Creation and the Big Bang

[JYJ]

They are one in the same. God created in a moment of brilliance and the physical universe began it's existence. God then installed what we call evolution as His means of insuring that the beginnings would continue to grow and change and that, in the far future, a form would be suitable for the human souls which awaited.

So, you see, the second law of thermodynamics falls short of being any sort of argument against evolution. The reason? God's intelligent design. This is the driving force behind evolution if we could only set aside the parable story that is Genesis. So much of the Old Testament is already set aside. Why do we cling to Genesis as though it were a fount of wisdom when we totally ignore so much of Deuteronomy and Leviticus for instance?

Some day perhaps. Some day. In the meanwhile we will have to continue the bickering and insisting that only WE are correct and science is wrong.

Pitiable.... Especially since God couldn't care less what we believe and is only interested in how we treat each other.

Will "creationists" please tell me why this idea is so impossible and why the story in Genesis is taken so seriously when we know full well that other parts of the OT are ignored?

Accepting Christ as savior is nothing whatever to do with acceptance of Genesis. What has "born again" and "being saved" to do with believing Genesis anyway? Doesn't make sense.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Probably more appropriate for the physical sciences forum but I do agree.

 

[JYJ]

I wondered about that but I do not consider creation to be science. Philosophy seems less inflammatory.

I was raised Catholic. Maybe that's why I feel this way.

 

[juvenissun]

They are one in the same. God created in a moment of brilliance and the physical universe began it's existence. God then installed what we call evolution as His means of insuring that the beginnings would continue to grow and change and that, in the far future, a form would be suitable for the human souls which awaited.

So, you see, the second law of thermodynamics falls short of being any sort of argument against evolution. The reason? God's intelligent design. This is the driving force behind evolution if we could only set aside the parable story that is Genesis. So much of the Old Testament is already set aside. Why do we cling to Genesis as though it were a fount of wisdom when we totally ignore so much of Deuteronomy and Leviticus for instance?

Some day perhaps. Some day. In the meanwhile we will have to continue the bickering and insisting that only WE are correct and science is wrong.

Pitiable.... Especially since God couldn't care less what we believe about it.

Will "creationists" please tell me why this idea is so impossible and why the story in Genesis is taken so seriously when we know full well that in the New Testament parables are common?

Accepting Christ as savior is nothing whatever to do with acceptance of Genesis. What has "born again" and "being saved" to do with believing Genesis anyway? Doesn't make sense.

The Genesis is part of God's word. We can not choose this Book to believe, and that Book to compromise His word. Believe in Jesus and Salvation will save you. Believe in Genesis will bless you more. I am not sure how would God treat you if you only think Abraham is real, but Adam is not.

Do you just want to be saved only? I don't know about you, but I want more blessings and no blame.

And, please consider a more serious possibility: many people do not believe at all because they think Genesis is false. The reason? Very simple, if one Book is wrong, how can we be sure that the other Books are right?

That is how it matters.

 

[juvenissun]

I wondered about that but I do not consider creation to be science. Philosophy seems less inflammatory.

I was raised Catholic. Maybe that's why I feel this way.

I think it is OK. We are not going to talk about science here anyway.

 

[The Nihilist]

Do you just want to be saved only? I don't know about you, but I want more blessings and no blame.

Salvation leads to communion with God, which is always complete and perfect. What, do you imagine that in heaven, only you will get ice cream because you believed in a literal interpretation of Genesis, against all common sense and evidence to the contrary?

 

[JYJ]

The Genesis is part of God's word. We can not choose this Book to believe, and that Book to compromise His word. Believe in Jesus and Salvation will save you. Believe in Genesis will bless you more. I am not sure how would God treat you if you only think Abraham is real, but Adam is not.

Do you just want to be saved only? I don't know about you, but I want more blessings and no blame.

And, please consider a more serious possibility: many people do not believe at all because they think Genesis is false. The reason? Very simple, if one Book is wrong, how can we be sure that the other Books are right?

That is how it matters.

I understand you. I also think that it is such a shame for some Christians to bring Genesis to the front burner as often as they do in asserting their faith. A little fore though and avoidance of the stand off between science and religion would result in many more converts. With such strong insistence that only (Genesis) creation is correct much negative and often derisive thought is generated. All this does the goal of saving souls no service.

Regarding validity of scripture so much can be said. There are, for instance, at least two creation stories to be read. When considered together a different scene of possibility is shown us. In KJV the two are somewhat combined but in the early, very early, writings they are not.

