Create [bara] vs make [asah]

tonychanyt

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ESV, Genesis 1:
26a Then God said, “Let us make [H6213 asah] man in our image"
H6213 occurs 2628 times.

27 So God created [H1254 bara] man in his own image,
Here H6213 and H1254 were used interchangeably.
in the image of God he created [H1254 bara] him;
male and female he created [H1254 bara] them.
H1254 occurs 55 times. We can see that bara does not exclusively refer only to creation ex nihilo (“out of nothing”)

Answers in Genesis gives a more extensive explanation:
It is true that in Scripture only God is the subject of the verb bara; men make (asah) things, but only God creates (bara).1 But God also makes (asah) things.

The meanings of these two words overlap.
 
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CoreyD

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ESV, Genesis 1:

H6213 occurs 2628 times.


Here H6213 and H1254 were used interchangeably.

H1254 occurs 55 times. We can see that bara does not exclusively refer only to creation ex nihilo (“out of nothing”)

Answers in Genesis gives a more extensive explanation:


The meanings of these two words overlap.
Nice topic.

Some see the word usage as deliberate - conveying different thoughts.
One example is, Genesis 1:24, 25. The distinction between wild and domestic animals - begs the question, why are some animals domestic, and some wild.

If the use of the word make, refers to in progress, or a process, that would be, an explanation that reasonably answers the question.
The animals were created, but progressively became either wild, or domesticated.
This makes sense, since the writer, is not writing in the present - when things are happening, but is writing history - after these events are long past.
We know human came after the animals, so that information sheds light on why animals would be domesticated. Cats, as one example.

So, while God made Adam and Eve in his image, it was a process, when he created them. Hence, why Genesis 1:27 says, God created them in his image, after saying he would make them in his image.

To better explain, Eve was created from Adam's rib, but at what point was she made in the image of God?
In my opinion, this understanding makes everything in Genesis 1, and 2 fit correctly, in place, and I think the writer knew exactly what he was saying, and used the appropriate words.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Heres all three

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name:
for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Formed from the ground, made from a rib and created is often shown with the Spirit,

Psalm 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

In Genesis 1:27 & Gen 5:1-2 speaks to the day they were created or where the mention of them both together. Between these show the forming of Adam (ground) and woman being made (from his side) and Psalm shows the spirit as it pertains to them being created.

Seems to show three things that are named all spoken of in some way between Genesis 1:27 - 5:1-2

for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.


 
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Fireinfolding

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Isaiah points to 3 things here (created, formed, & made)

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

On the Seventh day it shows 2 of those things here (created &made)

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Then seems to fill in the gaps with man here (being formed)

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Followed up by (being made)

Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Then after the blood of Abel, its spoken they are (created) and called their name Adam

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Then the spirit here

Psalm 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
 
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CoreyD

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Heres all three

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name:
for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Formed from the ground, made from a rib and created is often shown with the Spirit,

Psalm 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

In Genesis 1:27 & Gen 5:1-2 speaks to the day they were created or where the mention of them both together. Between these show the forming of Adam (ground) and woman being made (from his side) and Psalm shows the spirit as it pertains to them being created.

Seems to show three things that are named all spoken of in some way between Genesis 1:27 - 5:1-2

for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.


Was this for me or Tony, @Fireinfolding? I'm not following what you are saying. I don't understand what you are saying, in other words.

Isaiah points to 3 things here (created, formed, & made)

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

On the Seventh day it shows 2 of those things here (created &made)

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Then seems to fill in the gaps with man here (being formed)

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Followed up by (being made)

Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Then after the blood of Abel, its spoken they are (created) and called their name Adam

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Then the spirit here

Psalm 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Very nice.
I think this is much clearer than your previous post, which I could not understand.
Yes. Forming, making, and creating, all have their part to play, while not all being the same, but can overlap, as @tonychanyt said.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Was this for me or Tony, @Fireinfolding? I'm not following what you are saying. I don't understand what you are saying, in other words.

