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Creation and Causality

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It seems that one reason for the breakdown in communication between Christians and atheists is that each side is playing a different game in the same conversation. As a skeptic, the atheist's goal is to refute bad explanations, even if that means there is no explanation left to choose from. Conversely, the Christian's goal is to make an inference to the best explanation available, even if it is problematic. So when the atheist says "prove it" and the Christian can't, the atheist claims victory; and when the atheist says "I don't know" the Christian claims victory.

However, I'm convinced that the Christian position is so weak, particularly on the topic of creation and causality, that the atheist can play the Christian's game and still win.

While the skeptical atheist's actual position is "I don't know" when it comes to unresolved cosmic questions, let's nevertheless saddle the atheist with something so that they are playing the Christian version of the game. For simplicity, we will burden the atheist with the position that reality is as follows: The universe is a finitely large hypersphere of the smallest possible size that is consistent with the observation that the universe is strictly larger than the observable universe. Further, the bulk space, which is the space wherein the multiverse resides, does not exist. All that is, was, or ever will be is just our universe. So it is being said that something has come from nothing for no reason and with no cause.

The Christian position seems to be this: God created the universe (and also other realms beyond the universe) out of nothing by speaking such things into existence. I do not know of any explanation that is more specific than this.

So which is a better explanation?

As I understand it, this would be the typical Christian assessment of the atheist's position:

It is nonsensical to assert that the universe exists for no reason and with no cause. Something cannot come from nothing.

The problems with this assessment are, first, that the Christian tacitly asserts that God exists for no reason and with no cause, which is the special pleading fallacy. Identifying the fallacy is already sufficient grounds to ignore the rebuttal until it is amended, but it can also be said that the second objection is inadequate. We have not, and presumably cannot, observe nothingness, so there are no empirical grounds to say what can or cannot occur. Further, we know that nothingness entails a complete lack of rules or governing principles, so the governing principle "something cannot come from nothing" cannot apply to nothingness by definition. This point was made to Dr. William Lane Craig, and he responded with, "Then why aren't we seeing tricycles popping into existence randomly?" The answer, of course, is that empty space is not nothingness and so any expectation we might have about nothingness is irrelevant—in fact, Craig should be well aware of this because he has criticized Dr. Lawrence Krauss for equivocating empty space with nothingness. Let me clarify, though, that I'm not positively claiming that something definitely can come from nothingness, but rather that it cannot be ruled out.

The real reason that "nothing cannot come from something" is asserted presumably relates to the issue of causality. With regards to nothingness, there is nothing that can cause anything to occur; on the other hand, if a God exists, however inexplicable his existence may be, then there is at least an agent that can cause something to occur. This is, I believe, why Christians think that God is the best explanation for the existence of the universe.

However, this is not how causality works. An agent performing the causal influence is only half of what we would call an event that involves causality. There must also be a thing that is acted on; otherwise there is no effect. Billiard balls are often used as an example of causality, but a billiard ball flying through empty space devoid of interaction is not causing anything to occur. Another billiard ball is required for causality to have meaning because there is no cause without something that gets effected.

Absent creation, when the sum total of all existence was just the Christian God, what was available for God to act upon? Did God act on himself? Then we are all made of the stuff of God, and I don't think Christians take this position. Did God act on the universe before the universe even existed? How does that make sense? Did God act on nothingness? Nothingness is not a thing that can be acted on, and "acting on nothingness" is the same as acting on nothing, which is the same as doing nothing, which is the same as not causing anything to occur. God himself, nothing, and the universe itself seem to be the only conceivable choices of what we can even discuss as candidates for what God acted on, and none of them work.

Here are two definitions of causality that I know of:

PHYSICS

A system is a region of space.

A state is the arrangement of matter and energy in a system.

Causality is the process by which a system transitions from one state to another over a period of time.

ANTIQUITY

Aristotle proposed four causes, two of which are relevant here: efficient cause and material cause. For a marble statue, the material cause would be a marble slab, and the efficient cause would be the sculptor or the chisel. Causality requires both the efficient cause and the material cause. A causal event lacking one or the other is impossible to even describe.


You are free to come up with another definition of causality, so long as it models reality as we know it. The Christian's task is to think up a form of causality which is consistent with both what we observe in reality and also creation out of nothing. As far as I can see, this is impossible. It must be said that God's creation event did not involve causality, and that is extremely problematic to Christianity. Allow me to explain.

First, why is it that God's creation event did not involve causality? Well, let's consider the first model of causality. In that case, absent the universe, time does not exist and thus causality trivially does not exist by definition. If you want to posit the existence of some extra dimension of time that envelopes the universe, and that God performed an action of causality in that dimension of time, then that only pushes the problem back a step. At some point, if God is indeed creating everything out of nothing, there is a creation event where God creates time itself and this action is necessarily absent of causality under the first definition. Under the second model of causality, creation out of nothing is impossible by definition because there is no material cause.

