Covenants - Dual or Separate?

[notreligus]

Dispensationalists....Do you believe that there are dual covenants or separate covenants?

 

[miamited]

Dispensationalists....Do you believe that there are dual covenants or separate covenants?

Hi notreligus,

If you are speaking of the old and new covenants of the Scriptures, yes, I believe they are separate.

The old covenant was a covenant of God's protection for Israel while on the earth. The new covenant is a covenant of eternal life through faith in Jesus.

If you read the law of the old covenant as given to Moses, nowhere is there any promise of anything after earthly death. Here is what God told the Israelites would be their reward for keeping His laws, commands and covenants:

If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully followhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1 all his commandshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-2 I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth.http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-3 All these blessings will come upon youhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-4 and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God: You will be blessedhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-5 in the city and blessed in the country.http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-6 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock--the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-7 Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed. You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-8 The LORD will grant that the enemieshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-9 who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven.http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-10 The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will blesshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-11 you in the land he is giving you. The LORD will establish you as his holy people,http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-12 as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commandshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-13 of the LORD your God and walk in his ways. Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the namehttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-14 of the LORD, and they will fear you. The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity--in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestockhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-15 and the crops of your ground--in the land he swore to your forefathers to give you.http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-16 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehousehttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-17 of his bounty,http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-18 to send rainhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-19 on your land in season and to blesshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-20 all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none.http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-21 The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully followhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-22 them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom.http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/28.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-23

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Danoh]

[FONT=&quot]Part One:

Both during as well as after the Millennium, the New Covenant will enable Israel to keep their Old Covenant in their reign over the Gentile nations as God’s “royal priesthood –on-this-Earth.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jeremiah 23:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8. But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jeremiah 31:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36. If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 2:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1. The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 60:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 61:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here is the fulfillment of ISRAEL’S Great Commission so many Christians confuse to be the Body’s commission for this age - Isaiah 66:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]19. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Who among the Gentiles, though?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]20. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mark 8:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26. The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How will their Great Commission be made possible?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 10:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Note how that continued on into the events related in the book of Acts together with the means by which they will be able to fulfill said commission – the Promise of the Spirit as promised them by their New Covenant. The following is also from Matthew 10:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]16. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18. And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]They were told, they would NOT get their gospel to all Israel first until His return.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Note again, the order – Israel first (Jerusalem, Judaea, and Samaria), and that, unto the uttermost parts of the Earth – Acts 1:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Two angels then remind them of Israel’s right division of these issues – Acts 1:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This with His return to His people, Israel:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Zechariah 14:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 2:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]35. Until I make thy foes thy footstool.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Some of Israel, heeding the significance of what is to that nation a Prophetic phrase “Until I make thy foes thy footstool” – that the Lord’s Christ is not too far from unleashing His Prophesied wrath, we read the following…[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Danoh]

[FONT=&quot]Part Two:


"and to all that are far off?" - Daniel 9:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7. O LORD, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Peter then expands upon this theme - of the Lord’s Second Advent to Israel, in Acts 3:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is why Peter, a Messianic Jew under the Law, just as the Lord Himself had instructed him to continue being in Matthew 23, would later take issue (in Acts 10) with being sent to a Gentile before Israel’s due time redemption – it was not yet time to go to the Gentiles! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sometime after that, he and his fellow Messianic Apostles would be further shocked to find out through a new Apostle – of the Gentiles! - that God had interrupted their commission to Israel first, and that said interruption would last until sometime after this new Apostle’s “fulness of the Gentiles be come in” Romans 11:25-27.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Per Acts 2 and Hebrews 2, and Galatians 2, these poor Messianic Believers for a time enabled to keep "all things in common" under the Law by the Spirit would soon have this foretaste of their “world to come” withdrawn from them, as Israel’s is to be a collective redemption and that nation had not obeyed their "gospel of the circumcision," now restricted to the edification (Hebrews thru Revelation) of those who had believe its message before God cut off the balance of that nation from same (Romans 2 and 3, 9-11).
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This interruption would be an issue these poor Messianic saints under the Law would never fully reconcile within themselves, though obedient they determined to be to same, Acts 15, thus, both James' "known to God" words in Acts 15 and Peter’s "hard to be understood" words in 2 Peter 3. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And just as Peter notes there, boy has the Body since twisted Paul’s writings to the destruction of their intended edification through the Mystery, Romans 11:25; 16:25![/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Danoh[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eph. 4:16[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[notreligus]

Are the Covenants dual or separate in this present time? (I should have been more specific.)

