Covenants

[Hedgehog]

To further my own personal understanding, I need to have a better grip on exactly what the covenants are and what they mean/represent.
I would like to hear anyones ideas that they have.

First ( for me lol) lets establish what a covenant is, Dictionary.com says:

cov·e·nant

1. A binding agreement; a compact.
2. Law.
1. A formal sealed agreement or contract.
2. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract.
3. In the Bible, God's promise to the human race.

Ok, so a covenant is a binding agreement and God's promise to mankind, right?

Do I have that basic fact straight?

If there are 2 covenants, then what are the 2 promises from God? What was the promise under the old? What is the promise under the new?

The only eternal promises I can think of are that if you are unsaved, your wages are death. If you are saved, you have eternal life.


I have some ideas.

Im wondering if the old covenant represents unsaved, and the new covenant represents saved.Like the old man and the new man?

Does the Bible ever mention anything good about the old covenant?

It does say if the old covenant didnt have fault, there wouldnt have been a reason to have the new.
Can something from God have fault?
If your going to say the fault was with man, well then, mankind is who partakes in the new covenant also, is there room for fault in the new covenanrt also, and is there need for a 3rd?


This means they would be 2 concepts that have forever ran concurrantly.


Here are a couple questions I have/things I wonder:

1)Are there only 2 covenants? Old and new?

2)Some people believe there are more covenants, right? But are they the same covenants, just different names/people involved? or totally different.

3)Exactly what are the old and new covenants? Where is the scripture that tells what they are?

4)Was the old covenant given by God? Did it have anything to do with God?

5)Was the old covenant seen as a positive thing?



What do the scriptures say about the covenants?


It says that the old is a schoolmaster and once faith is there, the new is implimented.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

People could have faith at any time though, right?
Abraham had faith.
Once his faith came, was he no longer under a schoolmaster, even though the law had not yet been written?

Im wondering if the concepts are that, the law points out sin, under the old covenant, and its a schoolmaster, who shows you just how sinful you are........but once you have faith......and turn to the Lord......the veil is taken away and you understand and realize the truth... you are saved..


But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 2 Cor 3:12-16


What covenant is this?


Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

It seems like the covenant from God is one covenant. One eternal covenant.
Not two.


Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Psa 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Psa 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word [which] he commanded to a thousand generations.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.

What does it say about the new covenant?

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

It points out that it will be written on your heart.
Well we know that its your heart that matters and once you are saved the idea is that you will have a new heart/live Christ-like... so ANYONE who is saved would have Gods law written on their heart, right?

Its like so many of the concepts point to the same thing; being a better person,living Christ like after you're saved.

Baptism: washed of your sins, go under the water a sinner, come out saved.

Circumcision: cut off the flesh(sinful actions)

Old man/new man: kill the old sinful man, live a new Christlike life.

same as the old covenant/ new covenant:
Old covenant: stoney heart/before faith
New covenant: flesh heart/after faith


Any thoughts?

 

[billwald]

Analyze the covenants for yourself as if they were contracts, which they are. Exatly who are the parties involved? What are the obligations of each party? Are there unilateral and bilateral obligations? Conditional and unconditional? When is the contract fulfilled/ended?

 

[calmcoolandelected]

To further my own personal understanding, I need to have a better grip on exactly what the covenants are and what they mean/represent.
I would like to hear anyones ideas that they have.

First ( for me lol) lets establish what a covenant is, Dictionary.com says:

cov·e·nant

1. A binding agreement; a compact.
2. Law.
1. A formal sealed agreement or contract.
2. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract.
3. In the Bible, God's promise to the human race.

Ok, so a covenant is a binding agreement and God's promise to mankind, right?

Do I have that basic fact straight?

If there are 2 covenants, then what are the 2 promises from God? What was the promise under the old? What is the promise under the new?

The only eternal promises I can think of are that if you are unsaved, your wages are death. If you are saved, you have eternal life.


I have some ideas.

Im wondering if the old covenant represents unsaved, and the new covenant represents saved.Like the old man and the new man?

