Covenants - Dual or Separate?

[Dispy]

Likewise on your more excellent post, Dispy, I post based on Scripture, from time in it. Fact is that when I encountered the Mid-Acts Perspective, I right off laid it aside an reread the entire Bible. It became obvious to me that I had been wrong, and that Mid-Acts is the only sound view. As for the notion against agreeing with those " of like precious faith," this very passage knocks holes in that.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

I was reared in a strong major denominational home, educated in its "christian school", church and studied my Bible every night before going to bed. Yes, I learned alot about the Bible but couldn't understand it. It became a contradictory book to me.

My pastors and teachers couldn't reconcile the seemingly contradictions I found. They could only give me church doctrine answers that didn't answer my questions.

It wasn't until Pastor Stam showed me the mid-Acts method of rightly dividing the Word; that the Bible became very clear.

It appears to me that notreligus cannot distinguish between prophecy that pertains to the nation of Israel, and the mystery that pertains to the Church, the Body of Christ.

 

[Danoh]

In the end, I saw no other avenue but to agree, per Ephesians 2, that whenever you find Scripture dealing with people on the basis of that circumcision in the flesh made by hands (Genesis thru Acts 9 and again, in Hebrews thru Revelation) you are NOT dealing with the Body of Christ (Romans thru Philemon), you are dealing with God's Hebrew nation's instruction in righteousness.

But people come up with notions; one individual related to me that Matthew thru John is instruction for him because he is a Christian, a follower of Christ, and that is where you find Christ as your example. He simply rationalizes away passages having to do with said Jesus "after the flesh" observing and reminding others to keep the Law of Moses, etc. You just cannot reason with some people. God encounters that, His prophets did, the Son did, the Spirit did, and His finished Word continues to... as if the reminder, "rightly dividing the word of truth" is simply "too doctrinal.."

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[Dispy]

In the end, I saw no other avenue but to agree, per Ephesians 2, that whenever you find Scripture dealing with people on the basis of that circumcision in the flesh made by hands (Genesis thru Acts 9 and again, in Hebrews thru Revelation) you are NOT dealing with the Body of Christ (Romans thru Philemon), you are dealing with God's Hebrew nation's instruction in righteousness.

But people come up with notions; one individual related to me that Matthew thru John is instruction for him because he is a Christian, a follower of Christ, and that is where you find Christ as your example. He simply rationalizes away passages having to do with said Jesus "after the flesh" observing and reminding others to keep the Law of Moses, etc. You just cannot reason with some people. God encounters that, His prophets did, the Son did, the Spirit did, and His finished Word continues to... as if the reminder, "rightly dividing the word of truth" is simply "too doctrinal.."

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

Most denominationalist that I encounter believe that the doctrine of Law and the doctrine of Grace are really the same thing.

My education and training sold me on that. That is why I saw the Bible as a contradictory book, and I tried to live both at the same time. Talk about one being confused, I was one of those.

When Pastor Stam showed me that there was a transition from the dispensation of the Law to Israel, and the dispensation of Grace to the Body of Christ, my Bible became an understandable book. Seemingly contradictions disappeared.

Pastor Stam changed the lives of many, and I still thank God for his teaching.

I have been told that his book "THINGS THAT DIFFER", has brought more dispensational pastors into the Grace Movement, more then any other book.

 

[notreligus]

I have just reviewed all my posts on this thread. Guess how many "cut and paste" jobs I found 0.

If one wants to understand the Bible, one must study the New Testament in light of the Old testament. God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11. From Abram, in Gen. 12, through Moses, and on into Acts 8, God was dealing ONLY with the nation of Israel and under the Law.. If one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte).

From Acts 9, the conversion of Saul/Paul, God is dealing with Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law.

Even before Jesus returned to heaven in Acts 1:3, He was still telling His disciples things "...pertaining to the Kingdom" what He taught them to pray for in Matt. 6:10. There were no Gentile present at Pentecost, only Jews and proselytes.