I was just posting to the thread CoreyD so no worries, just "putting it out there"
Very nice.
I think this is much clearer than your previous post, which I could not understand.
Yes. Forming, making, and creating, all have their part to play, while not all being the same, but can overlap, as @tonychanyt said.

Sorry bout that, I most certainly was unclear. I got a little lazy there. I try to keep it short because I go all over the place and just prefer posting scripture instead of adding too much.

I recall looking at these things for so long some years back. I kept returning to them examining the patern overlapping between these things (Adam/Eve/Christ/the Church). Just looking at what could belong to which thing (as far as formed/made/created goes) and the various things encompassed in each picture (and the wording as it relates to each of the same). Like the forming of man (and the dust of ground for example) but we also have forming of Christ in the Church (called the pillar and ground of him) since dust we all are (even as we are all flesh). Shows three parts (made, created, and formed). Adam (first man) is shown as formed (from the ground) whereas the woman is made from the side of Adam (she being the bone of him) could reflect the side of Christ (in the blood and water that come from him). I the made part of the woman (who comes from man) we have rib/bone of him in the first man, but there are two parts ( the blood and water) in Christ's /Last man's side (which picture has everything to do with "not a bone of him" was to be broken) in that picture as well. Since we are the bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh (Ephes 5:32).

God caused a sleep to fall upon first Adam (who was formed) and we see that he was already asleep when this one part was removed from his side, and likewise was Jesus already dead when they pierced him in the side (and two parts come from him). And just how the LORD God brings woman unto the first man, and likewise Jesus said no man can come to me unless the Father who sent him draws them. Just how they can overlap like that. Or just how you'll notice how that in the seventh day only what is made and created is mentioned whereas what is formed is not mentioned (only in Isaiah are they mentioned together formed/made/created as far as it pertains to man). Even as it speaks of a people yet created (Psalm 102:18) and how we are created in Christ and that is by his Spirit 1 Cr 15:45 The first man/last man pictures. Trying to better catch how they can be linked. Hard to write because there is alot of back and forth cross checking. It would seem that if formed pertains to the flesh alone, or the first man in whatever sense it can be shown and the flesh counts for nothing also in this equation (in some way) then it would make sense that its not noted in the seventh day. Just what is made and created is mentioned there. In the place where she is made (of first Adam) as the bone of him, the provision for her is in the last man or in the side of Christ (the blood and water). The Spirit follows after his crucifixtion in his flesh which has to do with a people being created (or recreated so to speak) in the sense of the pattern. There is blood/water/Spirit in Christ even there. Just as God gives a recap after the blood of Abel you can catch a glimspe of the same in Christ (both pictures). In Christ we put off the old man (put off the flesh) and become new creation in him (the new man).

I am not really great at typing my own words and thoughts, I pretty much stink at that, I jumble things all together. But it's always encouraging to see these things, because you know intuitively there is something more there but you cannot quite put your finger on it. But you dont want to share it because your thoughts are like scrambled eggs (all over the place) as you consider things and how they can be laid out showing some order to them. I find you have to sit with them awhile. And if you want to talk about them, just toss a few of the scriptures you are considering but dont say too much (I will mess anything up if it's in my own words) ^_^

I am all over the place I know, but its pretty cool how God recounts creating man after the blood of Abel is spilled and how its noted thereafter that men began to call upon the name of the Lord. And how after the blood of Christ the same is shown, and how Seth is appointed in the former's stead (or Abel's stead) and how the apostles are appointed in Christs stead.
 
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CoreyD

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I was just posting to the thread CoreyD so no worries, just "putting it out there"
Oh, okay. :cool:

Sorry bout that, I most certainly was unclear. I got a little lazy there. I try to keep it short because I go all over the place and just prefer posting scripture instead of adding too much.
That's good. I like that.
That works fine if the subject is one, but talking about three, without explaining at least, can cause confusion, as it's hard to know what the point being made is.

