Creating a New Nation! The New C.S.A. (2)

Nathan Poe · Mar 17, 2008

PassionFruit said:
Now that makes me wonder, shellfish is considered an abomination, I'm wondering if Shield would ban shellfish, if so, would he put people to death for eating shellfish?

Ah, but I highly doubt that SoF was accosted by a shellfish when he was five years old.

ShieldOFaith · Mar 17, 2008

Nathan Poe said:
All we need to do is show your rantings for the psychosis they are -- anyone who plans to climb to heaven on a mountain of corpses is clearly mad.

I don't think you read this. Here it is again.

Yes, we are all sinners. Hence the doctrine of Original Sin. However, that is why Messiah came down and died on the cross and rose up the third day. He now can cleanse you of your sins and make you Born Again (John 3). When you become born again, GOD makes you a new creature and you have the Holy Spirit of God living inside you!

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. --2 Cor. 5

If we are born again and are a new creature we now can live by the Spirit of GOD.

<NOW PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE TRY TO GRASP THIS>

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,* who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, --Romans 8[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]AWESOME!!! [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]So if we live by the Spirit and walk in the Spirit, we will not be running around murdering, raping, kidnapping...ect..[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]<READ AND UNDERSTAND>[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. --Galatians 5[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]YEEHAH!!! NOW DO YOU GET IT???[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]In a Christian Nation filled with Christians, we would not need to be hanging everybody!!! HELLO!

This is what I've been saying all along. In a country like the C.S.A. there would be no great need for mass executions. There would be very little crime. There would be no need for all of your "Nazi" fantasies.

ALL THE PEOPLE WHO KEEP COMPARING THE C.S.A. TO NAZI GERMANY ARE COMPLETELY WRONG AND HAVE NOT READ THESE SCRIPTURES.

=========================================

Once again, the C.S.A. would be a great place to live. Filled with loving Christians led by the Spirit of GOD. Holy loving people loving each other and giving GOD glory!!!

SOLA SCRIPTURA.

SOLA FIDE.

SOLA GRATIA.

SOLUS CHRISTUS.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.
[/FONT]

FaithLikeARock · Mar 17, 2008

If you force Christianity on others, you are denying the true meaning of it. Christians are going to be persecuted. Christians are going to be denied. It was fated. Yet here Christians are WHINING about it, as if they have a right to anything otherwise. It's not true. True Believers will take it and still give everything they got. Not USE it. Christ didn't take the persecution that the Pharisees threw at Him and whine "YOU ARE PERSECUTING ME BECAUSE YOU'RE EVIL AND I'M GOOD!" No, He took it all, even to His crucifixion. Same with Stephen, the first martyr. A True Martyr doesn't COMPLAIN about his martyrdom, in fact I would gather to say that a TRUE Martyr worships God for his suffering. Just look at the Psalms.

Any so-called "Christian country" is probably led by the Anti-Christ. Because FORCING people to follow the beliefs of Christ doesn't save them or convert them. Instead it makes them rebel more and leads them down the path to destruction. It's sad when the main cause for rejection of the Holy Spirit IS Christians. Christians who are so obsessed that they practically beat non-believers into submission with their hellfire speeches and beliefs that Christianity should rule the world. No one wants to support something like that because it makes Christianity look like nothing more than a vanity government project. And it sickens me. And it probably sickens God as well.

Just the idea of a world ruled by "Christians" is so anti-Christian I can't stand it. Christianity has turned into a "WE'RE BEING SILENCED" but instead of doing what we are called to do and just talking louder, Christians have decided the best way to get the word out is to silence others. Which is nonsense! That is not what Christ intended at all!

SOF, your C.S.A project is not Christian and would destroy Christianity faster than any non-Christian belief, system, whatever, ever could. The number one cause of Christianity dying out is Christians who are too lazy to evangelize like they were called, and resort to silencing others. That is NOT True Evangelism. It's the tool the devil uses, and I for one will not work his game. If you really cared about these people you're so eager to see come to Christ, then neither would you.

GrayCat · Mar 18, 2008

FaithLikeARock said:
If you force Christianity on others, you are denying the true meaning of it. Christians are going to be persecuted. Christians are going to be denied. It was fated. Yet here Christians are WHINING about it, as if they have a right to anything otherwise. It's not true. True Believers will take it and still give everything they got. Not USE it. Christ didn't take the persecution that the Pharisees threw at Him and whine "YOU ARE PERSECUTING ME BECAUSE YOU'RE EVIL AND I'M GOOD!" No, He took it all, even to His crucifixion. Same with Stephen, the first martyr. A True Martyr doesn't COMPLAIN about his martyrdom, in fact I would gather to say that a TRUE Martyr worships God for his suffering. Just look at the Psalms.