Does the Bible ever mention anything good about the old covenant?

It does say if the old covenant didnt have fault, there wouldnt have been a reason to have the new.
Can something from God have fault?
If your going to say the fault was with man, well then, mankind is who partakes in the new covenant also, is there room for fault in the new covenanrt also, and is there need for a 3rd?


This means they would be 2 concepts that have forever ran concurrantly.


Here are a couple questions I have/things I wonder:

1)Are there only 2 covenants? Old and new?

2)Some people believe there are more covenants, right? But are they the same covenants, just different names/people involved? or totally different.

3)Exactly what are the old and new covenants? Where is the scripture that tells what they are?

4)Was the old covenant given by God? Did it have anything to do with God?

5)Was the old covenant seen as a positive thing?



What do the scriptures say about the covenants?


It says that the old is a schoolmaster and once faith is there, the new is implimented.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

People could have faith at any time though, right?
Abraham had faith.
Once his faith came, was he no longer under a schoolmaster, even though the law had not yet been written?

Im wondering if the concepts are that, the law points out sin, under the old covenant, and its a schoolmaster, who shows you just how sinful you are........but once you have faith......and turn to the Lord......the veil is taken away and you understand and realize the truth... you are saved..


But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 2 Cor 3:12-16


What covenant is this?


Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

It seems like the covenant from God is one covenant. One eternal covenant.
Not two.


Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Psa 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Psa 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word [which] he commanded to a thousand generations.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.

What does it say about the new covenant?

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

It points out that it will be written on your heart.
Well we know that its your heart that matters and once you are saved the idea is that you will have a new heart/live Christ-like... so ANYONE who is saved would have Gods law written on their heart, right?

Its like so many of the concepts point to the same thing; being a better person,living Christ like after you're saved.

Baptism: washed of your sins, go under the water a sinner, come out saved.

Circumcision: cut off the flesh(sinful actions)

Old man/new man: kill the old sinful man, live a new Christlike life.

same as the old covenant/ new covenant:
Old covenant: stoney heart/before faith
New covenant: flesh heart/after faith


Any thoughts?

Hi Hedgehog,

I'm pressed for time right now and will try to post a response later. In the meantime, I thought I would recommend a great book called, "Christ of the Covenants" by O. Palmer Robertson.

CC&E

 

[ddub85]

@ hedgehog

Covenants
To further my own personal understanding, I need to have a better grip on exactly what the covenants are and what they mean/represent.
I would like to hear anyones ideas that they have.
First ( for me lol) lets establish what a covenant is, Dictionary.com says:
cov·e·nant
1. A binding agreement; a compact.
2. Law.
1. A formal sealed agreement or contract.
2. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract.
3. In the Bible, God's promise to the human race.
Ok, so a covenant is a binding agreement and God's promise to mankind, right?
Do I have that basic fact straight?
If there are 2 covenants, then what are the 2 promises from God? What was the promise under the old? What is the promise under the new?

If you read closely, you'll see that the New Covenant promises nothing new in terms of substance. The only thing that is "new" is a change in the people.

The only eternal promises I can think of are that if you are unsaved, your wages are death. If you are saved, you have eternal life.

And let's not forget the eternal promises to the nation of Israel.

I have some ideas.
Im wondering if the old covenant represents unsaved, and the new covenant represents saved.Like the old man and the new man?

No, I don't think so. The Old Covenant saves both Jew and Gentile, while the New Covenant fulfills God's promise to the Jews.

Does the Bible ever mention anything good about the old covenant?

The Old Covenant is good, as it brings grace to all saved people. Without it, how could Christ save us? We're saved under the Old Covenant.

It does say if the old covenant didnt have fault, there wouldnt have been a reason to have the new.

The fault with the Old Covenant is the people under it.

Can something from God have fault?

We're from God, and we have fault. As a matter of fact, everything created from God is less than God, and has fault I believe.

If your going to say the fault was with man, well then, mankind is who partakes in the new covenant also, is there room for fault in the new covenanrt also, and is there need for a 3rd?

With a new mind, the law in your heart and inward parts, the problem with fault would be internally solved.