I recall looking at these things for so long some years back. I kept returning to them examining the patern overlapping between these things (Adam/Eve/Christ/the Church). Just looking at what could belong to which thing (as far as formed/made/created goes) and the various things encompassed in each picture (and the wording as it relates to each of the same). Like the forming of man (and the dust of ground for example) but we also have forming of Christ in the Church (called the pillar and ground of him) since dust we all are (even as we are all flesh). Shows three parts (made, created, and formed). Adam (first man) is shown as formed (from the ground) whereas the woman is made from the side of Adam (she being the bone of him) could reflect the side of Christ (in the blood and water that come from him). I the made part of the woman (who comes from man) we have rib/bone of him in the first man, but there are two parts ( the blood and water) in Christ's /Last man's side (which picture has everything to do with "not a bone of him" was to be broken) in that picture as well. Since we are the bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh (Ephes 5:32).

God caused a sleep to fall upon first Adam (who was formed) and we see that he was already asleep when this one part was removed from his side, and likewise was Jesus already dead when they pierced him in the side (and two parts come from him). And just how the LORD God brings woman unto the first man, and likewise Jesus said no man can come to me unless the Father who sent him draws them. Just how they can overlap like that. Or just how you'll notice how that in the seventh day only what is made and created is mentioned whereas what is formed is not mentioned (only in Isaiah are they mentioned together formed/made/created as far as it pertains to man). Even as it speaks of a people yet created (Psalm 102:18) and how we are created in Christ and that is by his Spirit 1 Cr 15:45 The first man/last man pictures. Trying to better catch how they can be linked. Hard to write because there is alot of back and forth cross checking. It would seem that if formed pertains to the flesh alone, or the first man in whatever sense it can be shown and the flesh counts for nothing also in this equation (in some way) then it would make sense that its not noted in the seventh day. Just what is made and created is mentioned there. In the place where she is made (of first Adam) as the bone of him, the provision for her is in the last man or in the side of Christ (the blood and water) and Spirit follows after his crucifixtion which has to do with them being created (or recreated so to speak) but in the sense of the pattern. Just as God gives a recap after the blood of Abel you can catch a glimspe of the same in Christ (both pictures). In Christ we put off the old man (put off the flesh) and become new creation in him (the new man).

I am not really great at typing my own words and thoughts, I pretty much stink at that, I jumble things all together. But it always encouraging to see these things, because you know intuitively there is something more there but you cannot quite put your finger on it. But you dont want to share it because your thoughts are like scrambled eggs (all over the place) as you consider things and how they can be laid out showing some order to them. I find you have to sit with them awhile. And if you want to talk about them, just toss a few of the scriptures you are considering but dont say too much (I will mess anything if its in my own words) ^_^

I am all over the place I know, but its pretty cool how God recounts creating man after the blood of Abel is spilled and how its noted thereafter that men began to call upon the name of the Lord. And how after the blood of Christ the same is shown, and how Seth is appointed in the former's stead (or Abel's stead) and how the apostles are appointed in Christs stead.
You don't sound like you are all over the place.
If I read you correctly, you think Genesis is symbolic of something else. Am I understanding you correctly?
 
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CoreyD

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Thats a mess, I to edit that, still a mess.
No. Don't second guess yourself. You might think everything you do is a mess, and then you make a mess. :)
Sometimes what we think or feel about ourselves, makes it hard for us. I understand how that can be. So, I want to encourage you, don't be hard on yourself.
I too, have quite a bit of perfectionism in me. ;)
 
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Fireinfolding

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That's good. I like that.
That works fine if the subject is one, but talking about three, without explaining at least, can cause confusion, as it's hard to know what the point being made is.

Isaiah puts it out there without explanation to us

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

So when Tonychanyt says,

"The meanings of these two words overlap."

You can agree that there are examples of that, and in Isaiah it seems to show them as being distinct (even where an addition is added)

You don't sound like you are all over the place.
If I read you correctly, you think Genesis is symbolic of something else. Am I understanding you correctly?

Adam is the figure of him that was to come Romans 5:14 and the man and woman becoming one flesh is great mystery Paul wrote in Ephes 5:32, saying "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church".