 

[Dispy]

Are the Covenants dual or separate in this present time? (I should have been more specific.)

God is not dealing with Israel as His special/favorite people being Israel, as a nation, rejected their King and His kingdom.

Being Israel today is in a "slumbering eyes" condition (Rom. 11:7-12:25) God has interrupted the prophetic program pertaining to the nation of Israel, created the "one new man", Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, known today as the Church, the Body of Christ.

God has a new arrangement (covenant) with mankind to day. For all that will place their FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:1-4) they will inherit an eternal heavenly home (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1 - Phil. 3:20).

God will again deal with Israel as His special/favorite people after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. Then God will fulfill His covenants to Israel.

 

[notreligus]

God is not dealing with Israel as His special/favorite people being Israel, as a nation, rejected their King and His kingdom.

Being Israel today is in a "slumbering eyes" condition (Rom. 11:7-12:25) God has interrupted the prophetic program pertaining to the nation of Israel, created the "one new man", Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, known today as the Church, the Body of Christ.

God has a new arrangement (covenant) with mankind to day. For all that will place their FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:1-4) they will inherit an eternal heavenly home (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1 - Phil. 3:20).

God will again deal with Israel as His special/favorite people after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. Then God will fulfill His covenants to Israel.

That is an answer to another question but not to my question. Thanks anyway. However....

Covenants define God's relationship to mankind. God determines the stipulations of the covenant, not us. We do not have a relationship with God without a covenant. If what you say is true, then Israel is still under the Sinaitic Covenant, which requires them to follow the commandments of the Torah, and the Gentiles have no relationship with God. A dispensation of grace is no substitute for a covenant and faith alone is no covenant. You can't believe in dual or separate covenants because you don't acknowledge any covenant for the Church/Body of Christ.

What about the Remnant? They are not blinded or asleep. They are not following the Sinaitic Covenant so they're also like the rest of Body and they too are in some sort of unbiblical limbo.

I need to add something.

There is what many believe to be a Super Covenant (as Kaiser called it), or an overall Covenant of Grace which has always existed. Those who believe this adhere to Covenant Theology.

You and I are now on the subject of the beliefs of Ultra-Dispensationalism/Hyper-Dispensationalism/Mid-Acts Dispensationalism which claim that that the Book of Hebrews does not apply to the Church. So, if that is true, then Christ is a Mediator of nothing and therefore the Church have no relationship with God through Christ. You Ultra-Dispensationalist folk have chosen to strip Him of His rightful position. If you don't have Christ as your Mediator, then you have no one standing before the Father as your attorney and you will always be found guilty.

 

[Danoh]

Israel and the remnant of Israel are no more one and the same today than they have ever been. And, no matter, how God deals with both as a result of the one (those in rebellion) the remnant remain faithful.

We have Jews within the Mid-Acts Perspective who see their people as presently in UNcircumcision, and that Paul's gospel of (belonging to) the UNcircumcision thus applies to them as well. Thus, they have obeyed just as any faithful Jew has obeyed by faith in the past whatever relationship with God He has called them to in the past, be that under Pharaoh, the Babylonians, Rome, you name it.

Dispensationalism is about identities - the Jew, the Gentile, the Body of Christ...

And, lets not forget 1Tim 2:5's "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[Dispy]

God is not dealing with Israel as His special/favorite people being Israel, as a nation, rejected their King and His kingdom.

Being Israel today is in a "slumbering eyes" condition (Rom. 11:7-12:25) God has interrupted the prophetic program pertaining to the nation of Israel, created the "one new man", Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, known today as the Church, the Body of Christ.

God has a new arrangement (covenant) with mankind to day. For all that will place their FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:1-4) they will inherit an eternal heavenly home (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1 - Phil. 3:20).

God will again deal with Israel as His special/favorite people after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. Then God will fulfill His covenants to Israel.

notreligus:
That is an answer to another question but not to my question. Thanks anyway. However....

