COVENANTALLY SPEAKING/THINKING

[Jonaitis]

Both the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith claim that the ten commandments, which they call "the moral law", were given to Adam before the fall.

However, the scriptures say that Adam was given one commandment.

"Do not eat of..."

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.



Both of the above confessions also claim we are still under the 4th commandment, no matter what we find in Colossians 2:16-17, and the fact that the early Church met on the first day of the week.

Can you explain how Adam could have committed adultery before the fall?

Can you explain why Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31?

.

You're losing me here again. Was there no morality before Sinai? Did the Ten Commandments not exist in principle before Moses?

Just because Adam was not able to commit the actual act of adultery in the Garden doesn't mean anything. Adultery is violating the marriage bed, the idea of it is wrong regardless of the circumstances. If I have some deformation of the genitalia at birth, like some eunuch, does that mean adultery doesn't exist in my world? Of course it does, just because I am not physically able to perform the act doesn't make it right. But really you are missing the point, the summary of the moral law is love and this was understood by Adam in the Garden. Jesus said that upon these two commandments of love depend on the whole law and prophets: love to God with all of our being and love to our neighbor. Adam broke this moral law, understood in the law of love, by disobeying God and sinning against his wife. Even though he didn't commit every precept of the Ten Commandments, the general concept of what the law teaches he broke. If you break one, you break them all.

Galatians 4:24-31 is about two covenants, with two kinds of people: Christians (Sarah) and Jews (Hagar). We are children of the free woman, the heavenly Jerusalem, while the unbelieving Jews are the children of the slave woman, the present Jerusalem (at that time). This allegory is showing that the unbelieving Jews are still under the slavery and condemnation of the Law, while Christians are freed from the justice of the Law. To cast out the slave woman is referring to removing the unbelievers from inheriting the promises with the believers, as Ishmael was casted out from inheriting with Isaac of his promises.

 

[BABerean2]

You're losing me here again. Was there no morality before Sinai? Did the Ten Commandments not exist in principle before Moses?

I am not losing you.

You are attempting to ignore what the Bible says to make Reformed Covenant Theology work.

.

 

[Jonaitis]

I am not losing you.

You are attempting to ignore what the Bible says to make Reformed Covenant Theology work.

.

So...Cain didn't really murder Abel, because murder wasn't outlined until Moses came along?

 

[Jonaitis]

"For when Gentiles, who do not have the [written] law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the [written] law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse and excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." - Romans 2:14-16

 

[ExTiff]

Perhaps if I answer my own question, some might be inclined to support or refute it . . .

A. Covenant of Works

B. Covenant Of Grace

C. Noahic Covenant

D. Abrahamic Covenant

E. Davidic Covenant

F. New Covenant

For persons within the following categories, please identify your understanding regarding which specific covenant(s) the people within that group are participants in (or beneficiaries of).

Assume all of these people groups are living in the 21st century.

1. True believers in Christ
B, C, D, E, F

2. Those who put no trust in Jesus Christ as savior
- Having heard the gospel, but rejected it
A, C
- Never having heard the gospel
A, C

3. The baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)
B, C, D, E, F


4. The un-baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)
A, C,

And begin . . .

Really? Nobody?

I think I would concur with most of your conjectures except 1.

True believers are still under the covenant of works, (everyone born of Adam is), but they are no longer under condemnation for being covenant breakers, which we all inevitably become in reality unless we die very young indeed. I think all infants also would be covered by certain aspects of the Covenant of Grace because Christ died once for all, and until they are capable of being held responsible for personal sin, they would be covered by the 'all' part of the covenant of grace, regardless of their unconscious condition. The children of believers are fully covered by the covenant of grace and furthermore are 'Holy' i.e. set apart for God's purposes, but as yet uncooperative with God's spirit until they become voluntarily regenerate, as is required of them if they are to be of service to God and 'entrusted' with the message of reconciliation.

.

 

[ExTiff]

Both the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith claim that the ten commandments, which they call "the moral law", were given to Adam before the fall.

However, the scriptures say that Adam was given one commandment.

"Do not eat of..."

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.