Any so-called "Christian country" is probably led by the Anti-Christ. Because FORCING people to follow the beliefs of Christ doesn't save them or convert them. Instead it makes them rebel more and leads them down the path to destruction. It's sad when the main cause for rejection of the Holy Spirit IS Christians. Christians who are so obsessed that they practically beat non-believers into submission with their hellfire speeches and beliefs that Christianity should rule the world. No one wants to support something like that because it makes Christianity look like nothing more than a vanity government project. And it sickens me. And it probably sickens God as well.

Just the idea of a world ruled by "Christians" is so anti-Christian I can't stand it. Christianity has turned into a "WE'RE BEING SILENCED" but instead of doing what we are called to do and just talking louder, Christians have decided the best way to get the word out is to silence others. Which is nonsense! That is not what Christ intended at all!

SOF, your C.S.A project is not Christian and would destroy Christianity faster than any non-Christian belief, system, whatever, ever could. The number one cause of Christianity dying out is Christians who are too lazy to evangelize like they were called, and resort to silencing others. That is NOT True Evangelism. It's the tool the devil uses, and I for one will not work his game. If you really cared about these people you're so eager to see come to Christ, then neither would you.

You know that's just going to feed his persecution complex and need for acknowledgement as "God's Prophet" even more. LOL

Good Post. As a non-Christian i respect Christians like you a whole lot more than the ones who try to force their beliefs upon me while also trying to take my own away.

FaithLikeARock · Mar 18, 2008

GrayCat said:
You know that's just going to feed his persecution complex and need for acknowledgement as "God's Prophet" even more. LOL

Good Post. As a non-Christian i respect Christians like you a whole lot more than the ones who try to force their beliefs upon me while also trying to take my own away.

Little does he know, that'll only prove my point.

Christianity doesn't excuse looking like an idiot. In fact, if I look hard enough, I bet I can pinpoint a verse that says stupidity is a sin. I'll look in Proverbs. It also really pushes tolerance which contrary to popular belief is the RESPECT of other beliefs not the humanistic everyones-beliefs-are-correct view that so many Christians think it means. And in that case, Christ was right on board.

GrayCat · Mar 18, 2008

FaithLikeARock said:
Little does he know, that'll only prove my point.

Christianity doesn't excuse looking like an idiot. In fact, if I look hard enough, I bet I can pinpoint a verse that says stupidity is a sin. I'll look in Proverbs. It also really pushes tolerance which contrary to popular belief is the RESPECT of other beliefs not the humanistic everyones-beliefs-are-correct view that so many Christians think it means. And in that case, Christ was right on board.

Not exactly from the source you're looking for, but one of the sins in LaVeyan Satanism is stupidity. ;-)

FaithLikeARock · Mar 18, 2008

GrayCat said:
Not exactly from the source you're looking for, but one of the sins in LaVeyan Satanism is stupidity. ;-)

I know a few LaVeyan Satanists and they're awesome, let me tell you. Their name is misleading so when I tell my friends at church they go "WHAT!" and I have to explain that it's closer to atheism than it is to the cliche, Hollywood, "lambs blood and vampires" Satanism.

GrayCat · Mar 18, 2008

FaithLikeARock said:
I know a few LaVeyan Satanists and they're awesome, let me tell you. Their name is misleading so when I tell my friends at church they go "WHAT!" and I have to explain that it's closer to atheism than it is to the cliche, Hollywood, "lambs blood and vampires" Satanism.

Yep. I've met a couple on these boards. I share alot of the same LaVeyan ideas of Individuality, free-thought, etc in my religion.

Everyone says Left Hand Path as though it is an "evil, Devil-inspired" way to live and believe. Yet what I find is that SoF's posts on hanging people, hatred, God's wrath, and on and on are more in line with the stereotypical LHP images than any actual LHP belief system like LaVeyan Satanism, Thelema, Paganism and others.

ReverendDG · Mar 18, 2008

ShieldOFaith said:
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]YEEHAH!!! NOW DO YOU GET IT???[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]In a Christian Nation filled with Christians, we would not need to be hanging everybody!!! HELLO!

This is what I've been saying all along. In a country like the C.S.A. there would be no great need for mass executions. There would be very little crime. There would be no need for all of your "Nazi" fantasies.