Covenants define God's relationship to mankind. God determines the stipulations of the covenant, not us. We do not have a relationship with God without a covenant. If what you say is true, then Israel is still under the Sinaitic Covenant, which requires them to follow the commandments of the Torah, and the Gentiles have no relationship with God. A dispensation of grace is no substitute for a covenant and faith alone is no covenant. You can't believe in dual or separate covenants because you don't acknowledge any covenant for the Church/Body of Christ.

BigD:
The word "covenant" means contract/agreement/ or arrangement.
God made an unconditional covenant/contract/agreement/arrangement with Abram in Genesis 12. However, He made conditions to it later. Exodus 19:3-8 is just one example. The word "IF in vs. 5 makes it conditional.

The covenant/contract/agreement/arrangement that God has with us today is based on our placing our FAITH alone in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:1-4) for our salvation. Then we will have life eternal in heaven (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1, Phil. 3:20). And you say that we do not acknowledge any covenant for the Church/Body of Christ? You better rethink that.
--------------
notreligus:
What about the Remnant? They are not blinded or asleep. They are not following the Sinaitic Covenant so they're also like the rest of Body and they too are in some sort of unbiblical limbo.

[/b]BigD:[/b]
There has always been a Remnant of Israel that believed. God has sealed 144,000 to minister during the Tribulation.
----------------
I need to add something.

There is what many believe to be a Super Covenant (as Kaiser called it), or an overall Covenant of Grace which has always existed. Those who believe this adhere to Covenant Theology.

You and I are now on the subject of the beliefs of Ultra-Dispensationalism/Hyper-Dispensationalism/Mid-Acts Dispensationalism which claim that that the Book of Hebrews does not apply to the Church. So, if that is true, then Christ is a Mediator of nothing and therefore the Church have no relationship with God through Christ. You Ultra-Dispensationalist folk have chosen to strip Him of His rightful position. If you don't have Christ as your Mediator, then you have no one standing before the Father as your attorney and you will always be found guilty.

BigD:
God has always demonstrated His Grace by providing a means by which fallen man could be reconciled back to Him. It was by FAITH in believing/doing what God required at that point in time of human history. That is quite different from present dispensation of Grace. God even demonstrated Grace by giving Israel the Law. It is far different from the dispensation of Grace which was kept secret since the world began.

Those in the letter to the Hebrews is to Jewish believers that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the Grace of God". However, being they were born under the Law, they were still zealous of the Law, and continued to practice the deeds/works of the Law.

The author to those believers is a letter of correction and showing that those things they had been practiceing were shadows and types of what Christ accomplished on the Cross, and that the things under Grace were better then the Law.

Had the author written to Gentiles, they would not have had a clue as to what the author was saying. However, there are many thing written in the letter to the Hebrews that are also applicable to the Church, the Body of Christ, but the letter was not written to them.

 

[Danoh]

The Body of Christ is HIS Body. We are IN Him, seated IN HIM in Heaven, at the Father's right hand. We need no advocate, as HIS death, burial, and resurrection IN NEWNESS OF LIFE is ours, IN HIM.

We are His CO-heir. Those of those Jews and Gentiles lost from the calling of Paul in Acts 9 to the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, who have trusted his gospel of the UNcircumcision.

It is Israel, as His servant that had needed prior to their program's temporary interruption, and will need again, when said program is resumed: an advocate - until THEIR Fulness, when their Prophesied New Covenant is their reality (times of refreshing) and they THEN will no longer have need of an advocate, for they will all know Him, from the least to the greatest among them...

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[notreligus]

The Body of Christ is HIS Body. We are IN Him, seated IN HIM in Heaven, at the Father's right hand. We need no advocate, as HIS death, burial, and resurrection IN NEWNESS OF LIFE is ours, IN HIM.

We are His CO-heir. Those of those Jews and Gentiles lost from the calling of Paul in Acts 9 to the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, who have trusted his gospel of the UNcircumcision.

It is Israel, as His servant that had needed prior to their program's temporary interruption, and will need again, when said program is resumed: an advocate - until THEIR Fulness, when their Prophesied New Covenant is their reality (times of refreshing) and they THEN will no longer have need of an advocate, for they will all know Him, from the least to the greatest among them...

