical universe it becomes evident that it is a humongous MACHINE that produces people, and it WORKS. All machines require a builder. If this machine was any different it would not work. The church is a spiritual body of Holy Spirit-sharing humans and there is only one. love-sam

 

[Skaloop]

If one examines the physical universe it becomes evident that it is a humongous MACHINE that produces people, and it WORKS. All machines require a builder. If this machine was any different it would not work. The church is a spiritual body of Holy Spirit-sharing humans and there is only one. love-sam

More like a machine to produce bacteria. And beetles; all sorts of beetles.

And it's not even very good at that, since it produces bacteria and beetles (and people) only on one tiny portion of it. It would be like making a huge factory just to serve as a bottle opener.

Anyway, it's not a machine in the first place, and it could be different in many ways and still function. Not exactly as it does now, but it could still be there.

 

[samcarternx]

More like a machine to produce bacteria. And beetles; all sorts of beetles.

And it's not even very good at that, since it produces bacteria and beetles (and people) only on one tiny portion of it. It would be like making a huge factory just to serve as a bottle opener.

Anyway, it's not a machine in the first place, and it could be different in many ways and still function. Not exactly as it does now, but it could still be there.

Some factories are huge compared to output, and why do you say it is not a machine since it combines raw materials into walking, talking, life forms? Also any difference would have been with hydrogen and the chemistry of life forms would affect the precision of their chemistry and that is what kills them. love-sam

 

[Hespera]

If one examines the physical universe it becomes evident that it is a humongous MACHINE that produces people, and it WORKS. All machines require a builder. If this machine was any different it would not work. The church is a spiritual body of Holy Spirit-sharing humans and there is only one. love-sam

Not necessarily. Some find that to be evident, others dont.

I dont. Im hardly a leading edge researcher to say what one sees when he examines the universe; I have a double major science BS, and a year of grad school only. But nothing i know seems to me evidence of a creator.
No know of no evidence for, none against.


I do know, tho, that the creationist / biblical literalist views are mainly held by the ill-educated, and that no researcher has ever developed data to indicate there is any literal truth in the creation / flood etc mythology.

Now, be it noted, that there are a lot of scientists who are Christians, and who do good work as scientists.

Includes people who work in biology and geology-neither of which make sense at all without evolution and deep time.

Noted too, that there is nothing about science or anything else to show that there is no Creator. There may well be; you, I, nor anyone else knows for sure.


My point was simply that evolution and deep time are as real as rain, so
If you choose a sect that requires you to reject reality in order to be part of it, maybe its better to consider a different church.

A lot of thoughtful people find they can be good christians and not have to deny reality to do it. To me that is the better choice than going with
a church of willful ignorance and superstition.

 

[Hespera]

More like a machine to produce bacteria. And beetles; all sorts of beetles.

And it's not even very good at that, since it produces bacteria and beetles (and people) only on one tiny portion of it. It would be like making a huge factory just to serve as a bottle opener.

Anyway, it's not a machine in the first place, and it could be different in many ways and still function. Not exactly as it does now, but it could still be there.

As background to this joke, know that there is a simply enormous number of distinct species of beetle: well over 300,000; and you need to know of the famous quip by J.B.S. Haldane.



When asked “What has the study of biology taught you about the Creator, Dr. Haldane?”, he replied
“I’m not sure, but He seems to be inordinately fond of beetles.”


This inspired the following mediation on Adam naming the animals…
God: And here’s the next species, one I’m particularly proud of…

Adam: Beetle.

God: Excellent. Now here’s another…

Adam: Beetle.

God: No, you just named the last one “beetle”. This one is quite different — look at the pattern on the wing cases, and the shape of the antennae…
Adam: Beetle.

God: Well, OK, though they certainly look different to Me. Now, the next species is —

Adam: Beetle.

 

[samcarternx]

Not necessarily. Some find that to be evident, others dont.

I dont. Im hardly a leading edge researcher to say what one sees when he examines the universe; I have a double major science BS, and a year of grad school only. But nothing i know seems to me evidence of a creator.
No know of no evidence for, none against.


I do know, tho, that the creationist / biblical literalist views are mainly held by the ill-educated, and that no researcher has ever developed data to indicate there is any literal truth in the creation / flood etc mythology.

Now, be it noted, that there are a lot of scientists who are Christians, and who do good work as scientists.


Includes people who work in biology and geology-neither of which make sense at all without evolution and deep time.

Noted too, that there is nothing about science or anything else to show that there is no Creator. There may well be; you, I, nor anyone else knows for sure.


My point was simply that evolution and deep time are as real as rain, so
If you choose a sect that requires you to reject reality in order to be part of it, maybe its better to consider a different church.

A lot of thoughtful people find they can be good christians and not have to deny reality to do it. To me that is the better choice than going with
a church of willful ignorance and superstition.

You say you don't see the physical universe as a machine, yet you would recognize an arrowhead as more than just a rock. You would agree it was a rock fashioned with for a purpose. I just apply that to the whole. I recognize my own existence cannot be explained, and it is obvious I did not flake off from a boulder and there are many of us so viola - a machine that makes things like me. Are we quibbling? love-sam

 

[Hespera]

You say you don't see the physical universe as a machine, yet you would recognize an arrowhead as more than just a rock. You would agree it was a rock fashioned with for a purpose. I just apply that to the whole. I recognize my own existence cannot be explained, and it is obvious I did not flake off from a boulder and there are many of us so viola - a machine that makes things like me. Are we quibbling? love-sam

Well now, first off, I didnt say that. I wouldnt. Saying the universe is a machine is to metaphorical for me, sorry, im not into flights of poetic fantasy.

