"Created Sick and Commanded to be Well". (Sin Nature)

Xalith

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So, this is a phrase some atheists like to throw in our face anytime we talk about the Sin Nature, and how we are commanded to repent and accept Christ:

"We were created sick and commanded to be well" or some variation of that. I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the actual wording of it.

This is an easy misunderstanding for someone who doesn't Understand to make, so I thought I'd take a second to really explain why it is a faulty viewpoint, and what is really going on.

First of all, the phrase compares Sin and the Sin Nature to some type of medical malady. For simplistic sake, we're going to call it a disease. Atheists would say that God created this disease, caused us to come down with it, and demands that we be well.

First of all, I will talk about the origin of that disease.

The origin of the disease appears to be Satan, God's most powerful angel who rebelled against Him because of Pride. Satan formed the first evil thoughts in his mind, and decided that he would try to overthrow God, and convinced a third of his angels to go with him. He, of course, fails and gets exiled to Earth, and the third of the angels that rebelled are thrown out as well (though the Bible makes it clear that Satan can still visit Heaven, see Job).

Later, God made the Garden of Eden and placed the Tree that had the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in it. What this fruit was exactly, isn't explained in detail (probably because such detail isn't really necessary), but what is important is that God told Adam not to eat it, or he would surely die. Adam believed, and obeyed (for awhile).

Then, later, Eve was created, and Satan tempted her and got her to eat of the fruit. Why Adam took the fruit also is not known, but perhaps he knew the consequences, and didn't want Eve to bear it by herself, so he ate the fruit so that he would remain with her. That's just theory on my part, though. A personal belief.

That's the origin of sin. God didn't create sin and evil thoughts, Satan did when he became proud. There's a reason why Pride is oftentimes referred to as the "worst" sin, because it leads to all other sins. Where the fruit came from, who knows.

Either way, we can conclude that God did not cause Adam and Eve to eat that fruit, therefore He didn't create Adam and Eve "unwell", or "sick".

Sin works a lot like a disease (or genetic mutation) that's hereditary -- every person that is ever born has it because Adam and Eve had it before they gave birth to their firstborn.

Now, atheists like to say that God "commands us to be well".

I would propose that God does the very opposite, and man's attempts to be well on his own is only making the disease worse.

God knows the cure, and there is only one cure. The Cure only works under certain situations, and it works like this:

God said from the beginning that all sin must be punished by the shedding of blood, which is life. Some atheists balk at this because they don't like it, but that's simply what He said.

So, when Israel came out of Egypt as a Nation, God set up an animal sacrifice system that was meant to be symbolic, and also as a show of obedience (animal sacrifices cannot pay for sin) that was meant to be temporary until God sent Christ down to Earth.

Then, Christ was sacrificed. Since Christ led a sinless life, had no sin in Him (because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, therefore the "disease" was not in Him), He was the Perfect Sacrifice.

Christ is the Cure to the disease that we all have. God said "Here is your cure." and He only asks us to do three things:

1). Realize and agree that we are diseased and in need of a cure.
2). Repent and turn away from the evil things we've done or are accustomed to doing.
3). Accept Christ as our cure.

Christ is a cure that takes time to heal a person. When the person accepts Christ, a special medicine is given immediately, which does its work over time. The person will never be perfect, however as time goes on, the person gets closer and closer to it until they eventually die.

Those who have gotten the cure, will die once, but live on afterwards in spirit, in Heaven.
Those who have not gotten the cure, will die once... and then die again because they were not cured of the disease. That's why Revelation calls the Lake of Fire the "second death". All sin leads to the second death, unless of course, you were cured.

However, note above how I said that He asked us to Repent and turn away from evil? Well, if we look at Sin like a disease...

Let's say you contract a disease by a specific method. Let's use an STD for an example. You go to the doctor, and get some medication that slowly reverses the STD, and the doctor tells you to stay away from unsafe sex, but you ignore his advice and you go out and you continue to have unsafe sex, and get re-infected with the disease all over again (and/or spreading it to others too), perhaps even a different strain than the one you previously had (or an all new STD altogether). Then you go back to the doctor and he goes "I told you to stop doing that, and you went out and did it anyways... why should I give you another medication?"

This is kinda like how sin works. When a person accepts Christ and says they're sorry, but turns back to sin knowingly and willingly, they are basically re-infecting themselves with the disease and making the problem worse.

