Cratonavis Zhui….Missing Link?

[FaithT]

Here’s an article from AIG. I just saw a podcast on Creation.com last night where two scientists said that there are no missing links but then I ran across this today. Missing link or not?

Cratonavis zhui: A Dinosaur-like Bird?

Cratonavis zhui is an alleged link between dinosaurs and birds.

answersingenesis.org

 

[BobRyan]

Here’s an article from AIG. I just saw a podcast on Creation.com last night where two scientists said that there are no missing links but then I ran across this today. Missing link or not?

Cratonavis zhui: A Dinosaur-like Bird?

Cratonavis zhui is an alleged link between dinosaurs and birds.

answersingenesis.org

"Some of the most noticeable differences between Cratonavis and Archaeopteryx are the shorter tail in Cratonavis, four digits on the foot (compared to three on Archaeopteryx) and the scapula and coracoid fused into a scapulocoracoid on Cratonavis but unfused in Archaeopteryx. This latter trait is a bit perplexing as the fused scapulocoracoid is considered a more primitive trait than what is found on the allegedly 30 MY older Archaeopteryx."

So - more primitive than Archaeopteryx (ancestral or not).

Looking at things like "shorter" tail - brings up the fact that some dogs have shorter tails and others longer ones but not necessarily andestral to each other.

But it is not just Creationists that say they have no transitional forms. Atheist evolutionists like Collin Patterson made the same claim

 

[FaithT]

So is this a missing link or not?

 

[FaithT]

So is this a missing link or not?

???????

 

[Job 33:6]

Here’s an article from AIG. I just saw a podcast on Creation.com last night where two scientists said that there are no missing links but then I ran across this today. Missing link or not?

Cratonavis zhui: A Dinosaur-like Bird?

Cratonavis zhui is an alleged link between dinosaurs and birds.

answersingenesis.org

There are many species of bird-like dinosaurs and dinosaur-like birds. Perhaps a couple dozen now, so i would say yes and lump it in with the others.

 

[The Barbarian]

The real issue is that the last difference, as far as I know, between birds and other dinosaurs (movable upper jaw joint in birds) is now gone. This one pretty much erases the last boundary. If someone can show me one that remains, I'd be happy to look at it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So is this a missing link or not?

Just in case anyone is in doubt... This is a joke! Okay?

 

[ViaCrucis]

The idea of a "missing link" is itself kind of an outdated concept isn't it?

As far as birds/dinosaurs go, at this point we don't even talk about birds "evolving from dinosaurs", birds are simply dinosaurs, the only dinosaurs that survived the K-Pg extinction event and which have survived until the present day.

This is like if all mammals except manatees died out, and people were trying to figure out how manatees were related to mammals. Manatees simply are mammals, a very small subset of all mammals. But the only surviving mammals were manatees, then we'd have a lot of questions without answers. At least at first, until we started to start learning more. Which is exactly the situation with birds.

Birds are simply a very small subset of all dinosaurs that survived and which are still around. In fact, birds are only a handful of birds that survived. There were several types of flying dinosaurs (aka "birds"), the neognaths (most birds alive today from pigeons to chickens) and paleognaths (ostriches, kiwis, the extinct moas, etc) are just the only two surviving groups.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FaithT]

The idea of a "missing link" is itself kind of an outdated concept isn't it?

As far as birds/dinosaurs go, at this point we don't even talk about birds "evolving from dinosaurs", birds are simply dinosaurs, the only dinosaurs that survived the K-Pg extinction event and which have survived until the present day.

This is like if all mammals except manatees died out, and people were trying to figure out how manatees were related to mammals. Manatees simply are mammals, a very small subset of all mammals. But the only surviving mammals were manatees, then we'd have a lot of questions without answers. At least at first, until we started to start learning more. Which is exactly the situation with birds.

Birds are simply a very small subset of all dinosaurs that survived and which are still around. In fact, birds are only a handful of birds that survived. There were several types of flying dinosaurs (aka "birds"), the neognaths (most birds alive today from pigeons to chickens) and paleognaths (ostriches, kiwis, the extinct moas, etc) are just the only two surviving groups.

-CryptoLutheran

Didn’t you tell me that you’re LCMS Lutheran? If so, is believing that ok with the LCMS Church?

 

[The Barbarian]

The idea of a "missing link" is itself kind of an outdated concept isn't it?