Therefore, How could the Church, the Body of Christ, Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. have started at Pentecost. Even Peter in Acts 10 was still following the Jewish dietary Laws. When Peter returned to Jerusalem, in Acts 11:3, James accused him of eating with with the uncircumcised (vs. 3).

PLEASE explain to me how the Church, the Body of Christ, as stated above, was founded at Pentecost. If you will do that, with scriptural support, I PROMISE I will change my views and believe every word you write.

I can't make it any easier for you.

Looking forward to your response. If you don't respond I will know why.

If I don't jump through hoops for you it's because I can't live at this forum.

They look cut and past to me. But I've been reading them at other forums, too, so they start to look the same after years have gone by.

Explain to me why a temporary covenant, which is obsolete, must be restored.

Explain to me why God created mankind and His intent was to have a relationship with one people in one location (Eden), but ultra-dispensationals have changed the Bible and tell us that God intends to have two people and have them in two locations. That also eliminates the need for the reconciliation of all of mankind, and only Christ Jesus could reconcile mankind back to God Almighty. The Bible is against you. Without Christ as our Mediator and without His blood presented in Heaven then there is no reconciliation and thus there is no salvation. The Law never saved anyone and never could.

Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

You believe that Christ and Joel spoke of and to the Jews alone. You are delineating Israel from Gentiles based on race, and you are interpreting the New Testament by the Old Testament, which is backwards thinking. So, we'll never agree until you change your mind. I've already tried it your way. It's wrong. God said that there is no difference between Jew and Greek/Gentile in Christ. Now you'll say that Israel is not yet in Christ. That's an answer that goes against God's original plan. Read this: One people and one relationship with God. That is God's plan. You either go along with His plan or go with yours. You and I make different choices.


There are no options when it comes to this. We must agree on Who Christ is, What He did, and Why He did it. Ultra-dispensationalism creates roadblocks to agreement on those points.

 

[Danoh]

Notreligious, you write that the Law never saved anyone and never could. I agree with that and I am certain Dispy does. You write it as if in disagreement, however, as if we believe otherwise. Clearly, you do not understand the Mid-Acts Perspective; for you continually voice assertions against it that we do not hold to.

Under the Law Israel AGREED TO keep BY FAITH for righteousness ends when Israel believes said Law that Christ had been said Law's Prophesied Messiah. Believing that is also keeping said Law BY FAITH. The New Covenant then enables them to walk in that Law's statutes - for all this is their Covenant between them and God. Then, it is not FOR righteousness BY FAITH but because of HIS righteousness. And by this, He makes their old "FOR" - He renders it done away, for He did that at the Cross. Israel simply has to avail itself of same BY FAITH, which is what Hebrews is explaining to them. To not belive so, is to neglect said salvation which at the first had been spoken unto them (Matt. thru John) and was confirmed unto them (Early Acts) by those that had heard (obeyed) Him (in Matt. thru John).

You either agree with the distinction between the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that passages like Ephesians 2 point out had once been the case, or you do not. As for the Law Israel was under it for righteousness "by faith" because that is what Israel agreed to at Sinai. The New Covenant - in Christ's blood - will enable them to keep said Law THEY agreed to keep.

We also agree on the Romans 5 passage you cited. How could we not, as it is Grace truth.

Obviously, we disagree on distinctions in peoples.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[notreligus]

Notreligious, you write that the Law never saved anyone and never could. I agree with that and I am certain Dispy does. You write it as if in disagreement, however, as if we believe otherwise. Clearly, you do not understand the Mid-Acts Perspective; for you continually voice assertions against it that we do not hold to.