Now, the Bible says that every Christian will still sin occasionally in their lives, but there's a difference between knowingly diving head-first into sinful activities you know you're not supposed to be doing, and failing to resist temptation. The former, you pre-meditate, the latter you end up doing in the heat of the moment but you weren't seeking it. And also, there's unknowning sin, where a Christian does something they didn't know was sin (usually in their first few months of being a Christian).

So anyways, that's my thoughts on the subject.
 

cloudyday2

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Hey, @Xalith , you might be interested in listening to part of this video.
It is a Christian author being interviewed on the Joni Lamb Table Talk show on Daystar. I happened to be watching it this evening, and I thought he had some good insights on the Garden of Eden story.

The relevant portion is 8:20 to 10:20 for anybody who is curious
http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/video/?video=4536332706001
 
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Moral Orel

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God didn't create sin and evil thoughts, Satan did when he became proud.

So God didn't create everything? He didn't design the way the universe works, in that, sin was an unintended consequence of Satan's actions? And since sin was something that he didn't intend, and didn't design, He, of course, didn't design it in a way that it would be passed on hereditarily making the ancestors of Adam and Eve carry this disease through no fault of their own?

You say that everyone sins on occasion. Now this can't be because of the "sin disease" because accepting Jesus cures us of it. So we can choose to go and re-infect ourselves, but it isn't because we have the disease. So why does everyone continue to sin, even Christians who have been cured? Is it because that is who we are? Is it because we have an irresistible compulsion? Is it because that is how we are made? Is it because that is how we are designed?
 
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Xalith

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So God didn't create everything? He didn't design the way the universe works, in that, sin was an unintended consequence of Satan's actions? And since sin was something that he didn't intend, and didn't design, He, of course, didn't design it in a way that it would be passed on hereditarily making the ancestors of Adam and Eve carry this disease through no fault of their own?

God created all of the beings that exist, all of the planets, etc. He also created the concept of Free Will, and gave a measure of intelligence to both men and angels. One of those angels devised evil (just happened to be what is believed to be The top angel at the time), and caused a third of all angels to follow him.

Men create new ideas all the time, however we need to remember, that God created us, and gave us the ability to use our imaginations. God gave us the ability to create things ourselves... but yet we have to use things that God originally made, to make new things. When you build a house... you are using materials that were found/gathered from the Earth, which God had made previously. The house, you created... but you did so using things God put there before.

You say that everyone sins on occasion.

The definition of sin is "falling short of God's standards", and until He makes us perfect after we leave the Earth, then yes, we all have sin in us.

Now this can't be because of the "sin disease" because accepting Jesus cures us of it.

Read what I said again: He gives us an immediate medicine that does its work over time. We aren't fully cured until we die the first death. We get closer and closer to being cured, but that is impossible to attain while we're still in the fleshly body.

So we can choose to go and re-infect ourselves, but it isn't because we have the disease. So why does everyone continue to sin, even Christians who have been cured?

We continue to have sin in us (again, that falling short), because we're not fully cured until the first death. You've taken the medicine, and it is curing you slowly over time and reversing the damage that was done. If you go out and knowingly/intentionally "re-infect" yourself, then you're basically undoing what the medicine did in the first place.

Is it because that is who we are? Is it because we have an irresistible compulsion? Is it because that is how we are made? Is it because that is how we are designed?

The fleshly body itself has its chemical hormones, imbalances, etc. The entire flesh is seen as sinful in the Bible, as everybody is born in a fleshly body and given a spirit, or a soul, upon conception (not upon birth!). The fleshly body and all of its chemical hormones, imbalances, etc want the same carnal things that animals do, but yet our spirit inside knows better. It's a constant struggle, it's meant to be a purification by trials type thing. The people who make it through trials are tried, tested, and true.

You're sent down here to Earth to be born in a body, collect experiences, knowledge, and wisdom, and when you die, you're supposed to return to the Father with all of these. The problem is, is that the vast majority forget about Him, and succumb to their fleshly body's evil desires.
 
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Moral Orel

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The fleshly body itself has its chemical hormones, imbalances, etc. The entire flesh is seen as sinful in the Bible, as everybody is born in a fleshly body and given a spirit, or a soul, upon conception (not upon birth!). The fleshly body and all of its chemical hormones, imbalances, etc want the same carnal things that animals do, but yet our spirit inside knows better. It's a constant struggle, it's meant to be a purification by trials type thing. The people who make it through trials are tried, tested, and true.

And there is your "created sick and commanded to be well". God designed our fleshly bodies with an impossible to resist (completely) urge to sin, but commands that our spirits overpower the flesh and be well.
 
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Xalith

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And there is your "created sick and commanded to be well". God designed our fleshly bodies with an impossible to resist (completely) urge to sin, but commands that our spirits overpower the flesh and be well.