ALL THE PEOPLE WHO KEEP COMPARING THE C.S.A. TO NAZI GERMANY ARE COMPLETELY WRONG AND HAVE NOT READ THESE SCRIPTURES.

=========================================

Once again, the C.S.A. would be a great place to live. Filled with loving Christians led by the Spirit of GOD. Holy loving people loving each other and giving GOD glory!!!

[/FONT]

what about those who aren't christian or disagree on what you outlaw? are they free to believe what they want as much as people who agree with you?
if not thats not really love, since love doesn't force others to agree with you.
disallowing people from not agreeing with you is just as bad as the nazis

Paulos23 · Mar 18, 2008

In a Christian Nation filled with Christians, we would not need to be hanging everybody!!! HELLO!

Ya, because you would have killed everyone who didn't fit your version of Christianity.

Must be why your country is so empty.

TheNewWorldMan · Mar 18, 2008

PassionFruit said:
Now that makes me wonder, shellfish is considered an abomination, I'm wondering if Shield would ban shellfish, if so, would he put people to death for eating shellfish?

I've repeatedly posed the question of whether or not OT criteria for capital punishment would be applied in their entirety in the CSA, and SoF repeatedly dodges the question, or tries to obfuscate the issue with irrelevant Bible quotes and !!!!!God says I'm right, He does He DOES!!!!! "rebuttals."

So, SoF, here are the questions yet again:

1. Will the OT be the sole source of law and be followed to the letter in the C.S.A.? This question should be answerable with a simple "yes" or "no," as either C.S.A. law = OT, or C.S.A. law ≠ OT.

2. If the answer to #1 is no, then on what basis and authority does SoF deviate from OT law?

I'm still waiting for an actual, original response (in other words, no cut-and-paste Scriptures) that addresses the questions. And judging from the mentality that SoF has displayed so far, I suspect I'll be waiting a long time for answers. SoF knows if he answers #1 "yes," then there's no difference between him and the fanatics that crashed airplanes into buildings on 9/11; both were "just following orders" from their holy books.

On the other hand, if SoF answers no, then all of his "my authority comes straight from God" rhetoric goes right out the window...

TheNewWorldMan · Mar 18, 2008

GrayCat said:
Are you certain that the being you are describing, and the being that you claim to know and speak for, is in fact the Christian God and not the Christian Devil?

I'll give you a little hint.

The god that SoF serves is pleased to meet him, and hopes SoF guessed his name...

Morcova · Mar 18, 2008

Mass Murder the christian way.

- SoF

Nathan Poe · Mar 18, 2008

ShieldOFaith said:
I don't think you read this. Here it is again.

Yes, we are all sinners. Hence the doctrine of Original Sin. However, that is why Messiah came down and died on the cross and rose up the third day. He now can cleanse you of your sins and make you Born Again (John 3). When you become born again, GOD makes you a new creature and you have the Holy Spirit of God living inside you!

New creature, old creature -- all will be hanged in the C.S.A.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

If we are born again and are a new creature we now can live by the Spirit of GOD.

[/FONT]

But the law says they need to be hanged, right Shield?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]So if we live by the Spirit and walk in the Spirit, we will not be running around murdering, raping, kidnapping...ect..

[/FONT]

But since murder, rape, and kidnapping, etc., will still occur in the C.S.A., then you'll simply dismiss the lawbreaker as "not a true Christian" and hang them.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

[/FONT]

For all the C.S.A.'s law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall hang your neighbor as yourself."

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]YEEHAH!!! NOW DO YOU GET IT???[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]In a Christian Nation filled with Christians, we would not need to be hanging everybody!!! HELLO!

[/FONT]

Oh, but you will, Shield -- because even Christians break the law from time to time. No matter how draconian the law is, there will still be people who, out of circumstance or necessity, will end up breaking it.

Do you really think for a moment that people will stop working on Saturdays, even under fear of execution?

Do you really think, teens being what they are, that they will never once talk back to a parent, teacher, or other authority figure?

Do you really think that no husband or wife -- even your own -- will ever give in to temptation to be unfaithful?

What do you suppose will prevent this? God, or the fear of hanging?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

This is what I've been saying all along. In a country like the C.S.A. there would be no great need for mass executions. There would be very little crime. There would be no need for all of your "Nazi" fantasies.

[/FONT]

This is where you are quite mistaken -- in a country like the C.S.A., there will be a great need for mass executions. Christians still sin, even with the fear of God's wrath as a consequence.