Note that I am assuming God's omnipotence is limited to that which is logically possible, so I am talking about a God that cannot create a square circle or a one-ended stick. If you do believe that God can perform logically impossible tasks, then you must explain why God did not simply forgive us all as an act of will instead of sending his son to die, because God could have forgiven us all as an act of will even if it is impossible to do so. Right? Theologically, the only Christian God that makes sense is one that is unable to perform logically impossible tasks. I know that the "theory" of atonement is quite off topic, but it is a central issue of Christian theology and I cannot simply allow Christians to start a fire there just to put out a fire here.

Now, I did say above that I am not ruling out the possibility of something coming from nothing. Which is to say that I am not ruling out the possibility of things coming into existence by some means other than causality. So it then follows that God could have also used some means independent of causality to create the universe. The problem here, though, is that we have no way of explaining what that entails, and there are absolutely no grounds to say that God is necessary for the process. If the Big Bang was not caused, why is God needed? Even given unlimited power, it is impossible to describe how God could create something without invoking causality just like it is impossible to describe how God and his unlimited power could create a square circle.

So why did I say in the beginning that the atheist can play the Christian's game and win? It's because the Christian's explanation for the origin of the universe is necessarily worse. The Christian cannot account for God's existence (because God exists for no reason and with no cause), then insists that God is necessary for creation to occur, yet cannot explain, even given God's unlimited power, exactly why God is necessary for the process or what God did. While the atheist is saddled with the argument here that the universe exists for no reason and with no cause, the Christian—whether or not they know it themselves, and whether or not they want you to know it—asserts that God exists for no reason and with no cause, and that he, without the invocation of causality, spoke the universe into existence, which is to say that the universe exists for no reason and with no cause.

So the Christian has an extra assumption which explains nothing, and assumptions that explain nothing are supposed to be dropped. In logic, assumptions, while necessary, are a liability and should be limited to the best extent that is possible. So the Christian's argument can be improved by removing God from it, and doing so would make it effectively identical to the atheist's argument. The atheist's argument has no unnecessary components to it, and it does not make any assumptions that aren't already made by the Christian's argument. If the Christian's argument has to be improved just to be on par with the atheist's argument, then it follows that the Christian's argument is inferior to that of the atheist.
 

Starcomet

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The ex nihlo explanation is the most common creation account by most religions including the abrahamic ones. Indeed as you say it has its issues as what would have allowed God to cause the creation of something from nothing if there was nothing to create.

Such an issue does not appear if one posits that matter or energy existed at the same time as God and it shaped this according to its will as matter cannot be created or destroyed but merely altered. Emanationism also does not have this issue as there is a material cause like the first.
 
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Tayla

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As a skeptic, the atheist's goal is to refute bad explanations, even if that means there is no explanation left to choose from. Conversely, the Christian's goal is to make an inference to the best explanation available, even if it is problematic.
I think there is a more foundational dynamic at play; the assumption of materialism. But why should we assume that the only thing that exists is what we see? Did the distant faint galaxies not exist once because primitive humans couldn't see them? We should at least be open to the possibility that there is something more "out there".

An example is the subjective experience of consciousness. It is clearly not material in nature.
 
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Tinker Grey

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But why should we assume that the only thing that exists is what we see?
Why should one posit/believe things for which there is no evidence?

Did the distant faint galaxies not exist once because primitive humans couldn't see them? We should at least be open to the possibility that there is something more "out there".
Of course. I know of no non-believer that doesn't allow that there are things we haven't discovered yet. All of the scientific world, I wager, thrills to the idea that there will always be more to learn.

An example is the subjective experience of consciousness. It is clearly not material in nature.
It quite "clearly" is material in nature.
 
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Tayla

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Why should one posit/believe things for which there is no evidence?
The evidence: there is no reason to think humans have such a special role in the nature of reality that only things they can observe have existence. This is arrogance, not rationality.
 
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Tinker Grey

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The evidence: there is no reason to think humans have such a special role in the nature of reality that only things they can observe have existence. This is arrogance, not rationality.
Your evidence is evidence only of the fact that humans don't know everything. That is NOT a good reason to make things up.
 
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The ex nihlo explanation is the most common creation account by most religions including the abrahamic ones. Indeed as you say it has its issues as what would have allowed God to cause the creation of something from nothing if there was nothing to create.

Such an issue does not appear if one posits that matter or energy existed at the same time as God and it shaped this according to its will as matter cannot be created or destroyed but merely altered. Emanationism also does not have this issue as there is a material cause like the first.