This means they would be 2 concepts that have forever ran concurrantly.

Here are a couple questions I have/things I wonder:
1)Are there only 2 covenants? Old and new?

No.

2)Some people believe there are more covenants, right? But are they the same covenants, just different names/people involved? or totally different.

They serve different purposes.

3)Exactly what are the old and new covenants? Where is the scripture that tells what they are?

Old- Gen. 12:1-3. New- Jer. 31:31-34.

4)Was the old covenant given by God? Did it have anything to do with God?

It was given by God to all of mankind and gives every man the opportunity to come to God.

5)Was the old covenant seen as a positive thing?

It IS a positive thing, as it brings grace to us. Is it seen as a positive thing? I guess that would depend on who you ask.

What do the scriptures say about the covenants?

That the old includes all, and the new is for the Jews.

It says that the old is a schoolmaster and once faith is there, the new is implimented.

No, it doesn't say that. It says the LAW, not the Old Covenant, is our schoolmaster. It says the law isn't the Old Covenant.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
People could have faith at any time though, right?

Yes, but faith in what? Only faith in Christ saves.

Abraham had faith.

So true. Therefore, we can be sure that the law wasn't the Old Covenant, and faith the New Covenant, as Abraham was given the Old Covenant.

Once his faith came, was he no longer under a schoolmaster, even though the law had not yet been written?

He was never under the schoolmaster known as the law. The law came 430 years after he was given grace. He knew Christ (Jhn. 8:58).

Im wondering if the concepts are that, the law points out sin, under the old covenant, and its a schoolmaster, who shows you just how sinful you are........but once you have faith......and turn to the Lord......the veil is taken away and you understand and realize the truth... you are saved..

Amen!
But be aware that faith and grace was with man before the law.

But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 2 Cor 3:12-16

The veil, the law, is out of the way, and what remains is grace, as promised to both Jew and Gentile under the Old Covenant.

What covenant is this?

Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
It seems like the covenant from God is one covenant. One eternal covenant.
Not two.

If yu will look at the differences in the two covenants, you willl see NO CHANGE in the covenant itself. The only change is to the people, not the substance of the covenant.

Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
Psa 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Psa 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word [which] he commanded to a thousand generations.
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
What does it say about the new covenant?
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
It points out that it will be written on your heart.
Well we know that its your heart that matters and once you are saved the idea is that you will have a new heart/live Christ-like... so ANYONE who is saved would have Gods law written on their heart, right?

No. The New Covenant specifically states that when the law is written on your heart, you have no need to be taught the word of God, as you will already know it. That simply doesn't describe ANYONE on earth today that I know of.

Its like so many of the concepts point to the same thing; being a better person,living Christ like after you're saved.
Baptism: washed of your sins, go under the water a sinner, come out saved.
Circumcision: cut off the flesh(sinful actions)
Old man/new man: kill the old sinful man, live a new Christlike life.

Amen.

same as the old covenant/ new covenant:
Old covenant: stoney heart/before faith
New covenant: flesh heart/after faith

I disagree. For starters, the Bible tells us that the Old Covenant is for everyone, and the New Covenant is for the Jews.

Any thoughts?

I think you ask some great questions. I hope to hear some answers from many in this forum on this very important point.

God Bless!

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Hi Hedgehog,

I'm pressed for time right now and will try to post a response later. In the meantime, I thought I would recommend a great book called, "Christ of the Covenants" by O. Palmer Robertson.

CC&E

I have some out of town company coming this afternoon, but I did find this article with a little description of what is in O. Palmer Robertson's book that I thought you might enjoy reading.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/McMahonOverviewRobertsonsBookChrist.htm

 

[Rhetor]

Dear Hedgehog

You are discussing one of the more complex topics in theology, so good luck. I'll do what I can to help.

To begin, your analysis of the word Covenant missed a lot. In the OT, the word is berith, and in the NT, the word is diatheke. I will concentrate on the greek - NT diatheke. This word is translated covenant or testiment, two different meanings. A covenant is a deal or pact, but a testament is a will, as in 'the last will and testiment of John Smith, esq.'. The word in your bible can mean either - a sworn deal or a promise of inheritance. For this latter see particularly Heb 9:16-17 where the New Covenant/Testament is viewed as one.