Under the Law Israel AGREED TO keep BY FAITH for righteousness ends when Israel believes said Law that Christ had been said Law's Prophesied Messiah. Believing that is also keeping said Law BY FAITH. The New Covenant then enables them to walk in that Law's statutes - for all this is their Covenant between them and God. Then, it is not FOR righteousness BY FAITH but because of HIS righteousness. And by this, He makes their old "FOR" - He renders it done away, for He did that at the Cross. Israel simply has to avail itself of same BY FAITH, which is what Hebrews is explaining to them. To not belive so, is to neglect said salvation which at the first had been spoken unto them (Matt. thru John) and was confirmed unto them (Early Acts) by those that had heard (obeyed) Him (in Matt. thru John).

You either agree with the distinction between the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision that passages like Ephesians 2 point out had once been the case, or you do not. As for the Law Israel was under it for righteousness "by faith" because that is what Israel agreed to at Sinai. The New Covenant - in Christ's blood - will enable them to keep said Law THEY agreed to keep.

We also agree on the Romans 5 passage you cited. How could we not, as it is Grace truth.

Obviously, we disagree on distinctions in peoples.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

I studied it for ten years. I know it quite well. I would state what I said about the Law as a matter of practice. You and Dispy may not be the only ones to read these posts. I have literally hundreds of books by dispensationals, including Stam and Sir Robert Anderson. I was dispensational for over 40 years. I know of Dispy from another forum. He once told me that he could not understand the Bible and turned to Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. If he had just understood that mankind needed reconciliation and Christ provided that he wouldn't have been confused.

I left my dispensational beliefs behind when I heard Les Feldick proclaim that the Church would never set foot on the Earth after the rapture because the Church would be in the New Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem will remain planetary to the Earth. Anyone who believes that belongs in a padded cell. I know that sounds harsh but the teaching is based on insanity. Try to sell that to other Christans and even to non-ultra dispensationals. They'll think you're crazy.

You guys ought be discussing these things in Eschatology, too. Eschatology is not limited precisely to end-times. How we get there and why we get there - the theology behind it - is also eschatology.

God created mankind to have a relationship with Him. He did not create two different classes of people. When you give Israel preference you are ignoring what Paul said in Galatians 3:16 about Christ being the fulfillment. There is no way around that without re-writing the Bible.

Reconciliation is a big deal.

No distinction over race or real estate is a big deal.

The difference between fulfillment and consummation is a big deal.

God's envisioning the church - one people - before the foundation of the world is a big deal.

Israel does not need another 1,000 years to study the Torah.

 

[Dispy]

Part 1

I have just reviewed all my posts on this thread. Guess how many "cut and paste" jobs I found 0.

If one wants to understand the Bible, one must study the New Testament in light of the Old testament. God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11. From Abram, in Gen. 12, through Moses, and on into Acts 8, God was dealing ONLY with the nation of Israel and under the Law.. If one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte).

From Acts 9, the conversion of Saul/Paul, God is dealing with Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law.

Even before Jesus returned to heaven in Acts 1:3, He was still telling His disciples things "...pertaining to the Kingdom" what He taught them to pray for in Matt. 6:10. There were no Gentile present at Pentecost, only Jews and proselytes.

Therefore, How could the Church, the Body of Christ, Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. have started at Pentecost. Even Peter in Acts 10 was still following the Jewish dietary Laws. When Peter returned to Jerusalem, in Acts 11:3, James accused him of eating with with the uncircumcised (vs. 3).

PLEASE explain to me how the Church, the Body of Christ, as stated above, was founded at Pentecost. If you will do that, with scriptural support, I PROMISE I will change my views and believe every word you write.

I can't make it any easier for you.

notreligus
If I don't jump through hoops for you it's because I can't live at this forum.

BigD:
For one that can't live on this forum, I see you on it often enough. You remind me of the camel that has its nose under the tent.
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notreligus:
They look cut and past to me. But I've been reading them at other forums, too, so they start to look the same after years have gone by.

BigD:
That may be because I post one other forums also, and spread the same message. I've been on them for several years.
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notreligus:
Explain to me why a temporary covenant, which is obsolete, must be restored.

BigD:
Jer. 31:"Behold the day come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith the Lord>"

That covenant was based upon the Law, and Israel couldn't keep it. That is why made the old covenant obsolete.

