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Creation debate the Progressive SDA side

VictorC

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One of the thing that I find very intriguing about SDA folks is that unless you agree with them it is an attack against their church.They simply can not discuss theology with anyone outside of their church. My good friend VictorC uses a quote to this affect. Maybe he will post it again for your benefit.
Perhaps this is what you had in mind:
We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar of the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {MR760 19.2}​

From that quote we remove the qualifier concerning the Sanctuary Doctrine in order to see the meaning of what Ellen White wrote more clearly:

And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them is a great mistake.
 
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StormyOne

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One of the thing that I find very intriguing about SDA folks is tha unless you agree with them it is an attack against their church.They simply can not discuss theology with anyone outside of their church. My good friend VictorC uses a quote to this affect. Maybe he will post it again for your benefit. SDA have zero tolerance toward others.

bugkiller
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some sda's bugkiller....lol of course some sda's have little tolerance for those who do not believe as they do.... usually those sda's are labeled workers of satan or some such foolishness....
 
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VictorC

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some sda's bugkiller....lol of course some sda's have little tolerance for those who do not believe as they do.... usually those sda's are labeled workers of satan or some such foolishness....
More often they label others as "workers of satan":
I have little patience for those who do Satan’s bidding for the purpose of running down the SDA church which upholds, (perhaps not all), but certainly the most of His Truth in this world.
 
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bugkiller

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Perhaps this is what you had in mind:
We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar of the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {MR760 19.2}
From that quote we remove the qualifier concerning the Sanctuary Doctrine in order to see the meaning of what Ellen White wrote more clearly:
And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them is a great mistake.
Excellent, my friend.

bugkiller
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sdadoug

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No surprise you would have difficulty with White as you don’t even believe the scriptures to which her writings point. Here is a quote which does not have to be taken out of context to make a point and better approximates the direction of discussions we have had in the past but, for my part, will not continue:

“Let men be careful how they handle the Word of inspiration, which has been preserved for ages through the power of God. If men were themselves controlled by the Holy Spirit they would bring heart and soul to the task, searching and digging in the mines of God for precious ore. They would be eager to come into harmony with the writings of inspired men. If they are not controlled by the Spirit of God, they will give evidence of this by caviling over His word and by sitting in judgment upon its teachings just as did the Jews” …”They do not reverence the Sacred Word. They put their own construction upon its utterances. Christ is not formed within, the hope of glory. They are educated critics, but spiritual truths can only be spiritually discerned. These men are ever ready and equipped to oppose at a moment's notice anything that is contrary to their own opinions. They handle the Scriptures in an unwise way, and bring self into everything they do”.

Hope you find whatever it is you are looking for.
 
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VictorC

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No surprise you would have difficulty with White as you don’t even believe the scriptures to which her writings point. Here is a quote which does not have to be taken out of context to make a point and better approximates the direction of discussions we have had in the past but, for my part, will not continue:

“Let men be careful how they handle the Word of inspiration, which has been preserved for ages through the power of God. If men were themselves controlled by the Holy Spirit they would bring heart and soul to the task, searching and digging in the mines of God for precious ore. They would be eager to come into harmony with the writings of inspired men. If they are not controlled by the Spirit of God, they will give evidence of this by caviling over His word and by sitting in judgment upon its teachings just as did the Jews” …”They do not reverence the Sacred Word. They put their own construction upon its utterances. Christ is not formed within, the hope of glory. They are educated critics, but spiritual truths can only be spiritually discerned. These men are ever ready and equipped to oppose at a moment's notice anything that is contrary to their own opinions. They handle the Scriptures in an unwise way, and bring self into everything they do”.

Hope you find whatever it is you are looking for.
Each time you have posted lately, it has been to tell us that you aren't going to discuss anything. Now tell me if that makes sense to you.

Speaking of context, your quote from Ellen White's address from November 1888 could use some more (and you forgot the citation).

I have been shown that Jesus will reveal to us precious old truths in a new light, if we are ready to receive them; but they must be received in the very way in which the Lord shall choose to send them. With humble, softened hearts, with respect and love for one another, search your Bibles. The light may not come in accordance with plans that men may devise. But all who reverence the Word of God just as it reads, all who do His will to the best of their ability, will know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, notwithstanding the efforts of the enemy to confuse minds and to make uncertain the Word of God. God calls every man's attention to His living Oracles. Let no one quench the Spirit of God by wresting the Scriptures, by putting human interpretations upon His inspired Word; and let no one pursue an unfair course, keep in the dark, not willing to open their ears to hear and yet free to comment and quibble and sow their doubts of that which they will not candidly take time to hear. {1888 167.1}