Both of the above confessions also claim we are still under the 4th commandment, no matter what we find in Colossians 2:16-17, and the fact that the early Church met on the first day of the week.

Can you explain how Adam could have committed adultery before the fall?

Can you explain why Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31?

.

The first command to mankind was "Go forth and multiply". No other was issued before this.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” That comes before Gen 2:16.

It has probably been the only command of God we don't seem to have had much trouble obeying. In fact we are probably too enthusiastically obedient for our own and everything else's good.
.
.

 

[BABerean2]

So...Cain didn't really murder Abel, because murder wasn't outlined until Moses came along?

Now you are deflecting the conversation to make your doctrine work.

You are attempting to ignore the fact that God gave only one commandment to Adam before the fall, by discussing the murder of Abel that happened after the fall.
The whole universe was corrupted by Adam's sin.
What does the text below say?

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


So far, you have ignored the 4th commandment, because there is no way for you to keep it in the New Covenant Church.
Why would we ignore what Paul said in Colossians 2:16-17?
Why did none of the New Testament writers command Christians to keep a Sabbath day?
The early Church met on the first day of the week, but never called in a Sabbath day.

In Galatians 4 did Paul use Hagar as a symbol of the Sinai Covenant?
What did Paul tell the Galatians to do with the bondwoman?

Did Paul ever divide the 10 commandments from the other 603 commandments of the Law of Moses?

If we are going to let the New Covenant live, we must let the Old Covenant die.

.Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Is the mountain in the verse above Mount Sinai?

.

 

[Jonaitis]

Now you are deflecting the conversation to make your doctrine work.

So you are saying if Adam killed Eve before they fell, he would not be guilty of murder? Would he have sinned? Sin is the breaking of God's law...so...?

 

[BABerean2]

So you are saying if Adam killed Eve before they fell, he would not be guilty of murder? Would he have sinned? Sin is the breaking of God's law...so...?

Would Adam have broken the 4th commandment, if he had picked up a stick on the Sabbath day before the fall?

How could Adam honor his mother, since he had none?

......................................

Former Reformed Covenant Theologian David H. J. Gay, on what the Apostle Paul said about "the law of Moses".

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

........................


Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

.

 

[ExTiff]

Would Adam have broken the 4th commandment, if he had picked up a stick on the Sabbath day before the fall?

How could Adam honor his mother, since he had none?

......................................

Former Reformed Covenant Theologian David H. J. Gay, on what the Apostle Paul said about "the law of Moses".

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

........................


Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

.

Having watched and listened to this excellent piece of exegesis, I fail to understand how it in any way either attacks or fails to confirm 'covenant theology'. Unless that is, you have a different definition of the term 'covenant theology'.

Do you?

I'd be interested to know in what way you think this preacher has departed from 'covenant theology'. After all, 'covenant theology' was what the Apostle Paul was most adept at, as his epistles emphatically affirm.
.

 

[BABerean2]

I'd be interested to know in what way you think this preacher has departed from 'covenant theology'.

Here it is in his own words.

.

 

[ExTiff]

Here it is in his own words.

.

New Covenant Theology, IS Covenant Theology. The man has confused Evanglicalism with 'Covenant Theology'. Covenant Theology is Theology based upon the Covenants of God. All of them, leading up to the Final and "Better Covenant" refered to in Hebrews and many other New Testament Epistles.

He mistakenly equates regeneration with justification and conversion. He became a Regenerate Baptist and probably still is. We all must become regenerate to continue in any kind of covenant, with good standing with God. Covenant Theology is not Calvinist, Baptist, Unitarian, Roman Catholic or denominationalist. It is just Apostolic Exegisis of the Covenants God has made with mankind. Essentially it is the understanding of The New Covenant as exigited by Paul and the other Apostles.

He is confused by his wrong assumption that Law Keeping in order to obtain or preserve Salvation is a part of Covenant Theology. It is not. He seems to think that The 'Law of Moses', which came 430 years after Abraham has been abolished, but it has been fulfilled in Christ, and not a jot of it will pass until all has been fulfilled. It is simply that we are no longer condemned for breaking 'the law'. WE grieve the Spirit if we shame Christ by our behaviour, we prove ourselves to be unworthy of Him, but we are not condemned for it, we are disciplined, as Children of God. Were that not so we would not BE God's children.