Hi, thanks for your input. I am intrigued that your theology allows for this. Could you tell me what your position says regarding time? The Big Bang is our t=0 event, but there could be some ambient form of time enveloping our universe wherein a causal event precipitated the Big Bang. Do you hold that there is some kind of time that is co-eternal with God and matter/energy, or do you hold that God "created" time?
 
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I think there is a more foundational dynamic at play; the assumption of materialism.

Hi, thanks for your reply. But rational skeptics don't make this assumption.

But why should we assume that the only thing that exists is what we see? Did the distant faint galaxies not exist once because primitive humans couldn't see them? We should at least be open to the possibility that there is something more "out there".

We don't see radio waves, but they exist. Either this is a straw man, or else by "But why should we assume that the only thing that exists is what we see?" you really meant "But why should we assume that the only thing that exists is what we can detect?"

But again, even with this correction, no such assumption is being made. Perhaps there are some atheists who say this, but as far as I know that's not the typical position of the rational skeptic. It cannot be shown that such things don't exist, so it shouldn't be said that they definitively don't exist.

It would only be stated that such things don't exist in the context of the null hypothesis. For example, I could say, "Adding racing stripes to my car won't make it go faster." I could say this without having even done the tests to confirm it. But this is academic, technical jargon. In common terms, we would say that there is no reason to believe that the racing stripes would have any effect on speed, so we lack the corresponding belief. Nothing is being declared as an actual fact.

An example is the subjective experience of consciousness. It is clearly not material in nature.

If you think that atheists have developed an entire worldview without taking consciousness into account, then you obviously aren't listening to them and aren't interested in a genuine conversation. Also, you haven't remarked on anything in the OP but rather derailed everything with this tangent. Let me know in a year or so if your outlook has changed.
 
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Starcomet

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Hi, thanks for your input. I am intrigued that your theology allows for this. Could you tell me what your position says regarding time? The Big Bang is our t=0 event, but there could be some ambient form of time enveloping our universe wherein a causal event precipitated the Big Bang. Do you hold that there is some kind of time that is co-eternal with God and matter/energy, or do you hold that God "created" time?

The origin of time is a difficult matter to truly ascertain. It could be argued that there was no time before the Big Bang, but I believe it is possible time coexisted with God in the beginning like matter. I have not given it must though however and must ponder this more.
 
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apogee

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Thanks for the OP NV, I really want to engage with it but there is just so many tangents that I'm struggling to pick one.

Perhaps I should start with one of my favourites, 'Square circles' aka 'cylinders' although I quite like the 'one ended sticks' aka 'tree branches'...

What is the actual question here?
 
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jacks

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Interesting OP, thank you.

We may have more in common than you thought. I would say it's not just a skeptical atheists position to be "I don't know". Assuming that your definition of "Knowing" is verifiable proof. Assuming that your definition of "Verifiable" is repeatable and measurable. Assuming that your definition of "Proof" is unarguable conclusions. Assuming....

We all gather input throughout our lives, through various filters, which make up our mercurial belief systems. There is no logical argument or series of explanations that is going to change everyones mind; no matter how well referenced or beautifully articulated.

BTW If I may, I believe Jesus316 was making reference to the sentiment expressed in 2 Corinthians 4:18.
"Things that are seen don't last forever, but things that are not seen are eternal. This is why we keep our minds on the things that cannot be seen. " The idea, that the universe operates beyond our senses and that the truly important aspects are spiritual and unverifiable on a physical plane.

I'm sure we are all aware of everything I've said, and you're right there is often a breakdown in communication. However, the solution can't be to "refute bad explanations", rather to make sure we are even talking about the same level of abstraction.

Oh and to answer your question "God's creation event did not involve causality?"

I don't know.:)
 
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The origin of time is a difficult matter to truly ascertain. It could be argued that there was no time before the Big Bang, but I believe it is possible time coexisted with God in the beginning like matter. I have not given it must though however and must ponder this more.

I think you have a problem on your hands either way.
 
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Thanks for the OP NV, I really want to engage with it but there is just so many tangents that I'm struggling to pick one.

No, there is only one focus in the OP: that God cannot have caused the universe to exist.

Perhaps I should start with one of my favourites, 'Square circles' aka 'cylinders' although I quite like the 'one ended sticks' aka 'tree branches'...

A cylinder is not a square circle. Whatever a square circle is, we know it's two dimensional and therefore not a three-dimensional object.

A cylinder could produce a rectangle or a circle as a shadow, but that doesn't mean it's a rectangular circle. If that's what you're going for, there is a world of counter-examples to prove you wrong. If you're saying that a cylinder is the object formed by an arrangement of squares whose bottom edges are all possible lines parallel to a diameter, then we're pretty far from talking about a square circle.

Trivially, you could make a square circle by creating a square, designating any arbitrary interior point X as the center, and then saying that d(X,Y)=d(X,Z) for all points Y and Z on the square. The only problem is that this would mean that distance is a strange notion, and this is not what's meant by a square circle. Neither is what you said.