Let men be careful how they handle the Word of inspiration, which has been preserved for ages through the power of God. If men were themselves controlled by the Holy Spirit they would bring heart and soul to the task, searching and digging in the mines of God for precious ore. They would be eager to come into harmony with the writings of inspired men. If they are not controlled by the Spirit of God, they will give evidence of this by caviling over His word and by sitting in judgment upon its teachings just as did the Jews. {1888 167.2}

We should guard against the influence of men who have trained themselves as debaters, for they are in continual danger of handling the Word of God deceitfully. There are men in our churches all through the land who will pervert the meaning of the Scripture to make a sharp point and overcome an opponent. They do not reverence the Sacred Word. They put their own construction upon its utterances. Christ is not formed within, the hope of glory. They are educated critics, but spiritual truths can only be spiritually discerned. These men are ever ready and equipped to oppose at a moment's notice anything that is contrary to their own opinions. They handle the Scriptures in an unwise way, and bring self into everything they do. {1888 167.3}

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" (2 Tim. 2:24-26). The servant of the Lord must not strive, but must teach the Word of God in the manner that God has ordained. Any other way is not God's way, and will create confusion. {1888 167.4}

Brother Morrison is a debater; he is a man who has not had a daily, living experience in the meekness and lowliness of Christ. He is in danger of making false issues, and of treating them as realities. He will create strife, and the result will be dissensions and bickerings. He has many things to overcome, and if he fails to overcome them, he will make shipwreck of faith, as did Elder Canright. It is dangerous to cherish feelings of self-sufficiency. He must have the meekness of Christ; the sanctifying power of the truth must be brought into the sanctuary of his soul: then he will be a polished instrument in the hands of God to do His work. {1888 167.5}​
Now, I don't know who Morrison was, but I do know who Elder Canright was - and he didn't "shipwreck" his faith. What did he do?

He examined his Bible carefully, and found that Adventism's model erected to support a non-event in 1844 has a few problems. Massive problems, actually, much as the problems I have found in my own studies. You cannot accept a doctrine that denies Christ's atonement for us just because you need to prop up a non-event in 1844 for your church to continue. Ellen White encourages us to refer to our Bibles and accept what it says, but that isn't consistent with her own refusal to do so for fifty years, as she claimed in the previous quote from her that I provided. Ellen White's entire approach to apologetics is based on rejection of anything any critic of her "I saw" doctrines brought to the table.

You didn't respond to the quote I provided earlier, in which Ellen White demanded that her inspiration was either from God or the devil, leaving you with no middle ground to appeal to. I would have concluded she made a lot of stuff up from her own imagination, but she doesn't leave that option open for anyone to conclude.

I don't think you perceive that Ellen White would have rejected the "spirit" in which Jude wrote, who had this to say in his short epistle:

3 ¶ Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jude's emphasis was on God's grace, as are all of the new testament epistles.
The Adventist emphasis is on the law mediated in the hands of Moses in the first covenant Christ took away (Hebrews 10:9). Your own emphasis is consistent with that observation:
I will admit I am passionate about God’s Word, His Law, AND,unapologetically, His church.
Canright was rejected because he criticized the Sactuary Doctrine central to Adventist theology. He appealed instead to the common salvation we have by grace, by virtue of a completed and sufficient atonement that there is no "second and final phase" of (quoting SDA Fundamental Belief #24).

Ellen White's appeal to submit to your Bible by rejecting what it says is convoluted at best.
 
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Pythons

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Someone said that the Progressive SDA's had been on hiatus which I know is true in my case but I thought I would put up something from the LSU student who was so affronted that literalism was not the primary view he was taught by some professors. I think these are pretty good and I am pleased to see that we have professors considering more realistic views in the light of modern scholarship and science.



Current LSU Student Louie Bishop


Thestic Evolution will itself evolve into a known permissible belief system within SDA Schools as it essentially is a requirement of certain theological assertions made by the SDA Church, even though many of it's members do not fully realize it.

The Sabbath paradox as well as the SDA theological requirement of God's capability of mutation from one species into another will require a different interpretation of the Genesis then what has previously existed. It will interesting to see how it all unfolds for sure.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Well the Sabbath is a non issue as it is not required in the Genesis story and the scripture which records what was written on the tables of stone as the 10 commandments is the version in Deut. that says nothing about creation but about them being slaves in Egypt. The Sabbath and creation is just one of many possible ways of connecting rest to another idea, Like Hebrews does by connecting rest to Jesus. They are illustrations they don't require a literal 7 day creation to work whether there really was a literal 7 days or not.
 
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bugkiller

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Each time you have posted lately, it has been to tell us that you aren't going to discuss anything. Now tell me if that makes sense to you.

Speaking of context, your quote from Ellen White's address from November 1888 could use some more (and you forgot the citation).