Actually, it's a misunderstanding. It wasn't "missing links"; it was "missing lynx." And they've found it:

Ghezzo, E., Boscaini, A., Madurell-Malapeira, J. et al. ​

Lynx remains from the Pleistocene of Valdemino cave (Savona, Northwestern Italy), and the oldest occurrence of Lynx spelaeus (Carnivora, Felidae). ​

Rend. Fis. Acc. Lincei 26, 87–95 (2015). https://doi.org/10.1007/s12210-014-0363-4​

(WFTH-I)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Didn’t you tell me that you’re LCMS Lutheran? If so, is believing that ok with the LCMS Church?

I'm not LCMS, I am formerly ELCA but currently AALC which is in altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS. Though the AALC, like the LCMS, does take an official position in favor of a literal interpretation of the six days of creation, I don't. Like in virtually all Lutheran synods, when you get down to the congregational level, there are plenty of diverse views. I'm associating with the AALC because I wanted a church that embraced Lutheran Confessionalism. However, I am aware that I have views and opinions which are not officially sanctioned by the AALC, for example on political and social issues I tend more toward the left. However, at least at my church, there is a firm separation of Pulpit and Politics. And if you were to take a survey of all the members of the congregation you'd probably find a diverse set of opinions and views.

The only time I've been uncomfortable in my new church was this last Sunday, where a couple of patriotic songs were sung in honor of Memorial Day. I don't believe nationalistic music belongs in the Mass/Divine Service.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FaithT]

I'm not LCMS, I am formerly ELCA but currently AALC which is in altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS. Though the AALC, like the LCMS, does take an official position in favor of a literal interpretation of the six days of creation, I don't. Like in virtually all Lutheran synods, when you get down to the congregational level, there are plenty of diverse views. I'm associating with the AALC because I wanted a church that embraced Lutheran Confessionalism. However, I am aware that I have views and opinions which are not officially sanctioned by the AALC, for example on political and social issues I tend more toward the left. However, at least at my church, there is a firm separation of Pulpit and Politics. And if you were to take a survey of all the members of the congregation you'd probably find a diverse set of opinions and views.

The only time I've been uncomfortable in my new church was this last Sunday, where a couple of patriotic songs were sung in honor of Memorial Day. I don't believe nationalistic music belongs in the Mass/Divine Service.

-CryptoLutheran

What do you think the LCMS and AALC would think of the idea that birds are dinosours?

 

[ViaCrucis]

What do you think the LCMS and AALC would think of the idea that birds are dinosours?

You mean like the national and regional leadership? No clue. I don't know them personally. Though in after church chats with one of the retired pastors (he was the interim pastor when I first started attending) I can tell you that he has no problem with old earth/evolution. We had a bit of a nerdy dinosaur talk a couple Sundays ago.

While if you go to the official websites of the ELCA, LCMS, TAALC, etc you'll get official statements, more liberal on the ELCA side, and more conservative on the LCMS/TAAL side. Things at the congregational level are never going to be carbon-copies of official denomination documents on every jot and tittle.

And, I don't think I'd want it to be otherwise. I don't want a church that is simply an echo chamber for me to never grow or be challenged; and I don't want to simply be a robotic parrot of denominational leadership. What I want is a faithful congregation of Christians where the Word is faithfully preached and the Sacraments are faithfully administered.

It is far more important to me that I hear those precious words of Absolution on Sunday morning, that my sins are indeed forgiven, and that I have Christ as my Savior over what the official position might be on a particular modern cultural debate. The reason I stopped participating in the ELCA is that, though on many issues I agree with the ELCA, I am ultimately uncomfortable with some stuff the ELCA tolerates under its banner.

For me there is a rather difficult situation I find myself in. While politically I am fairly left-leaning, and don't take a very Fundamentalist position on certain biblical interpretations (I don't, for example, have an inherent problem with the Historical Critical Method); I also believe in a strict adherence to Christian orthodoxy and in affirming, uncompromisingly, the exclusive allegiance to Christ as the one and only Lord, the Way to the Father, and affirming the Law as the Law and the Gospel as the Gospel. And I often get the sense that more "progressive" denominations can be more "flexible" on those things.

Which means there's no "perfect church" that I'm going to find. It doesn't exist. Whether the ELCA or the AALC I'm going to find things I like and don't like. At the end of the day it shouldn't be what I like or don't like, but what I need, spiritually. And that is Jesus Christ. So where am I going to go where I can be fed the fullness of the word of God? I hunger for it, I thirst for it. I need it. Without it I am dead.

O Jesus I need You ever moment. Have mercy on me O Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FaithT]

You mean like the national and regional leadership? No clue. I don't know them personally. Though in after church chats with one of the retired pastors (he was the interim pastor when I first started attending) I can tell you that he has no problem with old earth/evolution. We had a bit of a nerdy dinosaur talk a couple Sundays ago.