The best way to see Covenants is that there are two real deals running through the bible - usually titled The Covenant of Works and The Covenant of Grace. The first (Works) is to all people, and says 'if you live perfectly you and your offspring will deserve heaven'. Adam was offered this deal and failed, so we are guilty in him; we are offered this deal and fail, so we are guilty ourselves; and Christ was offered this deal, and obeyed, so he (as a man) deserves heaven, as do all his descendants. In contrast the second (Grace) is the deal where Christ promises to adopt all those who trust in him for salvation, and thus, the faithful being his descendants, they are saved by his obedience, which has been offered to them since Eden.
The crucial idea of the Bible is that one is under one or more schemes of inheritance - that all inherit death in Adam, but some then inherit pardon and salvation in Christ. This second inheritance is freely promised to the faithful, and all are exhorted to convert to faith and thus be saved.

Note that both these covenants occur repeatedly throughout the Bible - God demands obedience and promises rewards for it, yet also tells all that they have failed and offers mercy to those who trust in him. The many historical covenants in scripture are instances of these two deals - God asking for obedience and god offering mercy. Thus often the Gospel can be spoken of as the promise/the promises/a covenant/the covenants/an inheritance/the good news without contradiction.

Not all promises are totally concerned merely (!) about the gospel. Many additional aspects surround God's dealings with men, such as demands for certain forms of behavior and/or worship at certain times, and the human response promising to obey God. Often the Bible will use shorthand for these various administrations, identifying them by the historial covenant agreement that instigated such eras. For example, often the Mosaic dispensation is referred to as being under moses, as being the mosaic covenant, or as being the law(of moses). The New Covenant / Old Covenant distinction is a historical distinction between those who inherited a covenant regulating outward behavior from Moses and those who inherited it directly from Christ. It is important because it distinguishes between two types of administration for God's people. Yet at the same time the promises of God are one - the reality of the promise of grace is the same to Abraham, Moses, David, and us. Only rules regulating outward behavior changed. The Law/Gospel distinction is a often a distinction between these two covenants, or often a distinction between those who trust in their obedience to God's commands (the covt of works) verses those who trust in Christ's promise (the covt of grace) ie Christians.

As an endnote I don't think O.P.Robinson really knows what he is talking about in Christ of the Covenants. I suggest Louis Berkhof or R.L.Dabney as good Reformed reading on the topic.

Hope I helped somewhat.

 

[Jerrysch]

To further my own personal understanding, I need to have a better grip on exactly what the covenants are and what they mean/represent.
I would like to hear anyones ideas that they have.

First ( for me lol) lets establish what a covenant is, Dictionary.com says:

cov·e·nant

1. A binding agreement; a compact.
2. Law.
1. A formal sealed agreement or contract.
2. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract.
3. In the Bible, God's promise to the human race.

Ok, so a covenant is a binding agreement and God's promise to mankind, right?

Do I have that basic fact straight?



Any thoughts?

How ya doing? Quite a while since we chatted

Actually your definition is not exactly correct, it is to wide. Scripture defines just to whom a covenant refers. Some of the covenants are to mankind at large, yet not all are. Type in covenant into your Bible search engine and read what the Bible has to say about the word Covenant. Here's a start.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=covenant&qs_version=31

 

[Jerrysch]

If there are 2 covenants, then what are the 2 promises from God? What was the promise under the old? What is the promise under the new?



Any thoughts?

Actually there is no less than six. I shall list (some of ) them.

The Covenant given to Noah Gen 6

The Covenant given to Abraham Gen 15

The Mosiac Covenant Ex 24 (and others)

The Davidic Covenant 2 Samuel 7 &23

The New covenant Jer 31:31

 

[Jerrysch]

The only eternal promises I can think of are that if you are unsaved, your wages are death. If you are saved, you have eternal life.



Any thoughts?