Now you and I know that Jesus didn't break one jot or tittle of the Law. He fulfilled every aspect of it.

The new covenant is also based upon the Law, and when Jesus returns He will write the Law on everyone's heart. Therefore, they will be able to keep it.
-----------
notreligus:
Explain to me why God created mankind and His intent was to have a relationship with one people in one location (Eden), but ultra-dispensationals have changed the Bible and tell us that God intends to have two people and have them in two locations. That also eliminates the need for the reconciliation of all of mankind, and only Christ Jesus could reconcile mankind back to God Almighty. The Bible is against you. Without Christ as our Mediator and without His blood presented in Heaven then there is no reconciliation and thus there is no salvation. The Law never saved anyone and never could.

BigD:
Here come one of your dreaded "cut and Paste" jobs. I will defend it as if I had written it.

The following is from an Article by Tracy Plessinger titled: "The Bible's Most Misunderstood Verse".

>SNIP<
God' Eternal Unchanging Plan

Scripture makes very clear that God has only ever had one plan. That plan has been in effect since before the world began and will be fulfilled only after time is no more, in the dispensation of the fullness of time.

"Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" Titus 1:1,2

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Ephesians 1:9,10.

The heart of this plan is seen in the passage from Ephesians quoted above. God's eternal purpose and plan is to glorify His son, Jesus Christ, to "gather together in one all things in Christ". This eternal purpose can also be seen in Paul's letter to the church at Philippi.

Wherefore God also had highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of thing in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth: And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Chris is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11.

Clearly, God's eternal purpose is to have all creatures glorify the Son, Jesus Christ, Which in turns brings honor to the Father. It is also clear from two of the passages quoted above that this one eternal purpose of God is to be carried out in two different locations, on earth and in heaven.

There is however, an impediment to God's plan. There is one who desires to usurp the rightful position of Christ as the one that is glorified by heaven and earth. The being who desires to have the honor and glory that belong to Christ is Satan. In the book of Isaiah, we read of his selfish desire.

For thou [Lucifer] hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:13,14.

It is very significant that Satan uses a specific title of God when he sets out on this course of rebellion. He refers to God as, "the most high". That title is a title that relates specifically to God's ownership of heaven and earth. This can be seen as we look at the first time that that title is used in Scripture.

And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:...And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, Genesis 14:19,22.

What we are read in scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, is an account of Satan's attempt to become the possessor of heaven and earth, to replace Jesus Christ as the ruler of the universe. We also learn of God's counterattack and that God's plan, in the end, will overcome Satan's plan. In the end, Jesus Christ will alone be glorified in heaven and earth.

Dispensational Bible study simply acknowledges the fact that Satan has attacked God's authority on two fronts, the heaven and the earth, and that God will repel that attack and be victorious on those same two fronts. The first person to rightly divide the Word of Truth was not some modern-day dispensationalist. It was God.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

God presents His creative act as an act that produced a divided universe, a universe that consists of two parts, the heaven, and the earth. In order to fully understand God's plan we must understand how that plan will be carried out in both of these areas.

Gods Plan on the earth:
As we continue in the first chapter of the book of Genesis, we immediately see where God's plan is focused initially.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:2

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the foul of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for light in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:14,15

It is clear that the creation described in Genesis 1 is focused exclusively on the earth. It is the earth that is said to be "without form, and void". It is the earth that man is told to "replenish" and "subdue", Even the light that God created in heaven were for the purpose of giving light "upon the earth."

After the flood, God gave similar instructions to Noah and his sons.

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Genesis 9:1

With the setting aside of Abram to begin the formation of the nation Israel we see that the focus was still on the earth.