Are you imagining that 'Covenant Theology' is a system of theology which is espoused to The Law of Moses as a means of salvation? If so you are profoundly misinformed.

Covenant Theology IS 'New Covenant Theology'. The New Covenant is the Only Covenant which is of parmount importance to us regarding our ultimate salvation. All others merely prepared the way for it.

Our Covenant Theology is either according to Apostolic understanding or we disagree with Paul and the rest of the Apostles who have contributed to the New Testament and built the Gospel upon the foundation of Christ.
.

 

[BABerean2]

New Covenant Theology, IS Covenant Theology.

Not based on the "ministry of death" engraved on stones in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Not based on the fact that we are not come to "the mountain that burns with fire", in Hebrews 12:18-24.

Not based on Paul compelling the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage", in Galatians 4:24-31.


What is New Covenant Theology?
Pastor Douglas Goodin

.

 

[ExTiff]

Not based on the "ministry of death" engraved on stones in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Not based on the fact that we are not come to "the mountain that burns with fire", in Hebrews 12:18-24.

Not based on Paul compelling the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage", in Galatians 4:24-31.


What is New Covenant Theology?
Pastor Douglas Goodin

.

Covenant theology is not 'based' on any of those things. Covenant theology deals with the covenants and the teachings of the Apostles concerning them.

The Covenant is the glue which holds the scriptures together. Without understanding it and its predecessors there can be no understanding of the legal basis for believing the gospel.

Any 'theology' which is not Covenant theology is of no practical use whatever to us sinners.
.

 

[BABerean2]

Covenant theology is not 'based' on any of those things. Covenant theology deals with the covenants and the teachings of the Apostles concerning them.

The Covenant is the glue which holds the scriptures together. Without understanding it and its predecessors there can be no understanding of the legal basis for believing the gospel.

Any 'theology' which is not Covenant theology is of no practical use whatever to us sinners.
.

Both the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith claim the ten commandments were given to Adam before the fall.

However, in Galatians 3:16-29 the Apostle Paul reveals the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant.

Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.
Paul's words show Reformed Covenant Theology to be in error.

The New Covenant was first predicted in Genesis 3:15, and later in Genesis 12:3, and finally promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

The battle between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant began in Acts chapter 15, and continues to the present. During most of the history of the Church the Judaisers have won the day.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:



Based on the verse below the ten commandments are the Sinai Covenant.

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


Based on Deuteronomy 5:1-3, the Sinai Covenant was not given at an ealier time.


The term “the moral law” is not found in scripture.


Are there are two different sets of commandments in the verse below?

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.



The New Covenant is a higher standard than the Old Covenant, not for our salvation, but for our conduct.


Christ contrasts the two covenants below with the words “But I say…”

Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
Mat 5:26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Mat 5:31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
Mat 5:32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.


Mat 5:33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
Mat 5:34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Mat 5:40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
Mat 5:41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
Mat 5:42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.


Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
Mat 5:45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
Mat 5:47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
Mat 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Confirmation of the contrast between the Old Covenant and New Covenant is found below.

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
(Why did Paul compare the ten commandments to a ministry of death?)


Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written: "REJOICE, O BARREN, YOU WHO DO NOT BEAR! BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR! FOR THE DESOLATE HAS MANY MORE CHILDREN THAN SHE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
(Why did Paul compel the Galatian believers to “cast out” the Sinai Covenant of “bondage”?)



Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.



Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, in as much as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. (Was this written in the present tense during the first century?)
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.




Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, (Is that mountain Mount Sinai?)
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW.
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, (Is this verse speaking of the “church” of Jesus Christ?)
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Why does the text above say that we are not come to Mount Sinai, but to Mount Zion?)


Watch the YouTube videos “The New Covenant” by Bob George, and “New Covenant Theology Made Simple” by David H. J. Gay.