In the New Testament are parables so why not in the old? What do you think of this? The reason I ask you is because if read as such a different and very wonderful series of events behind Genesis is revealed. It is so powerful that we immediately see that this other view of creation, one that allows scientific understanding, is allowed. Pity. It so often seems that some Christians are intent upon suffering in their faith as though only through this is true grace possible.

Other parts of the Bible, just as in the Holy Quran, contain verses which I have NEVER heard any Christian talk about especially in advancing their faith. There is one that tells us that if a woman is not a virgin when she marries that she will be stoned to death. That one is avoided like the plague yet the meaning is clear and cannot be misinterpreted. Genesis, on the other hand, is complicated and defies the very format of God's universe as it seemingly reverses the order of things that can happen and for no reason at all. So the easy to understand is hidden away and the most difficult is given center stage yet you tell me that we must not pick and choose regarding scripture.

We Muslims also revere Jesus and the work of the disciples He taught. We also revere the Old Testament prophets and their histories. We also have verses which are to be wondered about in the modern world. But we understand that God is letting us know that He expects us to grow mentally as the ages pass and that our powers of discernment will assist us in seeing into scriptures and discovering the layering in meanings which is the proof of God's authorship. We also have our stories of creation which are originated in the same source as yours. Have you wondered that Islam does not seem to care about fighting science? We, in fact, from our earliest years, have advanced the requirement that humanity learn to think, study and learn as much as possible about God's works. We believe that the only way to do this is by looking at the earth without preconceived ideas clouding our view. We read Genesis and other accounts and are able to see a grand and wonderful series of events that are valid but they are nothing like the literalist will claim.

So whenever I see or hear about what the Christians, some of them, want for our kids to be taught I wonder greatly how they can be so backwards in their use of God's greatest of gifts to mankind, our minds.

Peace and Abundance of God's Light to us all

 

[bricklayer]

A quick thought on God's six day process of creation.

Time is the progressive sequential incrementation of the matter-space continuum.
Time is always a divider, a denominator. As a strictly progressive sequence, as time approaches zero, the rate increases.
The rate during those early days relative to today is a calculation beyond my abilities, but I believe that is calculable. It is certainly finite.

 

[juvenissun]

Salvation leads to communion with God, which is always complete and perfect. What, do you imagine that in heaven, only you will get ice cream because you believed in a literal interpretation of Genesis, against all common sense and evidence to the contrary?

No no. There is a "class" system in the Heaven. Some one will be more powerful and happier than some others.

 

[JYJ]

A quick thought on God's six day process of creation.

Time is the progressive sequential incrementation of the matter-space continuum.
Time is always a divider, a denominator. As a strictly progressive sequence, as time approaches zero, the rate increases.
The rate during those early days relative to today is a calculation beyond my abilities, but I believe that is calculable. It is certainly finite.

Yeah a "day" could be a zillion years but the sequence of earth first and then the other things is wrong no matter how one looks at it. Except, that primitive humans might not agree. They, in their gross ignorance, might well see the earth as being centric and thus the primary bit of creation. God knows better. Men do not. In any case I think it strange that the Jews have no problem with any of it. They don't care about teaching Biblical creation. They are not interested in contesting "evolution". Strange when you consider that it is primarily their book and it's only "borrowed" by Christians. So, what is it about Christians that Genesis is so damned crucial but other parts like all the books they decided to delete at the reformation and Deuteronomy with all it's violence is just "oops" we sort of ignore that book?

I have a theory. There are different kinds of Christians. Maybe 1000 or more sects throughout the world. I have noticed that those whose ministers are more connected with ancient Christianity (those whose wear clerical garb during services) are much less inclined to harp on the argument between creation and evolution. Those, on the other hand, whose ministers wear business suits or more casual garb do tend to make it an issue. So it almost seems that the Christians that are the furthest from Christian roots have realized that they don't have any real justification for their separation from others so they decide to be much more strict with their Bible reading and teaching to compensate for this other gap in heritage. The result is what we see now. A part of Christianity that rants continually on Genesis as though it defines their faith. In a sense it does. But do they keep it personal? No. They want to assert their views to the rest of us as though no one but them really understands.

To complicate things they mis-state, they always mis-state, and mis-define evolution. They want us to believe that evolution, the theory, includes the origins of life. It does not. Evolution only speaks of the origins of species and how they change with environments. There is no argument really between creation and evolution. None. But they cannot NOT have an issue which divides. There MUST be something that will keep the fires of division burning. There must be suffering and pain or else there can be no true faith.