The only thing then, that the C.S.A. has to keep the populous in line is the threat to hang sinners. But this is an empty threat unless you actually show that you are willing to do it.

Even now, I think you're all talk.

Assuming that you're not, I would predict that the first six months to two years would be the worst, insofar as public hangings go. Then things should calm down, as they often do in draconian societies -- the sinners will simply go underground and learn how not to get caught.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

ALL THE PEOPLE WHO KEEP COMPARING THE C.S.A. TO NAZI GERMANY ARE COMPLETELY WRONG AND HAVE NOT READ THESE SCRIPTURES.

[/FONT]

We've been using the scriptures to show you the absurdity of your plan. The Law of the OT was used to keep the populous in line back in OT times. It did not work, else why was Christ sent?

Don't you see, SoF? There would've been no need for a New Covenant if the Old one had been working.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

Once again, the C.S.A. would be a great place to live. Filled with loving Christians led by the Spirit of GOD. Holy loving people loving each other and giving GOD glory!!!

[/FONT]

And anyone who fails to do so will be hanged. What I predict we'd see is a whole lot of people going through the motions, and monitoring their neighbors, looking for signs of unrighteous activity.

That's not love, it's paranoia. People cannot be compelled to love each other at gunpoint.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

SOLA SCRIPTURA.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]SOLA FIDE.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]SOLA GRATIA.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]SOLUS CHRISTUS.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]SOLI DEO GLORIA.[/FONT]

NON COMPOS MENTIS.

Cabal · Mar 18, 2008

ShieldOFaith said:
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]So if we live by the Spirit and walk in the Spirit, we will not be running around murdering, raping, kidnapping...ect..[/FONT]

...

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]In a Christian Nation filled with Christians, we would not need to be hanging everybody!!! HELLO! [/FONT]

...

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Once again, the C.S.A. would be a great place to live. Filled with loving Christians led by the Spirit of GOD. Holy loving people loving each other and giving GOD glory!!![/FONT]

The biggest problem here is that you seem to be under the mistaken impression that there's a list of sins that "real born again Christians" never commit.

Which is entirely the wrong way to go about it. Being a Christian isn't about fouling up and being subject to the Law (the entire concept is described in, oh, I don't know, the New Testament, you should read it sometime), it's about repentance and bettering your life?

Will there be some degree of variance in this? If you're an immature Christian will you be allowed some leeway if you screw up? Or is it a case of once you're in the CSA behave or be killed? You're oversimplifying a huge number of issues that are far from black and white by prescribing death as the overall solution.

Nathan Poe said:
then you'll simply dismiss the lawbreaker as "not a true Christian" and hang them.

SOF: This is the inherent danger in your form of government. And please don't tell me you'd apply the law perfectly, because no administration good or bad ever has.

Hence the comparisons to Nazi Germany, because fascists kill the opposition.

Nathan Poe said:
Even Christians break the law from time to time. No matter how draconian the law is, there will still be people who, out of circumstance or necessity, will end up breaking it.

Nathan Poe said:
Do you really think for a moment that people will stop working on Saturdays, even under fear of execution?

Do you really think, teens being what they are, that they will never once talk back to a parent, teacher, or other authority figure?

Do you really think that no husband or wife -- even your own -- will ever give in to temptation to be unfaithful?

What do you suppose will prevent this? God, or the fear of hanging?

SoF: You expect an unrealistic uniform version of human behaviour - you expect everyone to read the Bible and worship God in the same way. Every human being is different and conducts their life differently, so why do you even begin to think conformity will ever work?

As I asked before, will there be any leeway in this? Particularly with respect to spiritual maturity. What about people who grew up in the CSA raised as "Christians" but begin to backslide? Would you murder or exile them, or would you give them second chances? What about repentant culprits of the grievous sins of rape and murder (and homosexuality, not that I think it's causing the downfall of society as we know it, but what the hell, let's run with it for now). You seem to be in favour of execution with near-immediate effect upon sentencing.

Remember Jesus said if you do not forgive others, then he will not forgive you.

Good job you have no chance whatsoever to create this nation, as God wouldn't want you to end up in hell.

Over to you, SoF. Some actual response, this time, please. No copy-pasting or condescension.

ShieldOFaith · Mar 18, 2008

Q. If all you liberals believe that because Jesus rose from the dead, that that canceled completely the entire Old Testament; then can you explain this.

Is it now perfectly fine to have other gods before YHVH?

Is it now perfectly fine to make graven images and worship them?