Actually these are not covenants at all.

All the covenants are eternal other than the Mosiac Covenant (of those I listed).

 

[Jerrysch]

I have some ideas.

Im wondering if the old covenant represents unsaved, and the new covenant represents saved.Like the old man and the new man?

Does the Bible ever mention anything good about the old covenant?



Any thoughts?

Which covenant do you refer to as the Old Covenant?

 

[Warri0rPoet]

First, a covenent is a deep promise or contract between two parties. The first covenent that God made was with Moses and the nation of Israel. Basically the entire book of Leviticus is laying down the conditions of the agreement. If the Israelites would follow God's laws he would be with and sheperd them. The problem is that the nation of Israel continually broke thier side of the agreement. Look at the entire book of Judges, it is about how they sin against God, they fall out of the covenent, fall into bondage and then cry out to God for deliverence. And because he is a merciful God he raises up a judge or leader to lead them out of bondage. Eventually the old covenent is pretty much completely lost by the nation of Israel, save a few prophets. If you read Isaiah 31:31-34 it basically lays out what the old and new covenents are. The old covenent was that of the law. The new covenant is that of Jesus christ. The old covenant was only ended by the death of Christ (death was the only way to end a covenant). And the new covenant where the law and will of God is placed in our minds and in our hearts was sealed by Jesus's blood (historically covenants were sealed by blood). When Christ rose from the dead he brought a new level of communion with God. We can know God/Jesus in our minds and in our hearts because he is alive today and he sealed the covenant so that even though we may not walk perfect before God, he accepts us as his own. The New Covenant is the Good news. Covenant means Testament right? The Old Testament is about the old Covenant and the New Testament is all about Jesus Christ and the New Covenant. I hope that you have received what I have written and if you need more clarification let me know, but you asked just the right question to get what the entire Bible is all about.
-Luke

 

[ddub85]

@ Warri0rPoet

First, a covenent is a deep promise or contract between two parties.
The first covenent that God made was with Moses and the nation of Israel.

Actually, that wasn't the first covenant. For instance, the covenant made with Abraham (Gen 12:1-3) preceded it.

Basically the entire book of Leviticus is laying down the conditions of the agreement. If the Israelites would follow God's laws he would be with and sheperd them. The problem is that the nation of Israel continually broke thier side of the agreement.

But let's not forget that God promised to execute the covenant regardless of what anyone did. The covenant wasn't ratified with man, it was a covenant ratified with God, by God (Gen 15:17).

Look at the entire book of Judges, it is about how they sin against God, they fall out of the covenent, fall into bondage and then cry out to God for deliverence. And because he is a merciful God he raises up a judge or leader to lead them out of bondage. Eventually the old covenent is pretty much completely lost by the nation of Israel, save a few prophets. If you read Isaiah 31:31-34 it basically lays out what the old and new covenents are. The old covenent was that of the law.

No, the Old Covenant is not the law. The law came 430 years after the Old Covenant (Gal 3:17).

The new covenant is that of Jesus christ. The old covenant was only ended by the death of Christ...

Where does the Bible say the Old Covenant ended?

... (death was the only way to end a covenant). And the new covenant where the law and will of God is placed in our minds and in our hearts was sealed by Jesus's blood (historically covenants were sealed by blood). When Christ rose from the dead he brought a new level of communion with God. We can know God/Jesus in our minds and in our hearts because he is alive today and he sealed the covenant so that even though we may not walk perfect before God, he accepts us as his own. The New Covenant is the Good news. Covenant means Testament right? The Old Testament is about the old Covenant and the New Testament is all about Jesus Christ and the New Covenant.

What are the changes between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? What are the differences?

God Bless!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What are the changes between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? What are the differences?

God Bless!

One brings "Death" the other brings "Life".

Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with Death will be atoned, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing Scourgepasses through,........

.Reve 16: 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, [each hailstone] about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the Scourge of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

 

[ddub85]

@ LittleLamb

One brings "Death" the other brings "Life".
Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with Death will be atoned, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing Scourgepasses
through,........