And just as Adam is the figure of him who was to come so also was Melchisedec made like unto the Son of God in Hebrews 7:3 And so that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest Hebs 7:15 which again points to Christ Psalm 110:4
 
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Fireinfolding

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No. Don't second guess yourself. You might think everything you do is a mess, and then you make a mess. :)
Sometimes what we think or feel about ourselves, makes it hard for us. I understand how that can be. So, I want to encourage you, don't be hard on yourself.
I too, have quite a bit of perfectionism in me. ;)

Not everything I do, just posting in my own words. But if I stay with his words alone, I am perfectly content with that, and the way he can show you things just using his words are far better than using our own. Some people prefer others words to his, I don't most people will lose me with theirs.

Its all good, even when I second guess myself, because I sometimes have to do that ^_^
 
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CoreyD

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Isaiah puts it out there without explanation to us

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

So when Tonychanyt says,

"The meanings of these two words overlap."

You can agree that there are examples of that, and in Isaiah it seems to show them as being distinct (even where an addition is added)



Adam is the figure of him that was to come Romans 5:14 and the man and woman becoming one flesh is great mystery Paul wrote in Ephes 5:32, saying "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church".

And just as Adam is the figure of him who was to come so also was Melchisedec made like unto the Son of God in Hebrews 7:3 And so that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest Hebs 7:15 which again points to Christ Psalm 110:4
Where do you believe the human race came from?
Both Jesus and Paul gave the origin - Mark 10:6-9; Acts 17:26
 
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CoreyD

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Why are you asking me and then telling me? ^_^
I'm asking what you believe. I am not telling you what you believer. I prefer to ask.
There are persons who believe that the account of Genesis is just allegory, and Adam and Eve were not actual people. I'm trying to find out if you are one of those persons
I decided to, at the same time, express what Jesus and Paul taught.
If you believe the human race came from Adam and Eve, as Genesis says, that's great.
I would only wonder why persons see the need to make the Adam an Eve account allegorical .
 
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Fireinfolding

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I misunderstood you here. Glad to know, you were just making comparisons. Clarified. :relieved:
That would be Paul not me when it come to making them anything at all

And. Yes, comparing things

You know the example, of Sarah and Hagar shown as two covenants (which things are an allegory)

Gal 4:22 For it is written,

that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Paul sums those things up saying

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants

Whereas he also said this,

1 Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Which would not be received by everyone as Paul said,

1 Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them
, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul would have understood that Abraham's things could be used in an allegoric fashion seeing Abraham was a prophet (Gen 20:7)

And God tells us how He spake by the prophets and what he used by them

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes,
by the ministry of the prophets.

Same with the similitude of Melchisedec we find there also.
 
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CoreyD

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That would be Paul not me when it come to making them anything at all

And. Yes, comparing things

You know the example, of Sarah and Hagar shown as two covenants (which things are an allegory)

Gal 4:22 For it is written,

that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Paul sums those things up saying

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants

Whereas he also said this,

1 Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Which would not be received by everyone as Paul said,

1 Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them
, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul would have understood that Abraham's things could be used in an allegoric fashion seeing Abraham was a prophet (Gen 20:7)

And God tells us how He spake by the prophets and what he used by them

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes,
by the ministry of the prophets.

Same with the similitude of Melchisedec we find there also.
That's quite insightful.
You have really looked 'at these things for so long some years back'.
How long ago would that be?
 
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Fireinfolding

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That's quite insightful.
You have really looked 'at these things for so long some years back'.
How long ago would that be?

I sure do love looking at these things, the searching and comparing these sorts of things is addictive. I just follow the bread crumbs as laid out for us in them really.

I have been studying the scriptures for around 30 years.

How about yourself?
 
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CoreyD

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I sure do love looking at these things, the searching and comparing these sorts of things is addictive. I just follow the bread crumbs as laid out for us in them really.

I have been studying the scriptures for around 30 years.

How about yourself?
Wow. Same as you. Next couple month this years would make 30, exact.
 
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