Is it now perfectly fine to take the LORDS name in vain?

Is it now perfectly fine to not take a day to rest and worship.

Is it now perfectly fine to not honor your father and mother?

Is it now perfectly fine to murder?

Is it now perfectly fine to steal?

Hello?

Are you now seeing it?

VII. THE APPLICATION OF GOD'S LAW TO CIVIL JUSTICE
In order to more fully comprehend the issue at hand, it is important to understand the historical divisions of God's law. To aid our understanding, God's law has been divided into three categories: moral, civil, and ceremonial. This division is found in our Westminster Confession, chapter 19. The moral law is summarized in the 10 commandments and are, without question, applicable to the believer today (see WCF 19:2,5,6,7).

The ceremonial law was designed to be applied only in the shadows of the Old Covenant, since those bloody ceremonies served as sign posts pointing to the One whose blood would take away sin. The bloody rituals of the Old Covenant have been replaced by bloodless signs of baptism and the Lord's Supper in the New Covenant. The bloody signs of the Old Covenant pointed to a savior to come. The bloodless signs of the New Covenant point back to the savior who has come. It would not be accurate, however, to say that these ceremonial laws are abolished. They still teach us the principle that God requires a substitutionary blood sacrifice in order to forgive sins. For example, if you are traveling from Monroe to Jackson on I-20, the signs informing you of the number of miles to Jackson are very helpful. Once you arrive in Jackson, however, you no longer need those signs. They have served their purpose. They still apply to those traveling to Jackson and they still serve to remind you of where you were and the distance you have traveled.

The third category of the law is the judicial category and this is where the bulk of the controversy lies. The question is as follows: Are the judicial and penal sanctions in the law of Moses applicable to the Civil Magistrate today? The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 19:4 states: "To them (Israel) also as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws which expired together with the state of that people; not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

Although this statement from our Confession seems hopelessly confusing, a bit of careful thinking should clear the fog. First, it CANNOT mean that it is God's intent for the judicial law not to be applied at all. This would mean that the State is not under God in any way and implies that the Bible has nothing to say at all about penal justice. This is absolutely unconscionable and I cannot understand how any Christian could advocate such a monstrous position.

Besides, this interpretation of 19:4 is radically inconsistent with the Westminster Standards in other places. In the original version of the WCF, chapter 23, pertaining to the Civil Magistrate, one of the duties outlined by the Westminster Divines for the Civil Magistrate was that he is responsible to see that "all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed."

Although this provision was deleted in the late 1700's in the American version of the WCF, it is interesting to note that WLC question 108 (citing Deut. 7:5) was left intact. "The duties required in the Second Commandment are...disapproving, detesting, opposing all false worship; and according to one's place and calling, removing it and all monuments of idolatry."

There is an interesting historical vignette helpful to our discussion on the relationship between the Westminster Confession and Theonomy. According to the book, Minutes of the Sessions of the Westminster Assembly, p. 211, discussing the debate on Chapter 20, Of Christian Liberty and the Liberty of Conscience, the wording originally passed by the Assembly was "under the gospel consists, especially in freedom from the guilt and power of sin...from the ceremonial and judicial law..." The phrase: "freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law was moved to a point later in the section. For the purpose of our discussion, however, the important point is that any mention of being free from the judicial law was excised altogether and never appeared in the WCF. (Thanks to Bill Anderson for this information). This means, that as a result of the debate at the Assembly, the Divines determined that the Christian was not free from the claims of the judicial law!

There is also a "theonomic flavor" in Larger Catechism, question 191, which asks: "What do we pray for in the second petition?

Part of the answer reads: "...the Church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ be purely dispensed... Thus, the Civil Magistrate has a role in protecting the true Church and keeping her pure. Reformed Presbyterians opposed to theonomy, must, in order to maintain integrity, take exceptions to these provisions in our Standards.

NOW PAY REAL CLOSE ATTENTION HERE:

Secondly, if the judicial laws no longer apply in any way, how could any civil magistrate do his duty according to Romans 13? Romans 13:4 teaches us that it is the duty of the Civil Magistrate to be an avenger of God's wrath on the one who practices evil. How is a Civil Magistrate to carry out this duty without an absolute standard of what is good and evil? Without biblical judicial law, it is up to the magistrate himself to determine what is good or evil. The magistrate or legislative body must then arbitrarily determine the punishment for criminal behavior. Thus, King James I of England applied the death penalty for pickpocketing. An abandonment of theonomy leads to arbitrariness, tyranny and uneven punishment. Although Old Testament law has an unjustified reputation of being harsh, a theonomic ethic actually serves to protect citizens against tyrants run amuck. Thirdly, Christians must remember who wrote the judicial laws. They come from the mind of a perfectly good and just God.