God creates then evolution starts and here we are. Everything dovetails perfectly with no gaps. Everything makes perfect sense. No old Christian organizations like the Catholics or other European sects or the lutherans or the Church of England folk care. It is only those churches on the cusp of Christianity who make it such an issue. The others all know where the importance of being Christian is and they preach that. They know full well that science is the study of God's creation and let it go at that. The high Christians preach love of God without insisting that followers believe Genesis literally. they have chosen wisdom in this. The others have not.

Let me say in all honesty that while there are a couple of different sects in Islam none of them differ regarding the Quran and none would ever dare to change a word of it. In this they and the Jews are far advanced to their Christian kin.

 

[JYJ]

No no. There is a "class" system in the Heaven. Some one will be more powerful and happier than some others.

The tiered system in heaven has to do with points of advancement of souls. The concepts of power and happiness are not issues as the human aspects that value such are left behind where they belong. On the earth. Heaven is free of desire, want, vanity, greed, jealousy, power for it's own sake and all that. Each of us knows exactly who we are and each is content. The memories of when we were on earth stays with us but the earth personalities, which can be so troublesome, die with the body. Only the soul identity goes to heaven. It's "personality" is the sum total of what the earth life has learned and no more.

And, without these earthly components of our past identities, we finally see clearly and understand. This is why there are no religions in heaven. They are no longer needed.

Praise God for that.

 

[juvenissun]

I understand you. I also think that it is such a shame for some Christians to bring Genesis to the front burner as often as they do in asserting their faith. A little fore though and avoidance of the stand off between science and religion would result in many more converts. With such strong insistence that only (Genesis) creation is correct much negative and often derisive thought is generated. All this does the goal of saving souls no service.

Regarding validity of scripture so much can be said. There are, for instance, at least two creation stories to be read. When considered together a different scene of possibility is shown us. In KJV the two are somewhat combined but in the early, very early, writings they are not.

In the New Testament are parables so why not in the old? What do you think of this? The reason I ask you is because if read as such a different and very wonderful series of events behind Genesis is revealed. It is so powerful that we immediately see that this other view of creation, one that allows scientific understanding, is allowed. Pity. It so often seems that some Christians are intent upon suffering in their faith as though only through this is true grace possible.

Other parts of the Bible, just as in the Holy Quran, contain verses which I have NEVER heard any Christian talk about especially in advancing their faith. There is one that tells us that if a woman is not a virgin when she marries that she will be stoned to death.

One significant character in the Biblical creation is that it has a TIME sequence. Once time is introduced, then it can be examined by science. So, the parables in NT and the creation in OT are things of two different natures.

-----

Adultery and re-marry are two different cases.

 

[juvenissun]

The tiered system in heaven has to do with points of advancement of souls. The concepts of power and happiness are not issues as the human aspects that value such are left behind where they belong. On the earth. Heaven is free of desire, want, vanity, greed, jealousy, power for it's own sake and all that. Each of us knows exactly who we are and each is content. The memories of when we were on earth stays with us but the earth personalities, which can be so troublesome, die with the body. Only the soul identity goes to heaven. It's "personality" is the sum total of what the earth life has learned and no more.

And, without these earthly components of our past identities, we finally see clearly and understand. This is why there are no religions in heaven. They are no longer needed.

Praise God for that.

I think it is more than that. It should also be related to power (capability). Someone can do more than some others.

The only thing I am still wondering about is that if there will be anything like "promotion" in the Heaven? Of course, God is the only one who can promote, if allowed to happen.

 

[bricklayer]

Earth first? Not in the bible.
Time first, then space then matter.
Matter is that with mass.
Space is position relative to matter.
Time is the progressive sequential incrementation of the matter-space continuum.
(Noticing matter's special relativity?)

In the begining (time), God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter).
Biblical earth is mineral, material, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

No, not earth first, not that, no.

 

[JYJ]

There is much to respond to...

Science seems to have been in partnership with theology for a very long time. Some say that the three kings who followed a star were three who relied on astrology to guide them to Jesus. In those days even the Romans tempered science with godly edicts. We cannot doubt these things if we are to honor history. Later it was determined that the earth was not the center of the solar system and this certainly parted what had been a joint venture between the two.

"In the beginning God created the heaven (singular) and the earth." The narrative continues by saying that "the earth was without form and void" yet it mentions "waters" in the next sentence. Here the literalist apparently accepts that something without form can also have "waters". I do not however.

I do question the Bible but not because I doubt it. I question in order to find the hidden, greater truths which are so often not in plain sight. To do this one need not be of any particular religion but, of course, it helps if we are connected with the heritage of Abraham.