Same goes for your tree branch remark.

What is the actual question here?

The actual question here is, "Did you read the OP?"
 
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Moral Orel

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Absent creation, when the sum total of all existence was just the Christian God, what was available for God to act upon? Did God act on himself? Then we are all made of the stuff of God, and I don't think Christians take this position.
Not that I'm equipped to take this very far, because I don't understand it really myself. But I think that this is actually what classical theism states. That God is existence itself. So God would be the sculptor and the marble. Some theist who knows more can take this and run with it. I noticed how quickly you glazed over this idea, NV, I think it might be the weakest point in your argument. Though Admiral Ackbar might have something to say about me noticing that...
 
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Not that I'm equipped to take this very far, because I don't understand it really myself. But I think that this is actually what classical theism states. That God is existence itself. So God would be the sculptor and the marble. Some theist who knows more can take this and run with it. I noticed how quickly you glazed over this idea, NV, I think it might be the weakest point in your argument. Though Admiral Ackbar might have something to say about me noticing that...

Hmmm... this would mean that the profane is divine, that the natural is supernatural, and that the unholy is holy. I do not think theology takes this seriously. It would mean that you are God, or made of God, as am I, as is a dung beetle's dinner. It would not only mean that God actually can look upon sin, but that God *is* sin. This position seems to me to be so blasphemous that Christians are forbidden to even consider it, so professing it is out of the question.

Then again, I'm sure we've both seen our share of crazy here so maybe you've come across someone pitching this idea.
 
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Moral Orel

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Hmmm... this would mean that the profane is divine, that the natural is supernatural, and that the unholy is holy. I do not think theology takes this seriously. It would mean that you are God, or made of God, as am I, as is a dung beetle's dinner. It would not only mean that God actually can look upon sin, but that God *is* sin. This position seems to me to be so blasphemous that Christians are forbidden to even consider it, so professing it is out of the question.

Then again, I'm sure we've both seen our share of crazy here so maybe you've come across someone pitching this idea.
I thought of the same kinds of implications too. Like I said, there might be a good defense for all that, but I don't know it. Silmarian mentioned it to me recently, and Zippy before that. Lord knows how long your ignore list is, so you don't see as much as I do, since my list is empty.

Mostly, I think that fundamentally it would mean that God changed, wouldn't it? He was spirit, and now he's matter and energy... I dunno. I'm just trying to stir stuff up in your thread :)
 
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apogee

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No, there is only one focus in the OP: that God cannot have caused the universe to exist.

Oh ok, thanks for the considerably diminished word count. I'll have a think and get back.

A cylinder is not a square circle. Whatever a square circle is, we know it's two dimensional and therefore not a three-dimensional object.

A cylinder could produce a rectangle or a circle as a shadow, but that doesn't mean it's a rectangular circle. If that's what you're going for, there is a world of counter-examples to prove you wrong. If you're saying that a cylinder is the object formed by an arrangement of squares whose bottom edges are all possible lines parallel to a diameter, then we're pretty far from talking about a square circle.

Trivially, you could make a square circle by creating a square, designating any arbitrary interior point X as the center, and then saying that d(X,Y)=d(X,Z) for all points Y and Z on the square. The only problem is that this would mean that distance is a strange notion, and this is not what's meant by a square circle. Neither is what you said.

I love this problem, unfortunately squares and circles only exist in a two dimensional universe, like South Park. So whilst square circles definitely do appear to exist in our universe, two dimensional objects do not appear to exist outside of your imagination. Despite your meaningless equation.


Same goes for your tree branch remark.
was this a semantic problem?



The actual question here is, "Did you read the OP?"
Three times
 
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Moral Orel

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although I quite like the 'one ended sticks' aka 'tree branches'...
NV skimmed over this bit, but the branch ends at both ends. At some point it's the trunk of the tree, and not the branch. Even if the whole tree is a stick, it ends at the roots.
 
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Moral Orel

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I love this problem, unfortunately squares and circles only exist in a two dimensional universe, like South Park. So whilst square circles definitely do appear to exist in our universe, two dimensional objects do not appear to exist outside of your imagination. Despite your meaningless equation.
Can God create in a two dimensional space? There's no logical necessity for us to have anything more than length and width. So, if He can create in two dimensional space, can He create a square circle in two dimensional space? It's a question of what God can do, not what God did do.
 
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apogee

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NV skimmed over this bit, but the branch ends at both ends. At some point it's the trunk of the tree, and not the branch. Even if the whole tree is a stick, it ends at the roots.
No shoot sherlock. it's a semantic problem, that is inherently meaningless, and therefore requires a semantic answer that is equally meaningless.
 
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