The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them: and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. Isaiah 35:1

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee, For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. and the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings ot the brightness of thy shining. Isaiah 60:1-3

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold broken to pieces together and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth....And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2:35-44

Notice that Isaiah points to the wonderful utopian conditions on the renewed earth and how the Gentile nations will flow into that blessing. Daniel emphasizes the fact that the "God of heaven" will establish a kingdom that fill "the whole earth". These passages are typical of the message that the prophets brought to the nation Israel. They were continuing God's focus on reestablishing His authority on the earthly part of His creation.

Christ was presented to Israel as the rightful heir to the earthly throne of David.

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:30-33

Christ taught His disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to the earth.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:9,10

The apostles tied their message and its returning, triumphant Messiah to the fulfillment of the prophetic Scriptures.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the Mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21.

All of the facts above show us that during the time frame covered from Genesis 1:2 to Acts 9, focus of God's message was on the earth.

God Plan for the Heaven
To be continued.

 

[Dispy]

Part 2
God's Plan in the Heaven
In the 9th chapter of Acts we see a significant change begin to take place as Jesus Christ speaks from heaven to a man who would become the Apostle of the Gentiles.

And as he [Saul] journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick agains the pricks. Acts 9:3-5

Clearly, Paul had a calling that was heavenly in nature. The setting aside of Paul and the formation of the Body of Christ marks a change in God's focus from the earth to heaven. God's basic plan to glorify Christ has not changed at all. His purpose is still the same one that He conceived before the foundation of the world. With the ministry of Paul, He is now simply revealing the heavenly aspect of that plan. In the book of Ephesians, Paul makes quite clear that the focus of the Body of Christ is heavenly.

The Body of Christ is blessed in heavenly places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

The Body of Christ is seated in heavenly places.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sip together in heavenly place in Christ Jesus; Ephesians 2:6

The Body of Christ is ministering to beings in heavenly places.
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Ephesians 3:10

The Body of Christ has at it head a Christ who has ascended above and therefore rules over heavenly places.

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:10

The Body of Chris is fighting a war with beings in heavenly places.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the drkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

Paul is also careful to make sure that we understand that our eternal destiny is in the heavenlies, not on the earth.
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saour, the Lord Jesus Christ; Whom shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unot himself. Philippians 3:20,21

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the vocie of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: an so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. I Thessalonians 4:16-18

Notice that our comfort is not found in the return of Christ to establish an earthly kingdom, as it was for Israel. Our comfort is found in Christ catching us off this earth to reign with Him for all eternity in the heavenlies. Our eternal destiny and conversation is in heaven and not on the earth.

We should note one other important truth about all of this information about God purpose being fulfilled in heaven. It was all kept secret in the mind and heart of God until it was revealed to and through the Apostle Paul.

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made know to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans:25,26

Notice that Paul says that the information he is preaching was "kept secret since the world began". This is a marked contrast to Peter's preachings things "which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (See Acts 3:21, quoted above) God's plans concerning the heavens were kept secret until revealed to and through the Apostle Paul.

These facts show us that the truth of God's plan being fulfilled in heaven, the truth under which we operate today, is found exclusively in the writings of the Apostle Paul to the Chruch, the Body of Christ. We must go to those writings to understand how God will fulfill His purpose in heaven, and how we should live based on our place in that heavenly plan.

The fulfillment of God's Plan.

We have already seen that in the book of Ephesians God reveals the fulfillment of His lplan in eternity future, both on the earth and in heaven, as all things are gathered \"together in one...in Christ". As God closes out His revelation to man we see that He has in fact brought everthing full circle.

And I say a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

God's one eternal plan will be fulfilled, both in heaven and on earth. Jesus Christ will be honored and glorified in all the universe.

The only way that we can truly understand the entirety of god's plan is to rightly divide the Word of Truth and realize that He is working to carry out this plan in two areas, the heaven and the earth.

notreligus, I will respond to the rest of your post later.

 

[notreligus]

Dispy, you can save yourself some time.