I have been shown that Jesus will reveal to us precious old truths in a new light, if we are ready to receive them; but they must be received in the very way in which the Lord shall choose to send them. With humble, softened hearts, with respect and love for one another, search your Bibles. The light may not come in accordance with plans that men may devise. But all who reverence the Word of God just as it reads, all who do His will to the best of their ability, will know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, notwithstanding the efforts of the enemy to confuse minds and to make uncertain the Word of God. God calls every man's attention to His living Oracles. Let no one quench the Spirit of God by wresting the Scriptures, by putting human interpretations upon His inspired Word; and let no one pursue an unfair course, keep in the dark, not willing to open their ears to hear and yet free to comment and quibble and sow their doubts of that which they will not candidly take time to hear. {1888 167.1}

Let men be careful how they handle the Word of inspiration, which has been preserved for ages through the power of God. If men were themselves controlled by the Holy Spirit they would bring heart and soul to the task, searching and digging in the mines of God for precious ore. They would be eager to come into harmony with the writings of inspired men. If they are not controlled by the Spirit of God, they will give evidence of this by caviling over His word and by sitting in judgment upon its teachings just as did the Jews. {1888 167.2}

We should guard against the influence of men who have trained themselves as debaters, for they are in continual danger of handling the Word of God deceitfully. There are men in our churches all through the land who will pervert the meaning of the Scripture to make a sharp point and overcome an opponent. They do not reverence the Sacred Word. They put their own construction upon its utterances. Christ is not formed within, the hope of glory. They are educated critics, but spiritual truths can only be spiritually discerned. These men are ever ready and equipped to oppose at a moment's notice anything that is contrary to their own opinions. They handle the Scriptures in an unwise way, and bring self into everything they do. {1888 167.3}

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" (2 Tim. 2:24-26). The servant of the Lord must not strive, but must teach the Word of God in the manner that God has ordained. Any other way is not God's way, and will create confusion. {1888 167.4}

Brother Morrison is a debater; he is a man who has not had a daily, living experience in the meekness and lowliness of Christ. He is in danger of making false issues, and of treating them as realities. He will create strife, and the result will be dissensions and bickerings. He has many things to overcome, and if he fails to overcome them, he will make shipwreck of faith, as did Elder Canright. It is dangerous to cherish feelings of self-sufficiency. He must have the meekness of Christ; the sanctifying power of the truth must be brought into the sanctuary of his soul: then he will be a polished instrument in the hands of God to do His work. {1888 167.5}
Now, I don't know who Morrison was, but I do know who Elder Canright was - and he didn't "shipwreck" his faith. What did he do?

He examined his Bible carefully, and found that Adventism's model erected to support a non-event in 1844 has a few problems. Massive problems, actually, much as the problems I have found in my own studies. You cannot accept a doctrine that denies Christ's atonement for us just because you need to prop up a non-event in 1844 for your church to continue. Ellen White encourages us to refer to our Bibles and accept what it says, but that isn't consistent with her own refusal to do so for fifty years, as she claimed in the previous quote from her that I provided. Ellen White's entire approach to apologetics is based on rejection of anything any critic of her "I saw" doctrines brought to the table.

You didn't respond to the quote I provided earlier, in which Ellen White demanded that her inspiration was either from God or the devil, leaving you with no middle ground to appeal to. I would have concluded she made a lot of stuff up from her own imagination, but she doesn't leave that option open for anyone to conclude.

I don't think you perceive that Ellen White would have rejected the "spirit" in which Jude wrote, who had this to say in his short epistle:

3 ¶ Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude's emphasis was on God's grace, as are all of the new testament epistles.
The Adventist emphasis is on the law mediated in the hands of Moses in the first covenant Christ took away (Hebrews 10:9). Your own emphasis is consistent with that observation:

Canright was rejected because he criticized the Sactuary Doctrine central to Adventist theology. He appealed instead to the common salvation we have by grace, by virtue of a completed and sufficient atonement that there is no "second and final phase" of (quoting SDA Fundamental Belief #24).

Ellen White's appeal to submit to your Bible by rejecting what it says is convoluted at best.
I am sure somebody has called her the pen of confusion too.

bugkiller
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VictorC

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I am sure somebody has called her the pen of confusion too.

bugkiller
Or the "pen of liability", as opposed to the common Adventist claim of "pen of inspiration" to refer to the writings of Ellen White.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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I will take your word it was not your intention to condemn. Your missing the attacks made on my intent: “sounds like you have an axe to grind” and my logic: cling[ing] to magical thinking, and superstitious beliefs… (from someone I was not even addressing), were likely just an oversight on your part.

No, not an oversight. I was clearly articulating the way in which you were coming across to me, one individual participant in this forum. I could only know for sure whether or not you actually have an axe to grind if you say that you do.