God is perfectly fair. An abandonment of theonomy implies that man is wiser than God. It implies that God does not know what He is doing when it comes to civil law. Does any Christian really believe that better and more just laws can come from the minds of sinful, finite, fallen men? How absurd!! Christians who detest theonomy must understand that they are arguing against God.

Theonomists did not write those civil laws, God wrote each one of them. Theonomists believe the laws of God are wiser than men and at least are attempting to believe them and apply them.

The Westminster Divines employed the terms "general equity" because they understood that the Bible was written to apply to all cultures in all times. The case laws provide man with principles of justice that can be applied to all nations in all epochs. For example, Deuteronomy 22:8 requires a parapet to be built around the roof of a home. The theonomic position does NOT maintain that all houses today must have a guard rail constructed on the roof. We look for the general equity of the law. What is God teaching us in this statute? The general equity is a principle of safety. There are many modern applications, such as a requirement to build a fence around a swimming pool, lest a child wander in and drown. If someone owned a house with a flat roof and he entertained guests on the roof, the general equity would be, in that case, a literal application of the law.

To those who deny that the principles of the Old Testament civil code apply today, there is a question that must be answered. With what do you plan to replace God's law? Are the Republicans and Democrats more competent than the Almighty to draft just and righteous laws? Is fallen man better equipped than God to write laws which restrain crime and more efficiently govern people?
--Pastor T. Mark Duncan

Can you see it now?

Nathan Poe · Mar 18, 2008

ShieldOFaith said:
Q. If all you liberals believe that because Jesus rose from the dead, that that canceled completely the entire Old Testament; then can you explain this.

Can you explain why you avoid the question we actually ask, and instead make up your own?

Is it now perfectly fine to have other gods before YHVH?

Yes -- First Amendment.

Is it now perfectly fine to make graven images and worship them?

Again, Yes, First Amendment.

Is it now perfectly fine to take the LORDS name in vain?

As you just have? Yes -- First Amendment.

Is it now perfectly fine to not take a day to rest and worship.

Yes. What are you going to do -- hang us for going out on a Saturday?

Is it now perfectly fine to not honor your father and mother?

As fine as it is to hang them.

Is it now perfectly fine to murder?

Is it now perfectly fine to steal?

As perfectly fine as it was before the Bible was written -- that is to say, not at all.

Hello?

Hello, SoF, haven't seen you in hours. Going to answer our actual questions today?

Are you now seeing it?

Seeing you hang children, nonbelievers, and people who work on Saturday? Nope, not seeing it yet.

Fortunately, you don't have the stones to actually do it, so we never will see it.

<irrelevent spam snipped>
--Pastor T. Mark Duncan

Can you see it now?

Can you see that eventually, you'd have to hang Pastor Duncan in your C.S.A.?

Paulos23 · Mar 18, 2008

You know what, I think I have been looking at this C.S.A. all wrong. This could be a great business opportunity.

Men get horny, specially men in power. There are plenty of examples of this in history. I figure I can get rich by supplying porn and hooking up call girls with guys that are bored of the straight laced women of the C.S.A.. And since many of them will be high in the government/church, I should be relatively safe for a few years. Long enough to make a fortune and get out.

Thanks for the business opportunity SoF!

Nathan Poe · Mar 18, 2008

Paulos23 said:
You know what, I think I have been looking at this C.S.A. all wrong. This could be a great business opportunity.

Men get horny, specially men in power. There are plenty of examples of this in history. I figure I can get rich by supplying porn and hooking up call girls with guys that are bored of the straight laced women of the C.S.A..
And since many of them will be high in the government/church, I should be relatively safe for a few years. Long enough to make a fortune and get out.

Thanks for the business opportunity SoF!

Don't see why not -- prostitution was not only legal, but in many cases, supported by parishes until about a hundred years ago or so...

Paulos23 · Mar 18, 2008

Nathan Poe said:
Don't see why not -- prostitution was not only legal, but in many cases, supported by parishes until about a hundred years ago or so...

Good point. I would have to give the girls a health plan if it is legal, that would cut into the profit margin. But that would mean happy employees, and even happier customers. Happier customers = more money.

So SoF, when is the revolution?

Creating a New Nation! The New C.S.A. (2)

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