Creation Challenge: Refute it

[oOKnights TemplarOo]

Hello. I am trying not to stray off topic but.

Hi knightstemplar,

Thanks for your response. You replied:


It certainly does. However, that isn't the whole of the Scriptures. There is a lot of historical and prophetic accounts that have nothing to do with God's plan of salvation. My point, however, was that there are quite a few places where we find that some of the things written, don't appear to have been understood by the contemporaries of the writers. According to your quote of Galileo, he seems to have believed that it was. While that may be a good claim of the Scriptures, you certainly couldn't prove it by the Scriptures. Through the words of His prophet Isaiah, God Himself decried Israel's lack of understanding.

What has this to do with the topic? I am not willing to stray off the topic concerned.



Personally, I don't see how you arrive here:

Easy RESEARCH!


From there. However, I do fully agree that not only is each one allowed their own opinion, but most people even have their own truth.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

"However, I do fully agree that not only is each one allowed their own opinion, but most people even have their own truth." - Pardon?

 

[miamited]

Hi knightstemplar,

Well, you did say that I was entitled to my own opinion. I assume that you grant that allowance to everyone, right?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[oOKnights TemplarOo]

but most people even have their own truth." - Pardon?

There cannot be more than one truth. That was why I question marked your reply.

As for Galileo. I researched his papers. That is how I know his point.

But the posts are going way, way off the original topic. I am done! Come back on what I typed if you so desire. I will likely not reply.

 

[miamited]

Hi knigtstemplar,

Apparently the OP has also decided that answering the challenges to his treatise isn't worth the trouble either. Even though he asked for them. So, we have here a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make with you. He believes things are true that may not really be true. He lays as a foundation of his treatise this idea that there must have been some other heavenly bodies because if the universe were totally void, other than for the planetary body of the earth, as the Scriptures do attest, then what the Scriptures say about the earth being covered in water couldn't be true. Why can't it be true? Because he believes that it is true that water would freeze in an empty universe.

This is what usually happens in these various and sundry discussions that try to show that the simple understanding of God's word can't be the way it was meant for us to understand. Because we believe that some resultant consequence of the simple understanding would stand against some other idea or understanding 'that we know to be true'.

Take the light from the stars (BTW this is still on topic with the OP). We know that it is true that light travels at a given speed today in the here and now. We have tested it and we can actually measure the speed of the light waves that spread light out from an object that is producing light. We know it to be true that under normal circumstances when you walk into your bedroom and turn on your bedside lamp that the light waves emanating from the bulb are traveling at the tested and measured speed that light waves travel in. We know without a shred of doubt that such a scientific finding is true.

However, when God does something, all the natural properties that we assign and believe to operate in the world go out the window. Two walls of water cannot stand unaided. We know for a fact and it is a proven truth that water seeks its level. The sun cannot stand still in the sky. We know that for a fact and imagine that there would be total chaos in the universe if the sun were to just stop in the sky. It would mean that the earth had stopped spinning or that the sun was moving out of its fixed point as the center of our solar system and is actually traveling in a rotational path around the earth. We know for a fact that the sun cannot appear to stand still in the sky. We know for a fact that a shadow cast by the sun cannot possibly back up unless the object that it is shining on moves or the earth spins backwards. Or again, the sun begins to travel a path that causes it to go backwards in relation to the earth. It just isn't possible and we know that it is absolutely a fact that a shadow cast by the sun cannot go backwards. We know without the slightest doubt that a woman cannot become pregnant unless human sperm is introduced into her egg. We can do it outside the body these days, but it still takes those two simple organic parts for a woman to be pregnant.

So, for me, it just seems so simple that if God wants the light of all the stars to be seen by human eyes upon the earth at the very second that they were created...He can do that about as easily as He can make water stand on its head. Measuring age by tree rings and carbon dating and zircon halos are all just feeble attempts by man to try and date the creation without any concept or understanding of what those attributes would have looked like on the day that the earth was created. How do we know, for instance, that on the day that the planet was created, that the properties of organic matter weren't created at the half-life stage? The only way we could possibly know what such measurements should be in matter would be to have a piece of that matter from the day of creation to measure against. We don't have a single shred of any organic matter that we can provably say, existed on the day of creation.

So, we take our measurements and we weigh all our evidence and we conclude that there must be another truth. That even though God did say, He couldn't possibly have meant. Did God really say?

I believe: For in six days God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. I can't tell you how He did it and I certainly can't reconcile it with any scientific knowledge of man...but I believe it!

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again knightstemplar,

Now, this may be a bit off topic so you're free to ignore if you like.

Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God. Abraham knew that he and his wife were well beyond child rearing age. His wife no longer dropped eggs during her menstrual periods. She was beyond that age of having menstruation. But when God assured Abraham that he would have a son by his wife Sarah, Abraham believed him. Sarah didn't. She insisted that he sleep with here maidservant from which a child was born. But God spoke to Abraham after this feeble attempt of Sarah to bring about God's promise, and assured him that he and Sarah would have a child. Abraham believed God!

The Scriptures declare that God's righteous ones would live by faith. What is faith? Belief in the substance of things not seen. So, each one of us must cross a bridge of faith if we are to please God. It can be the bridge that ties God's word to the science of man, which isn't really faith because we've proven such things. We have seen the truth of the science of man. Once we cross that bridge that ties our belief about God with the proven science of man, then we are no longer resting on the substance of things not seen. Or, it can be the faith that ties a man's beliefs to the word of God.