While if you go to the official websites of the ELCA, LCMS, TAALC, etc you'll get official statements, more liberal on the ELCA side, and more conservative on the LCMS/TAAL side. Things at the congregational level are never going to be carbon-copies of official denomination documents on every jot and tittle.

And, I don't think I'd want it to be otherwise. I don't want a church that is simply an echo chamber for me to never grow or be challenged; and I don't want to simply be a robotic parrot of denominational leadership. What I want is a faithful congregation of Christians where the Word is faithfully preached and the Sacraments are faithfully administered.

-CryptoLutheran

I think I believe in theistic evolution and and an old earth, (though, I’ve been questioning those beliefs lately). Still, I told my pastor this and he didn’t have a problem with it. I told him that I felt like I didn’t fit in and he said that I do.

 

[FaithT]

I'm not LCMS, I am formerly ELCA but currently AALC which is in altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS. Though the AALC, like the LCMS, does take an official position in favor of a literal interpretation of the six days of creation, I don't. Like in virtually all Lutheran synods, when you get down to the congregational level, there are plenty of diverse views. I'm associating with the AALC because I wanted a church that embraced Lutheran Confessionalism. However, I am aware that I have views and opinions which are not officially sanctioned by the AALC, for example on political and social issues I tend more toward the left. However, at least at my church, there is a firm separation of Pulpit and Politics. And if you were to take a survey of all the members of the congregation you'd probably find a diverse set of opinions and views.

The only time I've been uncomfortable in my new church was this last Sunday, where a couple of patriotic songs were sung in honor of Memorial Day. I don't believe nationalistic music belongs in the Mass/Divine Service.

-CryptoLutheran

What does an altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS mean, exactly?

 

[ViaCrucis]

What does an altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS mean, exactly?

Their ministers can preach at our pulpits and minister the Sacraments in our churches, and vice-versa. It means that we are in common confession with one another.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FaithT]

Their ministers can preach at our pulpits and minister the Sacraments in our churches, and vice-versa. It means that we are in common confession with one another.

-CryptoLutheran

Oh ok. That’s pretty neat.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think I believe in theistic evolution and and an old earth, (though, I’ve been questioning those beliefs lately). Still, I told my pastor this and he didn’t have a problem with it. I told him that I felt like I didn’t fit in and he said that I do.

And you do. For here is God's Word and Table. You belong.

Like I said, an official denominational statement on this issue doesn't necessarily mean people in the pews have to simply parrot every jot and tittle. What matters is Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FaithT]

You mean like the national and regional leadership? No clue. I don't know them personally. Though in after church chats with one of the retired pastors (he was the interim pastor when I first started attending) I can tell you that he has no problem with old earth/evolution. We had a bit of a nerdy dinosaur talk a couple Sundays ago.

While if you go to the official websites of the ELCA, LCMS, TAALC, etc you'll get official statements, more liberal on the ELCA side, and more conservative on the LCMS/TAAL side. Things at the congregational level are never going to be carbon-copies of official denomination documents on every jot and tittle.

And, I don't think I'd want it to be otherwise. I don't want a church that is simply an echo chamber for me to never grow or be challenged; and I don't want to simply be a robotic parrot of denominational leadership. What I want is a faithful congregation of Christians where the Word is faithfully preached and the Sacraments are faithfully administered.

It is far more important to me that I hear those precious words of Absolution on Sunday morning, that my sins are indeed forgiven, and that I have Christ as my Savior over what the official position might be on a particular modern cultural debate. The reason I stopped participating in the ELCA is that, though on many issues I agree with the ELCA, I am ultimately uncomfortable with some stuff the ELCA tolerates under its banner.

For me there is a rather difficult situation I find myself in. While politically I am fairly left-leaning, and don't take a very Fundamentalist position on certain biblical interpretations (I don't, for example, have an inherent problem with the Historical Critical Method); I also believe in a strict adherence to Christian orthodoxy and in affirming, uncompromisingly, the exclusive allegiance to Christ as the one and only Lord, the Way to the Father, and affirming the Law as the Law and the Gospel as the Gospel. And I often get the sense that more "progressive" denominations can be more "flexible" on those things.

Which means there's no "perfect church" that I'm going to find. It doesn't exist. Whether the ELCA or the AALC I'm going to find things I like and don't like. At the end of the day it shouldn't be what I like or don't like, but what I need, spiritually. And that is Jesus Christ. So where am I going to go where I can be fed the fullness of the word of God? I hunger for it, I thirst for it. I need it. Without it I am dead.

O Jesus I need You ever moment. Have mercy on me O Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

I agree, there is no perfect church. I’ve finally learned that much.