Also, I try not to do too much reasons via analogy, and i find yours strained in the extreme.

If you studied any archaeology, you know that some artifacts are obvious, and others are not. Nothing unusual about finds that are borderline, and it is difficult to impossible to say if they are artifacts.

i see your idea about applying the idea that some things are designed and applying that to the whole.

But try looking at it this way. You know that if you run a hose across loose sand, if soon forms a miniature river system, with cut banks, meanders, riffle and run, braided channels and sandbars, etc.

Was THAT intelligently designed? Or did a combo of gravity etc do it with no designer showing it where to move those pieces of sand?

If the universe is a machine that makes things like a river with no designer guiding the process, why cant it make you too?

I personally dont believe there is a Creator. But, i cant show there is not.

If there is a Creator, then he set things up, and then let them run themselves. You are not Designed; you are the natural outcome of a universe that includes the materials and the forces that exist.... for whatever reason that they exist.

I cant EXPLAIN it either. Nobody can; that is why I dont go for the canned goddidit explanation. At its core, its just a guess.

Maybe some day there will be far more explanation than we could conceive of; why not, mankind, and science even more, are in their infancy. Check back in 5 million yeas, see what we can do then.

If there is a Creator, nobody has a pipeline to the facts about him. Certainly not some middle eastern guys a few K years ago, who told stories of a global flood and such.

If you feel you have to have some sort of explanation then i guess god will do as well as the next. Personally i dont feel I have to have something that i am not going to get.

not quibbling at all.

 

[samcarternx]

This video should help.

YouTube - Welcome To This World[/url]

whoever made that video did not understand reality. Just tell him he is born separated from his maker and his life will prove that over time, and that being reunited with Him will fix him so that he stops bringing pain and suffering on himself and others. And mention that the life that he experiences with his Maker will continue even past the loss of his chemistry. Oh yes, this reunion occurs through Savior the Chosen one and his obedience to His words. love - sam

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

whoever made that video did not understand reality. Just tell him he is born separated from his maker and his life will prove that over time, and that being reunited with Him will fix him so that he stops bringing pain and suffering on himself and others. And mention that the life that he experiences with his Maker will continue even past the loss of his chemistry. Oh yes, this reunion occurs through Savior the Chosen one and his obedience to His words. love - sam

A. It is your belief that you were born seperated from your maker.
B. It is your assertion that being reunited with your maker will fix him and stop pain and suffering on himself and others.
C. It is your belief that there is an after life.
D. It is your blief that Jesus is the Chosen one.

Question: How do you know? Why is Allah not the Chosen one?

 

[samcarternx]

Well now, first off, I didnt say that. I wouldnt. Saying the universe is a machine is to metaphorical for me, sorry, im not into flights of poetic fantasy.

Also, I try not to do too much reasons via analogy, and i find yours strained in the extreme.

If you studied any archaeology, you know that some artifacts are obvious, and others are not. Nothing unusual about finds that are borderline, and it is difficult to impossible to say if they are artifacts.

i see your idea about applying the idea that some things are designed and applying that to the whole.

But try looking at it this way. You know that if you run a hose across loose sand, if soon forms a miniature river system, with cut banks, meanders, riffle and run, braided channels and sandbars, etc.

Was THAT intelligently designed? Or did a combo of gravity etc do it with no designer showing it where to move those pieces of sand?

If the universe is a machine that makes things like a river with no designer guiding the process, why cant it make you too?

I personally dont believe there is a Creator. But, i cant show there is not.

If there is a Creator, then he set things up, and then let them run themselves. You are not Designed; you are the natural outcome of a universe that includes the materials and the forces that exist.... for whatever reason that they exist.

I cant EXPLAIN it either. Nobody can; that is why I dont go for the canned goddidit explanation. At its core, its just a guess.

Maybe some day there will be far more explanation than we could conceive of; why not, mankind, and science even more, are in their infancy. Check back in 5 million yeas, see what we can do then.

If there is a Creator, nobody has a pipeline to the facts about him. Certainly not some middle eastern guys a few K years ago, who told stories of a global flood and such.

If you feel you have to have some sort of explanation then i guess god will do as well as the next. Personally i dont feel I have to have something that i am not going to get.

not quibbling at all.

I'm still seeking agreement. I'm saying life forms are artifacts because brussel sprouts are different from pebbles and you cannot explain that difference only that the difference is one of great magnitude. Life forms don't have place in inanimate chemistry and their complexity is to great to shrug off outside interaction. You didn't make this universe anymore than I did so first I postulate that God did it then I figger He didn't leave me hanging so I set out to find out and sure enough He left a trail. love-sam

 

[Cabal]

Life forms don't have place in inanimate chemistry

As opposed to.....?

You do realise that eventually on small scales lifeforms are made of non-replicating molecules, right?

 

[Naraoia]

If one examines the physical universe it becomes evident that it is a humongous MACHINE that produces people,

How anthropocentric.

All machines require a builder.

That may be a self-evident truth for you, but I would like to see your reasoning.

 

[samcarternx]

As opposed to.....?

You do realise that eventually on small scales lifeforms are made of non-replicating molecules, right?

Why do you call them lifeforms then.

love-sam

 

[Cabal]

Why do you call them lifeforms then.

love-sam

I'm pointing out that there aren't two different forms of chemistry. The same chemistry governs both life and non-life.