So often the stern voice of orthodoxy requires a defense posture to questions regarding scripture. This is well known. In any of the activities of humanity groups are formed. Then sub-groups and groups of sub-groups and so on. Before long thought itself becomes entrenched and defended sometimes vigorously. So seldom it is that a thinker can break the mold. Martin Luther was such a man in his day. But shall or can we dare to question "the church" today? Worse yet is knowing that a Muslim is doing just that. Our faith requires that we accept scripture only when we know in our minds and hearts that it is true.

Here, in this topic, when I talk about Genesis I do so with a spirit of reconciliation. Between believers? Of course. But also between science and theology. Is there anything more? Yes. We may reconcile also the depth of wisdom that God imparts. They need not provoke disagreement. They need not result in divisions of thought. As in any of the other human experiences God gives us the answer for all. We just have to learn to see it. This requires non-emotion so that the mind is freer to seek. Monastics have been busily at this for a very long time.

Should we do less? Is Genesis possessed of no great truth beyond the superficial and easy to see? I think it is. It is with this belief that I hope to learn more about the prophets of Judaism and Christianity.

Salaam Brothers

 

[JYJ]

I think it is more than that. It should also be related to power (capability). Someone can do more than some others.

The only thing I am still wondering about is that if there will be anything like "promotion" in the Heaven? Of course, God is the only one who can promote, if allowed to happen.

Yes in a sense that is a great truth. Jesus did say something about ye doing greater things.... (not exact quote). This is what is referred to I think.

The promotions have to do with plateaus of spiritual advancement i believe. The purpose and destiny of humanity is to progress to the point of near divinity and to eventually join with the Father. To do this we have to advance always. Cycles of learning, judging and then more learning is the way. So as time goes by we have more and more opportunities always. It never stops. Heaven is our true home. We go there to rest and assimilate now and then. Then we get back to learning.

This is not Biblical but it is what I believe.

 

[JYJ]

Earth first? Not in the bible.
Time first, then space then matter.
Matter is that with mass.
Space is position relative to matter.
Time is the progressive sequential incrementation of the matter-space continuum.
(Noticing matter's special relativity?)

In the begining (time), God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter).
Biblical earth is mineral, material, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

No, not earth first, not that, no.

"heaven and earth" first. Space? that is a presumption with which I disagree.
Heaven is heaven. The spiritual realm which is our home. Earth is earth. Space is yet another construction.

 

[juvenissun]

Earth first? Not in the bible.
Time first, then space then matter.
Matter is that with mass.
Space is position relative to matter.
Time is the progressive sequential incrementation of the matter-space continuum.
(Noticing matter's special relativity?)

In the begining (time), God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter).
Biblical earth is mineral, material, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

No, not earth first, not that, no.

Excellent.

However, one possible modification: ... Heavens (space) and the earth (our universe).

 

[juvenissun]

Yes in a sense that is a great truth. Jesus did say something about ye doing greater things.... (not exact quote). This is what is referred to I think.

The promotions have to do with plateaus of spiritual advancement i believe. The purpose and destiny of humanity is to progress to the point of near divinity and to eventually join with the Father. To do this we have to advance always. Cycles of learning, judging and then more learning is the way. So as time goes by we have more and more opportunities always. It never stops. Heaven is our true home. We go there to rest and assimilate now and then. Then we get back to learning.

This is not Biblical but it is what I believe.

You said things which is very interesting.

I agree with you. And, I can make argument to demonstrate that this understanding is Biblical. I don't believe my own interpretation. Any understanding must originated from the Scripture. I yet to find support on the highlighted idea.

I am not sure angels have chance to learn more beyond what they already know. However, since satan can learn, other angels might also be able to learn. If we still can learn in the Heaven, that would be very very interesting.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Forgive me if this sounds a bit bold, but why question the Bible at all? Science has been wrong so many times you cannot count. If you look at the history of science, it has been theology, not empirical evidence that has led us to the modern era. Science may be right about some things, but it should not try to challenge the word of God.

Here's some words:

Janie is a horse.

Can you tell me exactly what this means? Does it mean that there is an actual horse named Janie? Or am I talking about a human girl named Janie who happens to be able to run like a horse? Unless I further clarify and tell you how it should be interpreted, you can only rely on the evidence in front of you.

In the case of interpreting Genesis, we have a data mine of scientific evidence that sways many to accept a non-literal interpretation of Genesis -- and what is wrong with that? By saying "challenge the Word of God", are you placing YOUR personal interpretation on the level of God's own word?