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

Mid-Acts folk are not at all Scriptural and are promoting error.

Matt 26:28for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


These Jews were part of the Body of Christ. The Jews AND Gentiles saved are in the Body of Christ, except they are no longer Jews and Gentiles. They are the Body, the Church. Mid-Acts folk make sure they keep mentioning them separately.

When Christ returns He will set up His permanent physical kingdom. "Jews and Gentiles" will not be separate. This is a manufactured belief of Mid-Acts folk and not anywhere in the Bible. Bad teaching is just bad teaching.

You mentioned yourself that there was a Remnant and there remains a remnant. Teaching like you folk do is the same stuff from where John Hagee gets his separate covenant teaching which makes the claim that Jews who observe the Torah are saved. (Jews are not saved by the Law in any dispensation so that shows further ignorance.)


Rom_9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Rom_11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.


Heb 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.
Heb 9:2 For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place.
Heb 9:3 Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place,
Heb 9:4 having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Heb 9:5 Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
Heb 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing
Heb 9:9 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,
Heb 9:10 but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
Heb 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

The Blood of Christ was presented in Heaven. It must be there and be there now to atone for sin. If not then no one is saved. If you don't have Christ as your Mediator right now, you're not saved. No one is saved by the Law. There is no alternative. There is no manufactured faith covenant without it being the New Covenant which is for the Church right now.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"--
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.
Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Christ is the fulfillment! There is no future fulfillment as this has already been done. The future is consummation, not fulfillment.

Christians need to realize that Dispensationalism, especially Mid-Acts/Ultra-Dispensationalism, is a system of Bible interpretation that was manufactured. The mystery is not a mystery. Paul told us that God envisioned the Church before the foundation of the world. God has stopped dealing with a nation and now deals with His people as individuals. The Old was made obsolete. Something that is obsoleted is not coming back.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


The Jews are not going to need another 1,000 years to study the Torah. The Mitzvoh, the 613, are not for salvation anyway. They are a national constitution for Israel! The Ten Commandments are the basis for the Sinaitic Covenant, which has been made obsolete.

 

[Danoh]

Lets try this again, the moment a Jew believes that Christ died for his sins, that Jew is saved and placed into the Body of Christ. This began with Paul's own UNcircumcision salvation in Acts 9.

That some of these Jews end in Galationism is why they end up practicing Torah. They have either been incorrectly instructed in Grace, or have fallen from an understanding of same. These are saved, but confused.

While those Jews who do not believe Christ died for their sins remain lost no matter how much Torah they practice.

Hagee is a sensationalist and the money is in the sensationalism. He is NOT Dispensational, as he does not even recognize the Mystery.

What he is is of the Acts 2 Perspective of Dispensationalism, which remains warmed over Reformed Theology - its why they mix Israel's Phrophesied Grace ("the many") with the Body's Mystery Grace ("to all").

You might study how the Lord and the Circumcision used the words "many" and "the many."

By the way, Notreligious, what is your understanding of what "the Mystery" is?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[Dispy]

The Body of Christ is HIS Body. We are IN Him, seated IN HIM in Heaven, at the Father's right hand. We need no advocate, as HIS death, burial, and resurrection IN NEWNESS OF LIFE is ours, IN HIM.

We are His CO-heir. Those of those Jews and Gentiles lost from the calling of Paul in Acts 9 to the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, who have trusted his gospel of the UNcircumcision.

It is Israel, as His servant that had needed prior to their program's temporary interruption, and will need again, when said program is resumed: an advocate - until THEIR Fulness, when their Prophesied New Covenant is their reality (times of refreshing) and they THEN will no longer have need of an advocate, for they will all know Him, from the least to the greatest among them...

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

notreligus:
Mid-Acts folk are not at all Scriptural and are promoting error.

Matt 26:28for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

BigD:
Matt. 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant) which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Jesus said in Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold the day come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah".

Keep in mind that during the earthly ministry of Jesus He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (cf. Matt. 15:24). The Gentile world was not part of that spoken covenant. In Hebrews 8, Jesus is speaking of that same covenant with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah. Israel will be under that covenant at His second coming.