Anyone can post a Scripture and say, "Here's what it means." But where I believe you are wrong is that you have studied this Hyper/Ultra/Mid-Acts position, and THEN you have gone back to the Scriptures with that belief system. That is taking your beliefs TO the Scriptures instead of getting your beliefs FROM the Scriptures.

You use Old Testament to prove New Testament. That is wrong. That is backwards. I won't argue with you about that. There is nothing to argue. White is white and black is black. You'll never convince me that white is black. Don't bother.

Who do you think this passage is for?


Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

This passage is for everyone. Jew, Gentile or Eskimo. It doesn't matter. All come into this world with the curse of sin and death. You can't escape it no matter what your pedigree might be. Your dividing people into Israel and Gentiles and saying that God deals with one group one way and another group another is completely against Scripture. Paul would tell you if he were standing before you. In fact, he has already told you in this verse. When you divide people then you have divided the cross. The cross is where everything happened. Don't mock the cross. That is where Christ took on all of the sins of all of mankind, Jew, Gentile and any other people group you want to throw in. He paid with His life to reconcile ALL to God Almighty. I'm not messing with that. If you want to that's on you not me.

 

[Dispy]

I have just reviewed all my posts on this thread. Guess how many "cut and paste" jobs I found 0.

If one wants to understand the Bible, one must study the New Testament in light of the Old testament. God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11. From Abram, in Gen. 12, through Moses, and on into Acts 8, God was dealing ONLY with the nation of Israel and under the Law.. If one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte).

From Acts 9, the conversion of Saul/Paul, God is dealing with Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law.

Even before Jesus returned to heaven in Acts 1:3, He was still telling His disciples things "...pertaining to the Kingdom" what He taught them to pray for in Matt. 6:10. There were no Gentile present at Pentecost, only Jews and proselytes.

Therefore, How could the Church, the Body of Christ, Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. have started at Pentecost. Even Peter in Acts 10 was still following the Jewish dietary Laws. When Peter returned to Jerusalem, in Acts 11:3, James accused him of eating with with the uncircumcised (vs. 3).

PLEASE explain to me how the Church, the Body of Christ, as stated above, was founded at Pentecost. If you will do that, with scriptural support, I PROMISE I will change my views and believe every word you write.

I can't make it any easier for you.

You have not responded to one iota of the above. If you will show me what I requested, I PROMISE to believe every word you write.

I CAN'T MAKE IT ANY EASIER FOR YOU!!!

Dispy, you can save yourself some time.

Anyone can post a Scripture and say, "Here's what it means." But where I believe you are wrong is that you have studied this Hyper/Ultra/Mid-Acts position, and THEN you have gone back to the Scriptures with that belief system. That is taking your beliefs TO the Scriptures instead of getting your beliefs FROM the Scriptures.

You use Old Testament to prove New Testament. That is wrong. That is backwards. I won't argue with you about that. There is nothing to argue. White is white and black is black. You'll never convince me that white is black. Don't bother.

Religious belief systems come from studying the Bible. I was educated in a church school where we started out every day with Bible study. I went to a major denominational church and Sunday school every Sunday, and read my Bible every night. Every Monday morning we had a 12 question essay test on the past week Bible study. Rarely did I ever miss one question. I knew what I was taught, and believed it.

However, as I grew older and continued in my Bible study, on my own,the Bible became a contradictory book. My teachers ans pastor could not reconcile the seemingly contradictions I found. all I got was church doctrine answers that didn't answer my questions. Went "church hoping" to every major denomination looking for answers. Got basically the same answers of all of them. This caused me to go unchurched for about 15 years. Even had to quit studying my Bible for fear of going crazy.

WHY all my confusion. It was because I was not taught the Bible "rightly divided" (2 Tim. 2:15)

I was never taught that from Gen. 12 through Acts 8 was strictly for the nation of Israel. Even when I read Matt. 15:24, 25, the words of Jesus ."...I am not come but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He even COMMANDED His disciples "...Go not unto the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". I didn't realize what it meant. I, like my pastor and teachers, and may others, ignored it. I also ignored what Paul said in Rom. 15::8 "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers:" What fathers? the fathers of Israel. Another thing is ignored was 2 Cor. 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth (from now on) know we know no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (His earthly ministry), know we Him no more."

