Creation, An Exposition of Genesis and the New Testament Witness

[mark kennedy]

It shows what Augustine believed and that it is different that what you claimed.

What Augustine believed is what he believed, that's not always the same thing as what the Scriptures say. I remember trying to read his metaphysics on Genesis one and he lost me at the first turn. He was a pretty complicated thinker, loved his defense again Pelagianism. On the doctrine of creation he kind of loses me, I'm not your best source for Augustine, that much is sure.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Sanoy]

I came to the same conclusion about day 4 as you as I was going through Genesis with a mind to the geological and biological time line. Day 4 has always troubled people, but I think it is due to the ordering. If we start with the purpose it makes the event make more sense.

Purpose. - let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years...
Action - Coming of the Luminaries known as the Sun, moon and stars.

This verse fits the Geological time line. Before this day the sun and the moon were not the sun and the moon we know now. The sun was much dimmer and smaller, and the moon was much larger in appearance. The day was shorter as well. The sun grew in size and brightness to a point. The moon, which was responsible for the shorter day moved away from the earth until it reached a resonance giving us our 24hr day. On day 4, God accomplishes their purpose.

 

[mark kennedy]

I came to the same conclusion about day 4 as you as I was going through Genesis with a mind to the geological and biological time line. Day 4 has always troubled people, but I think it is due to the ordering. If we start with the purpose it makes the event make more sense.

Purpose. - let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years...
Action - Coming of the Luminaries known as the Sun, moon and stars.

This verse fits the Geological time line. Before this day the sun and the moon were not the sun and the moon we know now. The sun was much dimmer and smaller, and the moon was much larger in appearance. The day was shorter as well. The sun grew in size and brightness to a point. The moon, which was responsible for the shorter day moved away from the earth until it reached a resonance giving us our 24hr day. On day 4, God accomplishes their purpose.

The way I see it God's work on the firmament, actually the atmosphere was how the sun, moon and stars became regularly visible from the surface of the earth. Originally the earth was covered in water and thick clouds, clouds so thick the earth was in utter darkness. By day 4 God is making the final touches on the firmament.

 

[Sanoy]

The way I see it God's work on the firmament, actually the atmosphere was how the sun, moon and stars became regularly visible from the surface of the earth. Originally the earth was covered in water and thick clouds, clouds so thick the earth was in utter darkness. By day 4 God is making the final touches on the firmament.

Yeah it could be that too. There is definitely this sense of the luminaries coming into view. There are also several world wide myths that talk of a "twilight" time (Berossus) before man, or a time where the sun was smaller or less in light (Jaguar sun).

 

[Speedwell]

Yeah it could be that too. There is definitely this sense of the luminaries coming into view. There are also several world wide myths that talk of a "twilight" time (Berossus) before man, or a time where the sun was smaller or less in light (Jaguar sun).

You remind me of how little I know about "paleo-climatology" as to whether there were extended periods in which the Earth was encased in a permanent cloud, rather like Venus is now.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yeah it could be that too. There is definitely this sense of the luminaries coming into view. There are also several world wide myths that talk of a "twilight" time (Berossus) before man, or a time where the sun was smaller or less in light (Jaguar sun).

It seems to me the sun moon and stars were fully formed and had been, perhaps for billions of years. Always thought day four was a fine tuning or the firmament. Everything from verse two is from the surface of the earth.

 

[mark kennedy]

It's been a while since I started this thread, thought I'd bump it to see if anyone is interested.

 

[mark kennedy]

Fine, assume for the moment that we take it "literally" or "historically." But what is a "day"? What are beasts "of the field"? What about arboreal creatures? How do we know how to take these things "literally"?

Suppose I'm not arguing against taking this "literally" but I want to know what "literally" or "historically" means. What would you tell me?

When I bumped this thread it looked like I never got around to this one, guess I was busy with other posts. I'm not sure I understand the questions but the meaning of 'day' appears to be a normal 24 hour day. It's accentuated by the phrase 'evening and morning' and the fact that they are numbered.

Now as far as the beasts of the field, I always took that to mean your basic wildlife, I suspect it means predators and herds. I really don't know about arboreal exactly, do you mean tree dwelling creatures like birds and monkeys? If you would like to elaborate I'm interested.

 

[archer75]

When I bumped this thread it looked like I never got around to this one, guess I was busy with other posts. I'm not sure I understand the questions but the meaning of 'day' appears to be a normal 24 hour day. It's accentuated by the phrase 'evening and morning' and the fact that they are numbered.

Now as far as the beasts of the field, I always took that to mean your basic wildlife, I suspect it means predators and herds. I really don't know about arboreal exactly, do you mean tree dwelling creatures like birds and monkeys? If you would like to elaborate I'm interested.

Regarding the arboreal animals - yeah, we read about the beasts of the field. If we're being so literal, what about non-field animals?

As to the day, you're right - but the super-literalists say EXACTLY 24 hours. Why? That's a rounded average. The solar day varies in length. So how long were the days? I need an answer accurate to the microsecond, or I can't evaluate literalist claims.

 

[mark kennedy]

Regarding the arboreal animals - yeah, we read about the beasts of the field. If we're being so literal, what about non-field animals?

As to the day, you're right - but the super-literalists say EXACTLY 24 hours. Why? That's a rounded average. The solar day varies in length. So how long were the days? I need an answer accurate to the microsecond, or I can't evaluate literalist claims.

I'm still puzzled, there are birds, things that creep upon the ground, short legs I think.

I don't have an answer to the microsecond, I have no idea what you mean. Day means day in the Genesis account, it's not that hard to find that.

 

[archer75]

I'm still puzzled, there are birds, things that creep upon the ground, short legs I think.

I don't have an answer to the microsecond, I have no idea what you mean. Day means day in the Genesis account, it's not that hard to find that.

Sorry about my tone there. I had misremembered this thread.

Re: day - 'day' in English has more than one meaning. A unit of about 24 hours, but also 'in my day...' - a much longer period of time. There is more than one sense of 'day'.

I guess I still fail to see why the length of time is so crucial when there were no people yet to experience time as we do...

 

[rjs330]

Sorry about my tone there. I had misremembered this thread.

Re: day - 'day' in English has more than one meaning. A unit of about 24 hours, but also 'in my day...' - a much longer period of time. There is more than one sense of 'day'.

I guess I still fail to see why the length of time is so crucial when there were no people yet to experience time as we do...

This is where context helps right? Day is defined in the passages as "and the evening and morning were the --- day."

This is further defined by God in Exodus as a regular day when he says he wants his people to rest on the 7th day and work on six days like he did.