I cannot find the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, in the OT or Gospels. It appears to me that denominational Bible believers read future revelations into past events. IMHO, that is what creates denominations, and confusion. God is not the author of that confusion.
-----------
notreligus:
These Jews were part of the Body of Christ. The Jews AND Gentiles saved are in the Body of Christ, except they are no longer Jews and Gentiles. They are the Body, the Church. Mid-Acts folk make sure they keep mentioning them separately.

BigD:
Those Jews that believed in Jesus during His earthly ministry, and those saved prior to God giving Israel temporary slumbering eyes, are not members of the Body of Christ. They are kingdom saints that have an earthly kingdom to look forward to (cf. Jer. 23:5). They were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom".

Members of the Church, the Body of Christ, have an eternal heavenly home to look forward to (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1, Phil. 3:20).
-------------
notreligus:
When Christ returns He will set up His permanent physical kingdom. "Jews and Gentiles" will not be separate. This is a manufactured belief of Mid-Acts folk and not anywhere in the Bible. Bad teaching is just bad teaching.

BigD:
In 1 Thess 4:13-18 we have the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, to heaven to "...ever be with the Lord" vs. 17. (again see 2 Cor. 5:1, Phil. 3:20). What part of those verses don't you understand?
-----------
notreligus:
You mentioned yourself that there was a Remnant and there remains a remnant. Teaching like you folk do is the same stuff from where John Hagee gets his separate covenant teaching which makes the claim that Jews who observe the Torah are saved. (Jews are not saved by the Law in any dispensation so that shows further ignorance.)

BigD:
PLEASE don't compare us with John Hagee. His beliefs are far from our views.

I am not to comment on what I deleted from you post because of your mis-understanding of the letter. (Don't have the time to write a book, or paint a picture for you.)
-----------
notreligus:
Christians need to realize that Dispensationalism, especially Mid-Acts/Ultra-Dispensationalism, is a system of Bible interpretation that was manufactured. The mystery is not a mystery. Paul told us that God envisioned the Church before the foundation of the world. God has stopped dealing with a nation and now deals with His people as individuals. The Old was made obsolete. Something that is obsoleted is not coming back.

BigD:
In Ephesians 2 we find 3 dispensations. In vs. 11 Paul mentions TIME PAST (how things used to be). In vss. 13-18 he speaks of BUT NOW, and in vs. 7 he speaks of "THE AGES TO COME". Further, in Col. 1:25, 26 he tells us that a dispensation of God which was given to him.

God had planned this present dispensation before creation, but He keep it a secret UNTIL He revealed it to the Apostle Paul.

In this dispensation of GRACE, the Law is of non-effect. However, after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, "the gospel of the kingdom" and the Law will again be in effect. At the return of Jesus, Jesus will return as a righteous Judge. and there will be 12 disciples siting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. (cf. Matt. 19:28).

Why would there be a need for a Judge, and Judges it there were no Laws?

notreligus:
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

BigD:
The OC was based upon the Laws of Moses for God instructions in righteousness for the nation of Israel.

In the NC, the Law will be written on their hearts, and they won't even have to be taught.
-----------
notreligus:
The Jews are not going to need another 1,000 years to study the Torah. The Mitzvoh, the 613, are not for salvation anyway. They are a national constitution for Israel! The Ten Commandments are the basis for the Sinaitic Covenant, which has been made obsolete.

BigD:
It will be written on their heats.

 

[Danoh]

But for our different view of Hebrews, Dispy, we make a good Mid-Acts Defensive team -

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[Dispy]

But for our different view of Hebrews, Dispy, we make a good Mid-Acts Defensive team -

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

I concur.

I am always open to correction.

 

[Dispy]

notreligus, In regards to the OC being replaced by the NC.

The OC in the OT is strickly to the nation of Israel. It primarily had to do with the promise God gave to Moses in Exodus 19:3-7, and the giving of the Law to Moses.

God gave the Law of Moses for instructions in righteous for the children of Israel. The Law was the guide for them to keep the Covenants. The Gentiles were never under the Law. If one was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the CIVIL, MORAL, and CEREMONIAL Laws of Moses.