Ignoring those above 3 verses made what I formerly believed much easier. But I found out that they are in the Bible, that the earthly ministry of Jesus was not for me. I was trying to steal Israels promises and hope. For some reasons I didn't think that their curses were meant for me. Liked their promises though.

IF I AM WRONG, SHOW ME MY ERROR!

Who do you think this passage is for?


Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

This passage is for everyone. Jew, Gentile or Eskimo. It doesn't matter. All come into this world with the curse of sin and death. You can't escape it no matter what your pedigree might be. Your dividing people into Israel and Gentiles and saying that God deals with one group one way and another group another is completely against Scripture. Paul would tell you if he were standing before you. In fact, he has already told you in this verse. When you divide people then you have divided the cross. The cross is where everything happened. Don't mock the cross. That is where Christ took on all of the sins of all of mankind, Jew, Gentile and any other people group you want to throw in. He paid with His life to reconcile ALL to God Almighty. I'm not messing with that. If you want to that's on you not me.

I agree with you that the passage in Rom. 5:12. is for everyone. However, Jesus, during His earthly ministry would not, or did He ever, go to Gentiles or Eskimos. WHY? Read Matt. 15:24.

Paul is writing to members of the Church, the Body of Christ, Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law, which did not exist until the Conversion of the Apostle. Paul. If that church did exist prior to Paul's conversion, NO ONE, including you, has ever shown it to me.

I have been on forums for over 10 years, I have begged for that proof. NO ONE has ever shown it to me. I wonder WHY??? Would you PLEASE be the first one to do it for me?

My belief system has never divided people. It was God who set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel (Gen. 11), and raised up Abram to take a people unto Himself.

Did God deal with Cain and Able in the same manner as He did Adam and Eve? I don't think so.

Did God deal with Moses in the same manner as He did with with Cain and Able? I don't think so.

Did God deal with Abram in the same manner as He did with Abram? I don't think so.

Did God deal with Abraham in the same manner He dealt with Abram? I don't think so.

Did God deal with Moses in the same manner as He Abraham? I don't think so.

Did God deal with the Gentiles in the same manner He dealt with Israel prior to Acts 8? I don't think so.

Is God dealing with the Church, the Body of Christ, in the same manner He dealt with Israel under the Law? I don't think so.

It appears to me that God had dealt differently with mankind throughout the ages.

It is our duty to be good stewards for the time period (dispensation) in which we live. Israel was, and will again be, in the dispensation of the LAW, while we today are in the dispensation of GRACE.

Our hope is heavenly, while Israel has an earthly kingdom to look forward to.

 

[Danoh]

Of course, now Notreligious will once more make these distinctions as one of race on our part. It is NOT. It is one of spiritual identities/distinctions - always has been - was/ is one nigh unto God or not. And that, as prescribed BY HIM. Its as if the guy is reading some other Bible. Who cares if you own and or have read every supposedly "Dispensational" book ever written. That proves nothing. Not one thing. Well, other than the obvious: your erroneous conclusion that one first one gets a Dispensational perspectivd from books and then reads it INTO Scripture.

Fact is that our late, Brother Stam titled his book, "Things That Differ" from his conviction that as one reads commentaries and or Scripture, one is to "test the things that differ," not simply buy into them blindly as if just any notion will do and then proceed from said blind position.

Clearly, your continued projection of your notions onto how, as well as from what perspective, we are looking at these things from is what you continually fail to test, thus why you differ with them. For "Eskimo" these "Things THAT DIFFER" how you will, this Eskimo long ago ceased from confusing his own notions from the ever sound, "Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture?" IT'S Answer? "And if by grace, THEN is it NO MORE of works: OTHERWISE grace is no more grace.... Such a distinction BETWEEN those TWO is CLEARLY, not only A DISTINCTION BETWEEN THOSE TWO but is ALSO a SPIRITUAL - NOT - a racial one. Get that silly, foolish notion out of your head already!