That's the kind of believer that I am in the God and Creator of all that is. Will it make a difference on the day of God's judgment? Well, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. I imagine it will be a sad day if God, when His word speaks so much about belief and believing, says to all those good christians that surround his throne on the day of His judgment. "You didn't believe me. Depart from me you workers of iniquity". Let's face it and investigate it. When Jesus spoke the words to his disciples that not all who say to me Lord, Lord will be saved. He then goes on to describe christians. He speaks of some who did mighty miracles in his name. He talks of some who prophesied in his name. Others who did mighty works in his name. Those people were obviously christians and by the example of their works certainly had greater faith in God than I do. I've never done any great miracle or prophesied in Jesus' name. So, I think it worth considering the picture that Jesus was drawing for his disciples. Apparently just calling Jesus Lord isn't the end all be all of what constitutes saving faith. Could it be this attempt of those who claim to be God's children to reconcile the truth of God with the truth of man?

Those who go into our fellowships and worship among us, yet teach others that the simple truth of what God claims to have done in creating this realm of existence can't really be believed. If God did do it just as He says, how do you think He feels about those who try to teach others that such a preposterous idea just can't possibly be true?

Just some things that the Holy Spirit seems to convict me to look into. Why can't we be a people who, despite all the great scientific knowledge of man that the creation can't possibly have happened how and when the Scriptures seem to clearly say, who just shrug and say, "I don't care. God said He did it and I believe it?" Why must God's children feel compelled to make God's truth match man's truth?


God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi knightstemplar,

You responded to one of my posts:

As for Galileo. I researched his papers. That is how I know his point.

I'm sorry if I led you to believe that I thought that you didn't know what Galileo was thinking when he wrote the things that he wrote. I'm not. You may be correct or you may not. What I'm questioning is why you feel that you should put such faith in a man that you really know absolutely nothing about, beyond things written by and about him. We've had very strong men who proclaimed great faith in God that the end of the world was coming on such and such a date. Men who had sizable followings of others proclaiming to be blood bought children of God to follow after their explanations. Were these men right? The earth is still spinning in the universe and man is still full of every kind of wickedness and evil.

So, I'm just asking, on what basis do you believe that what Galileo wrote has any kernel of the truth of God in it? You say that Galileo made some profound statement about the Scriptures. That they tell of how to go to heaven and not how the heavens go. Really? God laid before Job quite a few questions and claims about the creation event. The whole of the first few chapters of Genesis tell us when the earth was created. The law repeats for our dull senses that the heavens and the earth and all that were in them were created in six days. The Scriptures, to me, do tell us quite a bit about 'how the heavens go'.

Yes, absolutely! The Scriptures tell us about God's great plan of salvation and account for us the working out of that plan. But, there are a lot of words in the Scriptures. Depending on the translation there are somewhere between 700 and 800 thousand words. Quite a lot of them have little to do with God's salvation. In fact, other than a few prophecies of the coming Messiah and one or two mentions of a salvation that is to come from God, there is very, very little account of God's salvation in the whole of the old covenant. Was Galileo really right in his claim?

We are a wicked and foolish people. We hear things said by others that just sound so cute and wise, but when we really sit down and ponder them, they often really aren't true. Now, that isn't to say that none of them are, of course. But, is it really true that the whole of the Scriptures give us no information about how the heavens go? God asks Job, "Where were you the foundations of the world were established?" A clear question inferring that there was a time that the foundations of the world were established. The Scriptures tell us that the sun, moon and stars were created to give light upon the earth and to tell seasons and times. That isn't telling us a bit of 'how the heavens go'?

What I find people, who support such comments made by others such as this comment by Galileo, really want to try and tell me, is that I can't trust what the Scriptures do say about 'how the heavens go'. That the Scriptures are not some 'scientific' reading, and I agree wholeheartedly that they are not. But then their next comment is, "So, we can't believe the things that the Scriptures do tell us about the creation because science trumps God". Not in my house!

Science is merely a machination of man to endeavor to explain the things that we see. In those things that we can see in the here and now, that we can repeatedly reproduce, I would agree with science. But, when science tries to then extrapolate what we see and measure and test in the here and now across the ages to a time for which there were no witnesses outside of the heavenly realm; when science tries to tell me that God couldn't have done it as He said He did because we know some things to be true in the here and now, well, I kind of stop and say to myself, "Wait a minute! God made water stand on its head. God made the sun to stand still in the sky. God made it to be pitch black in all of Egypt for three days, and yet the suburb of Goshen which sat right beside the great cities of Egypt, according to the Scriptures enjoyed those same three days with pretty normal daylight and nighttime periods. God made a donkey speak in an intelligible voice. I shouldn't believe that God can make something as simple as the light of the stars to be visible upon the earth in the moment that they were made? I shouldn't believe that this God who can make the sun stand still in the sky and at another time make it go backwards, I shouldn't believe that He created all things just as He said that He did and just when He said that He did.

For in six days God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. I believe that because I believe in a being who knows all things. One who was there when the foundations of the world were established. I believe that God cannot lie. While I have entertained the ideas that are bantered about that we can't really be sure what God meant to say when He used the word 'yom' in the Genesis account. We can't really be sure when 'the beginning' that is written about in the first words of the Scriptures, was. But then I get to the law. The words that weren't transcribed or written by inspired Holy men as they were led by the Spirit. Words that the Scriptures tell us were actually written on the face of the stone tablets by the hand of God, and God wrote: For in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that were in them. I believe that!

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again knightstemplar,

I won't bore you guys anymore with my 'foolishness' but...

I believe in the power, authority, omniscience and omnipotence of God as it is described in the Scriptures. I believe that if for some purpose of God's plan, He would want the earth to exist outside of the orbit of Pluto, and yet all mankind still live and breathe just as they do today...I believe that He can do that. For with God, all things are possible. We live in a created realm for which God has established certain laws for this created realm to endure day after day, season after season, year after year. However, when God steps in and does things within His created realm, all bets laid on the natural properties of things being the way things have to work because science says so...go out the window.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted