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The Israelites already were familiar with their history. They already were at odds with mythological cosmologies. Do you not realize the Godly patriarch Joseph was barely a couple generations removed from them? The elders at that time, had parents that likely knew Joseph.
Since toledoth doesn't mean eyewitness account, it has nothing to do with how suitable they are as witnesses. To be perfectly suited for a toledoth, they don't even need to be alive at the time it was written, they just need to have descendants.Which also fits perfectly as a subscript. Naoh's sons would have been the perfect account givers for all the events from Gen. 6:9b.
Toledoth isn't confused with genealogies, that is its basic meaning. It is not just a chance association, each time we read the standard 'these are the generations of JoeBloggs', it is followed by a list of JoeBloggs' children and descendant or an account of how his children were born. What we see with Wiseman's theory is just the sort of chance association you were talking about. Of course as long as Genesis traces the origin of Israel you are going to get passages related to the person above their toledoth too. The way to test if that is a coincidence or the real meaning of toledoth is the times when Genesis leaves the story of Israel and gives the genealogies of their cousins. Each time this happens Wiseman's meaning of toledoth breaks down.You'll also find, that genealogies (not to be confused with toledoth) often appear at the front or near the front of accounts. So it's no surprise to me that in multiple toledoth that are strung together you'd have subscripts directly followed by genealogies in the following toledoth.
...Gen 6:10 And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.Gen. 6:9 This is the account of Noah.Gee, I don't see any list of descendants there.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
But it does tell you Terah's sons and his grandson Lot. Toledoth can be longer and cover multiple generation but the basic meaning is birth and comes from yalad to beget.Gen. 11:27 This is the account of Terah.Hmmm. This one doesn't have a genealogy either, just the mention of Terah's sons that then a narrative.
Terah became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran. And Haran became the father of Lot. 28 While his father Terah was still alive, Haran died in Ur of the Chaldeans, in the land of his birth.
...Gen 25:21 And Isaac prayed to the LORD for his wife, because she was barren. And the LORD granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived.Gen. 25:19 This is the account of Abrahams son Isaac.And no genealogy here either. Just the mention of only one of Abraham's sons and his age at the time he married followed by a narrative. So far your claim isn't bearing on the evidence.
Abraham became the father of Isaac, 20 and Isaac was forty years old when he married Rebekah daughter of Bethuel the Aramean from Paddan Aram and sister of Laban the Aramean.
It just tells the story of Jacob's children. Clearly toledoth is broader than a who begot whom genealogy and can include narratives of how the children were born or the narrative of the children, but each time the toledoth, a descent or birth, deals with the children the person named, down many generation or one, as a genealogical list or as a narrative, but it is always about their children. With Wiseman, any time it is possible for the the use not to fit his ideas, it doesn't.Gen. 37:2 This is the account of Jacob.Joseph, a young man of seventeen, was tending the flocks with his brothers, the sons of Bilhah and the sons of Zilpah, his fathers wives, and he brought their father a bad report about them.And strike 4. No genealogy here either. All that follows is a narrative of Joseph's life, many of the details of which, Jacob didn't have access to.
You are assuming genealogies have to follow the conventions we use in English where we normally label genealogies after the descendant rather than the ancestor. How do you know that was the labelling system used in Hebrew? You probably haven't got to it yet, but I did mention Ruth 4:18 Now these are the generations of Perez, which is preceded by the story of Ruth which Perez Judah's son was in no position to know, but is followed by a list of Perez's descendants down to David. The fact that all of the these are the generation of JoeBloggs are followed by lists of Joe's descendants or the stories of his children shows us the Hebrew convention for naming genealogies was very different.And then when you apply the fact that genealogies are lists of ancestors and not descendants actually none of them work. If I told you I wanted you to take a look at my genealogy, what would expect to see? A tree of my ancestors? Or a tree of my descendants?
Indeed Wiseman's claim fail every time they they weren't able to work just by chance.Case closed.
No I was saying if you have a text that is about someone, the genealogy will be named after them whether it is a list of ancestors or a list of the person's descendants. Matthew names his list of descent ending in Jesus 'the book of the generation of Jesus', where as in the Da Vinci Code (It appears you've gone from the toledoth being "about" the named individual which didn't work out, to a "genealogy" of the named individual, which also doesn't work out. Either you need a new theory or come on board with me on this one.
Apart from all the places Wiseman's idea doesn't work.But this truly has been part of the stumbling block of the toledoth for so long. Traditional structures just don't seem to work. But when we realize toledoth is not a term for genealogies all all, and that these are concluding remarks (per ancient structures) rather than introductory remarks (per less ancient structures), suddenly all the problems disappear. A toledoth could start with a genealogy, or it could start with a narrative. No more confusion.
I wouldn't have a problem with account or record as a broader meaning of toledoth, though each time these are the generation of is used it is followed either by the genealogical list of their descendants or an account of their children. An account is certainly the broader meaning in Gen 2:4, (unless you want to read evolutionary meaning into the toledothNow Wiseman, to his credit, put forth this hypothesis that toledoth did not mean genealogies, but rather accounts, chronicles, histories, records, etc. And at the time he actually received very broad support from scholars. They are listed in his book (which I linked a few posts back). And in fact most modern dictionaries will affirm those translation options.
For instance, KM Hebrew Dictionary: account, record, genealogy, family line.
Strongs also lists history within its range of meanings.
But I don't think the translation generations ever works, frankly, in Genesis. Nor does genealogy. A genealogy can be in a toledoth, but a toledoth is not a genealogy.
As you can see in the examples above, most of the primary toledoth in Genesis are not followed by genealogies. (Unless of course you're going to change the definition of a genealogy, but hopefully you wont go there)
That is simply an artefact of the long lifespans in Genesis where you want to claim authorship, or that people mentioned further down the text in Genesis usually lived later so you can always say they could have got their hands on earlier documents. But there is simply no basis for the claim that this is what toledoth means.But what does work in every case (as Wiseman to his credit pointed out) is the author/owner theory. In every case it works out perfectly. All the named author/owners were either eyewitnesses to their account, or had access to eyewitnesses to their account. Adam was a contemporary to the events in his toledoth. Noah was a contemporary to the events in his. Shem, Ham and Japheth were contemporaries to all the events in there toledoth. Now in their case, we don't know which particular sections they each recorded. Seems more likely Japheth or Shem handled the part regarding Ham's sin. Regardless, Shem would have been a perfect account giver of the Table of Nations and Babel accounts, given is long lifespan after the Flood. And both Isaac and Jacob would have had access to direct witnesses of all the events in their toledoth.
Or there could be more documents and sections of documents making up Genesis than the ones marked by toledoth, or the Joseph section. Even if Wiseman were right, you would only get a colophon or subscript included if the whole document all the way down to the end was inserted in a particular place. If the editor chose part of a document that covered the area he was dealing with there, then the subscript would be left out.Now the only question is, why is there no toledoth subscript for Joseph? Wiseman had his own theories, but I think the simple answer may be, writing structures were different in Egypt. They may have used different methods and employed different structures. Scholars have noticed some egyptian attributes in this particular section, and I think it simply was a case in which there was no subscript included, and therefore Moses simply didn't know who the author was.
The Bible covers a great deal of time and therefore we should expect to see structural changes as we progress through the book.
It's this kind of silliness that just wants to make me roll my eyes and walk away, since you don't even put a little bit of critical thought into your claims.
The Israelites were in slavery for 400 years. That's not "barely a couple of generations." That's more like 15-20 generations. 400 years is about how long ago the first European settlers came and settled at Plymouth Rock. Honestly, that's about 10% of the time that has passed since Moses was on the earth. 20% of the time since Christ.
It's not an insignificant amount of time.
Sorry, but I just don't have time or energy to unravel all of this silliness.
It's this kind of silliness that just wants to make me roll my eyes and walk away, since you don't even put a little bit of critical thought into your claims.
The Israelites were in slavery for 400 years. That's not "barely a couple of generations." That's more like 15-20 generations. 400 years is about how long ago the first European settlers came and settled at Plymouth Rock. Honestly, that's about 10% of the time that has passed since Moses was on the earth. 20% of the time since Christ.
It's not an insignificant amount of time.
Sorry, but I just don't have time or energy to unravel all of this silliness.
Now I appreciate confidence, but arrogance mixed with ignorance is never a good combo.
No, MM, the Israelites were not enslaved 400 years. Oy! How do people argue so passionately about a book they're so unfamiliar with?
Seriously, read the book of Genesis. Find some timeline charts perhaps. Study a little. Then come back and make your case.
Okay, so you actually think Moses and Joseph were separated by 400 years. Where to begin.
Just some tidbits of information. 1) The prophesy was not about the Israelites but Abraham's descendants starting with Isaac. Last I check neither he nor Jacob were enslaved. 2) The prophesy was a foretelling of wandering + slavery. 3) Jospeh died just 144 years before the Exodus. 4) And Moses was born just 64 years after Joseph died. (Uh, yeah, maybe walking away at this point would be a good idea.)
Yes Muzic Man, some of the elders of Moses time, had parents that knew Joseph.
I realize we all step in it at times. If you weren't so arrogant I'd be less inclined to tease you.
I've looked up some info on this, and it seems they were possibly there for 210 years......
If you google genealogy of (famous historical figure) you will find that genealogies run both way showing their ancestors as well as descendants. Of course the most common English usage is where people want to research their genealogy and find out who their ancestors were, but the common English usage does not tell you the semantic range of a Hebrew word that shares a some common meaning.Assyrian, what you're doing is changing the definition of genealogy to the mere mention of a son, followed by a narrative. I'm sorry, that's just not convincing to me at all. That's not what genealogies are. Genealogies are lists of ancestors.
Have you read any Hebrew Lexicons to see what they say? Here is how BDB gives the meaning of toledoth:You're going round and round with the same arguments. The genealogy argument falls flat. Toledoth are not genealogies. They can contain genealogies, but narratives as well.
Wiseman's wishful thinking is claiming these accounts were originally written or owned by the people named. There is simply nothing in the idea of a genealogy of someone, or an account of them and their descendant's history, to suggest they wrote or owned the original text. There is nothing in the text of Genesis to suggest these people wrote or owned the toledoth mentioned in the text, that they owned any books tablets or scrolls at all, or could even write. Not only does this mean there is no evidence for Wiseman's claim, the lack of mention of books and writing in Genesis is in sharp contrast to the preoccupation with books and writing we see in the bible starting in Exodus.Now you accused Wiseman of wishful thinking. I think trying to force a genealogy definition onto toledoth is wishful thinking.
It has been good talking with you CalWe're going to just have to disagree on this.
If you google genealogy of (famous historical figure) you will find that genealogies run both way showing their ancestors as well as descendants. Of course the most common English usage is where people want to research their genealogy and find out who their ancestors were, but the common English usage does not tell you the semantic range of a Hebrew word that shares a some common meaning.
Hi guys,
I'm curious about the timeline that is being discussed here. According to the account of the Exodus in chapter 12:40, God's word says that the Israelites lived in Egypt for 430 years. so, I'm curious how these timelines of 160 years from Joseph to Moses, and others, have come about and what is the research that supports these things.
I apologize in advance if I've missed something in all the previous posts and I will go back and look over them.
God bless.
In Christ, Ted
You are still thinking of the English word genealogy. You need to keep two things in mind here. First is that the Hebrew term comes from the word yalad meaning to beget, so the meaning of someone's children is actually closer to root meaning of toledoth. Then you have to consider that words in a language can have a wider meaning and usage than one simple concept. Just look at the range of meanings of the Hebrew word adm, we have red, blush, dye red, man, mankind, Adam, a city in the Jordan valley, Edom, a ruby or carnelian.We disagree.
The idea that a mention of a son followed by a narrative is somehow a genealogy is, by definition, 'wishful thinking.' (maybe even desperate thinking).
The problem is his theory doesn't work. It fails much too often the standard meaning of toledoth works much better.We actually owe a great debt of gratitude to Wiseman for clearing up centuries of confusion reading Genesis under a title oriented frame of reference (and yes the scholars are among those that have been confused also). This is what's lead to the confusion about genealogies and many other things. But logic wins out every time (among the logical). It just takes time for thinking paradigm changes to unfold. Wiseman hit on something that almost no one noticed. I sure didn't noticed it until the theory was suggested to me.
You are still thinking of the English word genealogy....
Not an account of another topic written by the person named, or an account of something else owned by the person named, but an account of that person and their children. That is not very far semantically from a list of that person and their children and their children's children that form the genealogies in the bible. In fact even the genealogies with long lists of who begot whom, throw in scatterings of biographical accounts in the list.No, Assyrian, it's simple logic. A genealogy is not a mention of a son and then a narrative. (and it some cases there's not even a mention of a son). All that is is an account, and that's exactly what I believe toledoth areaccounts. In essence you're agreeing with me that that ancient word genealogy means account in modern terms.
Well the Lexicons wouldn't use the word genealogy unless it was very close in concept to the meaning of toledoth, and, given how much you dislike the description, the meaning of toledoth is closer to genealogy than your understanding of it. Most bibles follow the AV's use of 'generations' even though we don't use the word that way in ordinary English, It still conveys the concept of listing the people in different generations in the family, what we would call a family tree or genealogy. Interestingly the NASB uses 'the records of the generations' in Genesis, and 'their genealogical registration' in Numbers.You can quote scholars and dictionaries to your heart's content about the ancient word genealogy and how it differs with the modern word. But in essence that makes my point for me. The english modern genealogy is the wrong word for toledoth.
Have you addressed Numbers and Ruth?Now you keep posting the same arguments over and over, but I've addressed them in detail. Toledoth are not genealogies as we understand the term today. It is a word that merely means histories, chronicles or accounts.
But I respect your opinion, and agree to disagree.
Not an account of another topic written by the person named, or an account of something else owned by the person named, but an account of that person and their children. That is not very far semantically from a list of that person and their children and their children's children that form the genealogies in the bible. In fact even the genealogies with long lists of who begot whom, throw in scatterings of biographical accounts in the list.
Have you addressed Numbers and Ruth?
IOW' toledoth are accounts. Accounts often are about family members. I'm becoming even more convinced of my position.
Different era, perhaps different writing structures. I have really looked into it.
Sounds like you have a bad case of confirmation bias there Cal. Toledoth is used throughout the OT for genealogical registers. It not that toledoth are, vaguely, 'often about family members', the toledoth of people in Genesis is followed by the genealogical list of their descendants or the account of the children. You have to make it vague and wooly to try to fit Wiseman's claim and even then you get completely the wrong accounts like Isaac and Ishmael or Jacob and Esau.IOW' toledoth are accounts. Accounts often are about family members. I'm becoming even more convinced of my position.
Isn't it odd that toledoth went on to mean genealogical accounts when that is the meaning you think it couldn't possibly have in Genesis?Different era, perhaps different writing structures. I have really looked into it.
Account is one of many definitions of the word, but I don't understand why "records of generations" cannot be used, because that's exactly what they are.
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