Impossible to resist? I resist urges all the time. I can't say I never fail to resist (nobody is perfect and He knows that), but I succeed in resisting urges quite often.

God gives one all the tools one needs to do so, and it we fail, it is genuinely our fault. He'll forgive us if we failed to resist a temptation or an urge, all He asks us to do is repent and try harder next time. Over time, the Christian will notice that he/she is resisting more often, more successfully, and sinning less. That's what Holy Spirit does; He sanctifies us and purifies us over time. When I first started as a Christian but a year ago, I still had sinful urges, though I put most of my sins away but I still had urges now and then, and I failed to resist. I repented and asked for help to overcome. Nowadays, I can go for weeks without partaking of a certain sinful habit I once had. There was a time when I would do said habit 10-12 times a week before I came to Christ. The first few weeks after I came to Christ, I had it down to 3-4 times a week, and then for awhile it was twice weekly, then once a week...

He just doesn't want a person diving head-first into sin knowing exactly what they are about to do is wrong. If a man is walking past a woman who is scantily dressed and his eyes wander, and he envisions himself in bed with her, that's a sin. However, he wasn't seeking that woman, he just happened to walk by her and failed to resist the temptation to look at stuff he shouldn't have been looking at.

Compare that to a man who comes home from work, puts on his social clothes and says to himself "I'm gonna go to the bar tonight, do some drinking and see if I can't find a nice looking girl to take home."

That man is knowingly going to commit premeditated sin. That's a whole different ballgame.
 
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Moral Orel

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Impossible to resist? I resist urges all the time. I can't say I never fail to resist (nobody is perfect and He knows that), but I succeed in resisting urges quite often.
That's why I added the word "completely" parenthetically. Everyone is doomed to sin sometimes because that is how God designed our flesh that drives us towards sin.
 
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Xalith

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That's why I added the word "completely" parenthetically. Everyone is doomed to sin sometimes because that is how God designed our flesh that drives us towards sin.

He didn't "design" us to be like this, this is how we ended up after the Fall. The man that God originally designed, Adam, was immortal, perfect, and sinless (the same immortality, perfection, and sinlessness that we will have in Heaven). Until, of course, he ate the fruit. Then he, and all of his descendants, wound up being sinful fallen creatures.

Now, God knows that we are not perfect. That is why He gives us so much mercy when it comes to failing to resist temptation. He does expect us to try, and He expects us to feel sorrow and regret whenever we do fail to resist, and He certainly doesn't want us premeditating sin.

I don't think that's too much to ask... "Don't commit premeditated sin, and try your best to resist temptation to sin". Gloom & Doom preachers will blow the whole thing out of proportion, but it basically falls into Him asking us to not knowingly plan to do things we know is wrong, and try to resist the urge to do bad things, but if we should slip and fall, we confess it to Him (not to a priest, lol), apologize and ask Him to help us resist better in the future.

After awhile, it gets easier, but you always have to be on guard.

The thing is, though, is you have to actually WANT to be more holy, to live a more holy lifestyle. If you WANT to be holy, and live a more holy lifestyle, then God will certainly help you do that, because that's what He wants you to do too.

If a person has no desire to be holy... then why do they belong in Heaven, where there is holiness everywhere? They don't, and I don't say that to be offensive, it's just the truth. If a person doesn't like or believe in God... then why would they want to be in that place where God permeates everything?
 
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Moral Orel

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He didn't "design" us to be like this, this is how we ended up after the Fall. The man that God originally designed, Adam, was immortal, perfect, and sinless (the same immortality, perfection, and sinlessness that we will have in Heaven). Until, of course, he ate the fruit. Then he, and all of his descendants, wound up being sinful fallen creatures.
Okay, so the way God created the flesh of Adam and Eve was that they were capable of resisting sin. They had the capability to resist eating that fruit and could have done so for a quadrillion years.

After they ate the fruit, that sin made it so that they, and every human that came after them, was incapable of resisting sin in the same way.

This was an unintended consequence of sin. God didn't design the universe to work in such a way that sin would be created in a hereditary way such as this. That kind of statement usually gets a negative spin. I don't mean anything like, "if God hadn't created me, then I wouldn't have sinned, so all sin is his fault". I just mean that you seem to be taking the responsibility of a part of creation away from God. Think of it this way. If I take a hammer, and hit a rock with it, and it forms a crack, did I create "cracks" or did God design the way rocks work to crack when hit with hammers?