So... Israel's covenant with God, the Abrahamic covenant of Gen 12:1-3, was a covenant with death? An agreement with Sheol? I think not. This verse isn't speaking about this covenant.

God Bless!

 

[heymikey80]

@ LittleLamb


So... Israel's covenant with God, the Abrahamic covenant of Gen 12:1-3, was a covenant with death? An agreement with Sheol? I think not. This verse isn't speaking about this covenant.

God Bless!

Of course not, it's talking about the Old Covenant of Moses.

"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone [what covenant is carved in stone?], came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face [what covenant was delivered with the glowing face of Moses?] because of its glory, which was being brought to an end" 2 Cor 3:7
​

And of course, it's the covenant that's called "old".

"For to this day, when they read the old covenant" 2 Cor 3:14
​

Abraham's not mentioned here in 2 Corinthians 3. It's an imaginary fabrication to say it is. Your case is lacking. Your opinion is not the Biblical statement here, and has not been concluded from the Biblical data.

 

[ddub85]

@ heymikey

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
@ LittleLamb
So... Israel's covenant with God, the Abrahamic covenant of Gen 12:1-3, was a covenant with death? An agreement with Sheol? I think not. This verse isn't speaking about this covenant.

Of course not, it's talking about the Old Covenant of Moses.

The Old Covenant of Moses? So you just ignore the covenant that was previously established? You just neglect that covenant, and skip right to Moses, and claim that it is the Old Covenant? Deceptive at best. For
shame.

"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone [what covenant is carved in stone?], came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face [what covenant was delivered with the glowing face of Moses?] because of its glory, which was being brought to an end" 2 Cor 3:7
And of course, it's the covenant that's called "old"."For to this day, when they read the old covenant" 2 Cor 3:14

So in Gal 3:17, when it says "the covenant", what covenant is being spoken of in your opinion? And do we just ignore and neglect that covenant? Do we act as if it doesn't even exist? Do we pretend it doesn't count? (Unbelievable!).

Abraham's not mentioned here in 2 Corinthians 3. It's an imaginary fabrication to say it is. Your case is lacking. Your opinion is not the Biblical statement here, and has not been concluded from the Biblical data.

2Cr 3:11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.
Then what REMAINS? It can't be the New Covenant that REMAINS, as, even according to you, it wasn't there yet. So... what REMAINS? Huh?

It's obvious. It's the Abrahamic Covenant, the Old Covenant.

God Bless!

 

[ddub85]

@ heymikey

Of course neither Greek word is a good replacement for "inaugurate", as you must know if you're familiar with them. The first is essentially "accomplish", which holds the meaning of completion and ending that the Apostle doesn't mean: the context calls for a beginning, not an ending.

Exactly! And so what was begun? Christ brought (OBTAINED!) grace to all, Jew and Gentile alike. What was ended? The law prevented those under it from obtaining grace under the Old Covenant. When the law came into effect, grace could not abound. When Christ removed the weight of the law, grace could abound. He brought that grace to those under the law, and to us Gentiles as well. We were included in that.

The second refers explicitly to law, and so doesn't fit what the Apostle is referring to: indestructible promises.

And this is another thing you don't seem to quite understand. The law is an indestructible promise. The law is at the very center of the New Covenant.

And so the Apostle doesn't use them. He can't. They don't carry the meaning of a covenant newly established on promises which are greater than what was accomplished before, which of course is a running theme
in Hebrews.

What you're neglecting is the FACT that one was obtained, and the other was established. Both things were accomplished with the blood of Christ. The covenant to Abraham didn't fail, nor disappear without
completion. That promise INCLUDES Gentiles, while the New Covenant NEVER includes Gentiles.

The word he does use does put the New Covenant into effect, establishing it anew as a covenant then 2000 years ago.

Now that's pretty bizarre, considering that he never said it was in effect, that he used a DIFFERENT word in the same statement, which means less than in effect as compared to the other word, and that he later says the Old Covenant is still in effect. What you're saying just simply doesn't add up.