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[Dispy]

Of course, now Notreligious will once more make these distinctions as one of race on our part. It is NOT. It is one of spiritual identities/distinctions - always has been - was/ is one nigh unto God or not. And that, as prescribed BY HIM. Its as if the guy is reading some other Bible. Who cares if you own and or have read every supposedly "Dispensational" book ever written. That proves nothing. Not one thing. Well, other than the obvious: your erroneous conclusion that one first one gets a Dispensational perspectivd from books and then reads it INTO Scripture.

Fact is that our late, Brother Stam titled his book, "Things That Differ" from his conviction that as one reads commentaries and or Scripture, one is to "test the things that differ," not simply buy into them blindly as if just any notion will do and then proceed from said blind position.

Clearly, your continued projection of your notions onto how, as well as from what perspective, we are looking at these things from is what you continually fail to test, thus why you differ with them. For "Eskimo" these "Things THAT DIFFER" how you will, this Eskimo long ago ceased from confusing his own notions from the ever sound, "Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture?" IT'S Answer? "And if by grace, THEN is it NO MORE of works: OTHERWISE grace is no more grace.... Such a distinction BETWEEN those TWO is CLEARLY, not only A DISTINCTION BETWEEN THOSE TWO but is ALSO a SPIRITUAL - NOT - a racial one. Get that silly, foolish notion out of your head already!

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

Danoh, notreligus is grasping for straws as he has no answers.

 

[notreligus]

I think it would be an interesting and eye-opening experience if you Mid-Acts folk would go debate the mainstream Messianic Christians. They will tell you that you are heretics, and that they are already under the Hebraic New Covenant. They will say that you are promoting Replacement Theology, which you claim to be avoiding. I think you should go tell these Jews that they don't know anything about Judaism but that they have to wait for the New Covenant to be fulfilled in the future because, according to your theologians, the New Covenant is not in effect but instead this is the age of the church and there is now a covenant of grace in place.

 

[Dispy]

I think it would be an interesting and eye-opening experience if you Mid-Acts folk would go debate the mainstream Messianic Christians. They will tell you that you are heretics, and that they are already under the Hebraic New Covenant. They will say that you are promoting Replacement Theology, which you claim to be avoiding. I think you should go tell these Jews that they don't know anything about Judaism but that they have to wait for the New Covenant to be fulfilled in the future because, according to your theologians, the New Covenant is not in effect but instead this is the age of the church and there is now a covenant of grace in place.

To begin with, Why don't you try to get them to accept your views.

 

[Danoh]

Actually, I tried communicating the Mid-Acts Perspective with those of Messianic persuasion elsewhere on this forum but was t
told by a moderator I was not allowed to unless I am Messianic, so I went no further with them. One of them had welcomed where I was coming from as our Apostle: Paul had clearly loved his "kinsmen according to the flesh" just as our Lord does, and I had sought to approach them from that, as that is also not only our debt, but our responsibility "to make ALL men see what is the fellowship of the mystery" Eph. 3.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7676247-7/

I did note that many of these saints in the Lord, for that is what they also are if they have believed that Christ died for their sins, Rom. 5:8, I did note that many of them are subject to the same hit or miss guessing at things as we Gentiles in the Body are. In this, my heart goes out to them also. Well, in that, and the fact that we serve the same Lord!!!

I also find that when you run accross a Messianic brother or sister who has an eye willing to at least look and an ear just as willing to at least hear, that their notions of the Apostle as some sort of an enemy of theirs, false apostle, or what have you right off begins to drop off to the wastebasket those notions came from to begin with.

Of course, many of them also have the advantage of the fact that their tradition is much closer to fact than the notions of most Gentiles. Ours far to often basically amounts to one form or another of Reformed Theology's invented notions.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16