Israel as a nation failed miserably in keeping the Law. During the earthly ministry of Jesus, He kept all the requirements of the Law for them. Therefore, the NC is based upon what Jesus did for them.

Yes, the OC is obsolete. It will be replaced by the NC, and is still with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah. Hebrews 8:10-13 spells it out. The Law will be written on their hearts. This will happen at the end of the Tribulation at the 2nd coming of Jesus.

Where will I be at that time? In my eternal heavenly home.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

notreligus, In regards to the OC being replaced by the NC.

The OC in the OT is strickly to the nation of Israel. It primarily had to do with the promise God gave to Moses in Exodus 19:3-7, and the giving of the Law to Moses.

God gave the Law of Moses for instructions in righteous for the children of Israel. The Law was the guide for them to keep the Covenants. The Gentiles were never under the Law. If one was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the CIVIL, MORAL, and CEREMONIAL Laws of Moses.

Israel as a nation failed miserably in keeping the Law. During the earthly ministry of Jesus, He kept all the requirements of the Law for them. Therefore, the NC is based upon what Jesus did for them.

Yes, the OC is obsolete. It will be replaced by the NC, and is still with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah. Hebrews 8:10-13 spells it out. The Law will be written on their hearts.
This will happen at the end of the Tribulation at the 2nd coming of Jesus.

Where will I be at that time? In my eternal heavenly home.

Hope to see ya there


.

 

[notreligus]

I find it essentially impossible to have a discussion with a hyper/ultra-dispensational because they respond from their seemingly endless supply of cut-and-paste responses that I've already read and answered many times before. And each one covers too much territory, much of it not even related to the topic it supposedly covers. It requires more time than I have. I can't live here. And I don't have a large cut-and-paste supply to draw from. I write what I write at the time. I give it some thought but it's not pre-prepared and taken from a lot of other folk.

These positions are theologically weak and that is because they claim that the Old Mosaic/Sinaitic Covenant and the New Covenant are ontologically the same. They are not. I would ask that one who holds to these views explain why they would be the same in this regard.

 

[Dispy]

I find it essentially impossible to have a discussion with a hyper/ultra-dispensational because they respond from their seemingly endless supply of cut-and-paste responses that I've already read and answered many times before. And each one covers too much territory, much of it not even related to the topic it supposedly covers. It requires more time than I have. I can't live here. And I don't have a large cut-and-paste supply to draw from. I write what I write at the time. I give it some thought but it's not pre-prepared and taken from a lot of other folk.

These positions are theologically weak and that is because they claim that the Old Mosaic/Sinaitic Covenant and the New Covenant are ontologically the same. They are not. I would ask that one who holds to these views explain why they would be the same in this regard.

I have just reviewed all my posts on this thread. Guess how many "cut and paste" jobs I found 0.

If one wants to understand the Bible, one must study the New Testament in light of the Old testament. God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11. From Abram, in Gen. 12, through Moses, and on into Acts 8, God was dealing ONLY with the nation of Israel and under the Law.. If one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte).

From Acts 9, the conversion of Saul/Paul, God is dealing with Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law.

Even before Jesus returned to heaven in Acts 1:3, He was still telling His disciples things "...pertaining to the Kingdom" what He taught them to pray for in Matt. 6:10. There were no Gentile present at Pentecost, only Jews and proselytes.

Therefore, How could the Church, the Body of Christ, Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. have started at Pentecost. Even Peter in Acts 10 was still following the Jewish dietary Laws. When Peter returned to Jerusalem, in Acts 11:3, James accused him of eating with with the uncircumcised (vs. 3).

PLEASE explain to me how the Church, the Body of Christ, as stated above, was founded at Pentecost. If you will do that, with scriptural support, I PROMISE I will change my views and believe every word you write.

I can't make it any easier for you.

Looking forward to your response. If you don't respond I will know why.

 

[Danoh]

Likewise on your more excellent post, Dispy, I post based on Scripture, from time in it. Fact is that when I encountered the Mid-Acts Perspective, I right off laid it aside an reread the entire Bible. It became obvious to me that I had been wrong, and that Mid-Acts is the only sound view. As for the notion against agreeing with those " of like precious faith," this very passage knocks holes in that.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16