I will admit I am passionate about God’s Word, His Law, AND,unapologetically, His church. Christ’s sacrifice to fulfill the Law and pay the penalty for breaking it has been under attack since the day the devil decided he represented righteousness and truth more fully than his Creator.

If He fulfilled it, then what is our source of disagreement? What happens when an obligation has been filled full?

I have little patience for those who do Satan’s bidding for the purpose of running down the SDA church which upholds, (perhaps not all), but certainly the most of His Truth in this world.

No condemnation there.

I was a born-again Christian wandering for many years from one denomination to another, knowing something was missing until I joined the SDA church.

If you were a born again Christian, then nothing would have been missing.

So now I have even less tolerance for those who have previously been in the church and now use “higher criticism” to mask their own apostasy and hypocrisy.

Clearly.

Perhaps I could be more objective in other forums where are found more honest seekers posting and responding.

So much condemnation. So little love.

BFA
 
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RND

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Well the Sabbath is a non issue as it is not required in the Genesis story and the scripture which records what was written on the tables of stone as the 10 commandments is the version in Deut. that says nothing about creation but about them being slaves in Egypt.
Um, this would be regarding the reasons for observation of the sabbath not the actual commandment itself. Moreover there is nothing in scripture nullifying the reasons for observing the sabbath in Ex. 20.

The Sabbath and creation is just one of many possible ways of connecting rest to another idea, Like Hebrews does by connecting rest to Jesus. They are illustrations they don't require a literal 7 day creation to work whether there really was a literal 7 days or not.
Except Ex. 20 is quite clear. "...in six days...". Days = yowm not "seven time periods of millions of years depending on which university honk you listen to"!
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Um, this would be regarding the reasons for observation of the sabbath not the actual commandment itself. Moreover there is nothing in scripture nullifying the reasons for observing the sabbath in Ex. 20.

Perhaps you can point us to the passage in Scripture that nullifies the observance of the feast of tabernacles?

BFA
 
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RND

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Please do.
Show the OP some respect and start another thread if you'd care for an answer to your inquiry.

You seem to believe that certain holy convocations have changed but that they have not all changed.
That's true.

Thanks in advance for helping me understand why you've reached this conclusion.
If you'd like an answer start another thread and show the OP some much needed respect. There is no reason to send this thread down another bunny hole.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Show the OP some respect and start another thread if you'd care for an answer to your inquiry.

That's true.

If you'd like an answer start another thread and show the OP some much needed respect. There is no reason to send this thread down another bunny hole.

Since you're concerned about the preservation of the OP, can you share with us the way in which the following statement relates to the OP:
There is nothing in scripture nullifying the reasons for observing the sabbath in Ex. 20.
It is this statement that prompted my reply. Are we going to address the elephant in the room or merely tiptoe around it? If you vote to tiptoe, I'll respect that.

BFA
 
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RND

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Since you're concerned about the preservation of the OP, can you share with us the way in which the following statement relates to the OP:
There is nothing in scripture nullifying the reasons for observing the sabbath in Ex. 20.
It is this statement that prompted my reply. Are we going to address the elephant in the room or merely tiptoe around it? If you vote to tiptoe, I'll respect that.

BFA
Your question was not in relation, in my mind, with my response to Ron. It appears to then lead the thread down a road I did not intend my comment to Ron to go. Sorry Ron, not looking to sidetrack your thread.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Um, this would be regarding the reasons for observation of the sabbath not the actual commandment itself. Moreover there is nothing in scripture nullifying the reasons for observing the sabbath in Ex. 20.

Except Ex. 20 is quite clear. "...in six days...". Days = yowm not "seven time periods of millions of years depending on which university honk you listen to"!

I was referring to the commandment. The problem is that people have fixated upon the Ex. 20 list instead of the actual commandments.

(Deu 5:12 NIV) "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you.

(Deu 5:13 NIV) Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

(Deu 5:14 NIV) but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.

(Deu 5:15 NIV) Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

(Deu 5:21 NIV) "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

(Deu 5:22 NIV) These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

So if you are going to go by the commandments than this is the list that is identified as being written on the tablets of stone and nothing more.
 
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RND

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I was referring to the commandment. The problem is that people have fixated upon the Ex. 20 list instead of the actual commandments.

(Deu 5:12 NIV) "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you.

(Deu 5:13 NIV) Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

(Deu 5:14 NIV) but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.

(Deu 5:15 NIV) Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

(Deu 5:21 NIV) "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

(Deu 5:22 NIV) These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

So if you are going to go by the commandments than this is the list that is identified as being written on the tablets of stone and nothing more.
There is no difference in the sabbath commandment between Ex. 20 and Deut. 5. The only difference cited is the 'reason' for observing it. The second stated reason doesn't cancel or negate the first stated reason. God is still the creator and the sabbath is still a reminder of His creation.
 
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