And so it is in effect, even today. egkainizo puts the covenant newly into effect. It's what the word means. =shrug=

And so what does tugchano do? If egkainizo puts in effect, what does tugchano do? And why did the writer use these two DIFFERENT words in the same statement? Why did he separate the two covenants? Why did he use two different words to speak about the two different covenants? You know why. Anyone who thinks logically, and is honest knows why.

God Bless!

 

[heymikey80]

So in Gal 3:17, when it says "the covenant", what covenant is being spoken of in your opinion? And do we just ignore and neglect that covenant? Do we act as if it doesn't even exist? Do we pretend it doesn't count? (Unbelievable!).

Nope, and as you've answered with exclamations, you're prejudicing your response.

the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. Gal 3:17
​

The covenant previously ratified is the covenant with Abraham -- which is fulfilled to Christ inaugurating the New Covenant. But it's not "the Old Covenant", which is clearly Moses. 2 Cor 3:14-16:

until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
​

It's obvious. It's the Abrahamic Covenant, the Old Covenant.

It's painfully clear that the Abrahamic Covenant is not the Old Covenant.

 

[ddub85]

@ heymikey

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
So in Gal 3:17, when it says "the covenant", what covenant is being spoken of in your opinion? And do we just ignore and neglect that covenant? Do we act as if it doesn't even exist? Do we pretend it doesn't count? (Unbelievable!).

Nope, and as you've answered with exclamations, you're prejudicing your response. the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not
invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. Gal 3:17
The covenant previously ratified is the covenant with Abraham -- which is fulfilled to Christ inaugurating the New Covenant.

What you're saying doesn't really make sense. Let me make sure I understand exactly what you're saying here.
The Abr. covenant was ratified, but not implemented, then fulfilled when Christ brought the New Covenant,... but never implemented. Is that what you're saying? The Abr. Covenant was ratified, but never put into effect because the New Covenant came.

If this is the case, what was the point of the Abrahamic Covenant? Also, where are we Gentiles included in salvation? Where does the Bible say we fit in? And why did Paul mention this promise in Gal 3:8?

But it's not "the Old Covenant", which is clearly Moses. 2 Cor 3:14-16:
until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

This simply says that when the Old Covenant is read, the veil remains. Then it tells us what the veil is; the law. It doesn't exclude the Abrahamic Covenant from being the Old Covenant, as you're suggesting. The law isn't the promise (covenant), the promise to Abraham is the covenant, as confirmed by Gal 3:18;

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
It's obvious. It's the Abrahamic Covenant, the Old Covenant.

It's painfully clear that the Abrahamic Covenant is not the Old Covenant.

How could the law be the promise when you consider Gal 3:18? Paul tells us clearly that the law IS NOT the promise, yet you insist that it is. You are contradicting Paul.

God Bless!

 

[heymikey80]

What you're saying doesn't really make sense. Let me make sure I understand exactly what you're saying here.
The Abr. covenant was ratified, but not implemented, then fulfilled when Christ brought the New Covenant,... but never implemented. Is that what you're saying? The Abr. Covenant was ratified, but never put into effect because the New Covenant came.

Nope.

Abrahamic: ratified, put into effect.
Mosaic: ratified, put into effect.
New: ratified, put into effect.

This simply says that when the Old Covenant is read, the veil remains. Then it tells us what the veil is; the law. It doesn't exclude the Abrahamic Covenant from being the Old Covenant, as you're suggesting. The law isn't the promise (covenant), the promise to Abraham is the covenant, as confirmed by Gal 3:18;

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

2 Cor 3 identifies the Old Covenant as Moses. It interchanges them directly: "when Moses is read ... at the reading of the Old Covenant".

Moses isn't Abraham. Kinda ... obvious. So Mosaic Covenant isn't Abrahamic Covenant, also concluded from Gal 3:15 (430 years later: not the same covenant).

Therefore: Old Covenant: not Abrahamic.

How could the law be the promise when you consider Gal 3:18? Paul tells us clearly that the law IS NOT the promise, yet you insist that it is. You are contradicting Paul.

Nope. Never did. I await you to support your allegation of something I never said.