So Adam committed the first sin, and became "infected", but God designed that "disease" in such a way that it would be passed on hereditarily so that people won't have a real choice in whether they sinned or not, because the "disease" forces them to sin sometimes.

Also, and just as a side note, this explanation requires a nearly literal interpretation of Genesis, does it not? Perhaps we could say that God took his time and billions of years passed through the first few days, but we would have to believe that the human race is 6000 years old and descended from only two people, correct?
 
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ViaCrucis

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So God didn't create everything? He didn't design the way the universe works, in that, sin was an unintended consequence of Satan's actions?

I know I'm not the one being addressed, but I figured I'd try interjecting myself into the conversation anyway, if that's alright.

I would disagree with the assessment that Satan created evil, primarily because that comes entirely too close to a kind of cosmic dualism, something which Christianity has historically rejected outright. I would instead content, in agreement with the ancient fathers of the Church, that evil isn't a thing at all, evil has no objective existence; rather evil is the deprivation, the absence, or the perversion of the good. The natural appetites of man are not intrinsically evil, sexual desire is good because it leads us to procreation, hunger and thirst are good because they lead us to keep the body nourished. The problem arises when the natural appetites become malformed and used in such a way that they cause us to harm others and the rest of creation. This malformation, this bending of the appetites, is what theologians in the West have called concupiscence, the strong desire(s) of the flesh which, broken and bent by sin, leads us to sinful--that is, mis-aimed, errant--actions.

Satan isn't the cause of sin or evil, but is rather himself a creature who is sinful and evil. Again, I'd consider saying that the devil is the author of evil to be dualistic and potentially heterodox.

And since sin was something that he didn't intend, and didn't design, He, of course, didn't design it in a way that it would be passed on hereditarily making the ancestors of Adam and Eve carry this disease through no fault of their own?

This can be tricky, largely because on the issue of what has been called original or ancestral sin there are a number of ideas and positions held within mainstream Christian thinking. I'd say the only real position that is flat-out condemned as heretical, in terms of historical positions proposed--would be Pelagianism. But what the various theories on original or ancestral sin are attempting to communicate--and I think this is what is important--is that creation really is intrinsically good, but yet we see something deeply wrong. It's the same issue that I think that the story in Genesis 3 is trying to articulate through the use of a mythological narrative; creation really is good, intrinsically good, and yet there's something amiss, and so speaks of a tragic event wherein mankind's fore-parents broke intimate communion with God and with one another, and the results were tragic. The story is less about how snakes can talk and trick naked women into eating fruit, and is more to do with the fact that there is something seemingly very wrong in the world that we inhabit.

You say that everyone sins on occasion. Now this can't be because of the "sin disease" because accepting Jesus cures us of it. So we can choose to go and re-infect ourselves, but it isn't because we have the disease. So why does everyone continue to sin, even Christians who have been cured? Is it because that is who we are? Is it because we have an irresistible compulsion? Is it because that is how we are made? Is it because that is how we are designed?

This is probably where a lot of modern pietistic-leaning Evangelical theology departs from a more traditional Christian understanding. The Christian isn't one who is cured, but is rather one who is under treatment. The idea that the Church is a hospital, or a place of ongoing treatment and healing, is a metaphor that has been used through much of Christian history, for example St. John Chrysostom says,

"Enter into the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. ... Did you commit sin? Enter the Church, repent for your sin, for here is the physician, not the judge. Here one is not investigated; one receives remission of sins."

In the language of Lutheranism the Christian is simul iustus et peccator, simultaneously saint and sinner. Just, because of Christ's imputed justice, sinner because of our continued sin. In Lutheranism Christian spirituality is solely in the Gospel, hearing the Gospel proclaimed and received in the Sacraments; in Confession and Absolution, we confess and repent, and remind ourselves of our baptism, we are comforted by the words "your sins are forgiven" trusting that this is true on account of the promises of God in Jesus; we are nourished by the gifts of the Eucharist, receiving the body and blood of Christ broken and shed for us in and under the bread and the wine. We are an unholy and unrighteous people called to hear the words of Christ and receive the gifts of Christ and to, in Him and by Him, have holiness and righteousness, not of ourselves, but of Him. It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick; Christ did not call the righteous, but the unrighteous to repentance. And to daily, regular repentance is the common vocation of the Christian, to die to sin, affirming the truth and reality of our baptism, confessing the word of Jesus' Gospel. We are not yet well, none of us are, and we should never erringly think we are; our confession isn't that we are already well, but that there is One who is making the whole world well and will make all things right. Not just us, but all of creation will be made whole.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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