The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[Jonaitis]

Neither the Westminster Confession or the Second London Baptist Confession teach that the Ten Commandments were given before the fall. Rather, the moral precepts taught in the Decalogue was in the heart of Adam to Moses before the Ten Commandments were written. Morality is eternal, it is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The Ten Commandments only touch on specific acts, but in equity touches on everything moral and right and good - this was in the heart of Adam before and after he fell.

 

[BABerean2]

Neither the Westminster Confession or the Second London Baptist Confession teach that the Ten Commandments were given before the fall. Rather, the moral precepts taught in the Decalogue was in the heart of Adam to Moses before the Ten Commandments were written. Morality is eternal, it is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The Ten Commandments only touch on specific acts, but in equity touches on everything moral and right and good - this was in the heart of Adam before and after he fell.

"Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God


I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament."

.

 

[Jonaitis]

"Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God


I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament."

.

This just affirmed everything I said...

 

[ExTiff]

"Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God


I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament."

.

It seems that the problem here is your and others misinterpretation of the meaning of the Westminster Confession.

The ten commandments and the moral law did not 'come into existence' at Sinai and become the means of salvation for the people of God. The human race did not invent them, it discovered their eternal pre-existence and applicability to all who would 'do God's will' in heaven and on earth. Before the Law of Moses, men were not ignorant of the fact that murder was 'against the law', that adultery was 'against the law', that covetousness was 'against the law', that disrespect for parents or other peoples property was 'against the law', even that forcing others to work 7 days a week without a day of rest was 'against the law'. They simply had no concrete written evidence that God was, and always has been, opposed to all these infringements of His will for mankind. Scripture itself testifies to the fact that all these lapses in morality are already regarded as deplorable long before Moses and the written Law. The Ten Commandments and the moral law were merely the formal declaration by God, to the people God had chosen to spearhead His intention to 'save the world rather than to judge it'. The moral law therefore has not been abolished by The New Covenant, it has been fulfilled in Christ, in that, through the provision of The Holy Spirit, man is perfectly capable of keeping the whole of it in the same manner as did Christ Himself. Thus the manner in which we regard it must be exactly the same as the manner in which Jesus Christ, the aurthor and perfector of our faith, also regarded it. This would also include the fourth commandment, which we now know to be essential to man's health and well being, only in principle, not in literal rigid callendar fixing. Matt.12:8, Matt.12:11-12, Mk.2:27, John 9:16.

This new fangled fashion for terming a 'theology' (New Covenant Theology), is merely a promotioal vehicle for denominationally partizan 'Baptist Theology' in disguise.

Covenant theology must be Apostolic theology, or it is not truly Covenant theology. The only theology concerning covenants, either old or new, has to necessarily be Apostolic in its reasoning and Denominational Baptist theology is not.
.
.

 

[BABerean2]

It seems that the problem here is your and others misinterpretation of the meaning of the Westminster Confession.

The ten commandments and the moral law did not 'come into existence' at Sinai and become the means of salvation for the people of God. The human race did not invent them, it discovered their eternal pre-existence and applicability to all who would 'do God's will' in heaven and on earth. Before the Law of Moses, men were not ignorant of the fact that murder was 'against the law', that adultery was 'against the law', that covetousness was 'against the law', that disrespect for parents or other peoples property was 'against the law', even that forcing others to work 7 days a week without a day of rest was 'against the law'. They simply had no concrete written evidence that God was, and always has been, opposed to all these infringements of His will for mankind. Scripture itself testifies to the fact that all these lapses in morality are already regarded as deplorable long before Moses and the written Law. The Ten Commandments and the moral law were merely the formal declaration by God, to the people God had chosen to spearhead His intention to 'save the world rather than to judge it'. The moral law therefore has not been abolished by The New Covenant, it has been fulfilled in Christ, in that, through the provision of The Holy Spirit, man is perfectly capable of keeping the whole of it in the same manner as did Christ Himself. Thus the manner in which we regard it must be exactly the same as the manner in which Jesus Christ, the aurthor and perfector of our faith, also regarded it. This would also include the fourth commandment, which we now know to be essential to man's health and well being, only in principle, not in literal rigid callendar fixing. Matt.12:8, Matt.12:11-12, Mk.2:27, John 9:16.

This new fangled fashion for terming a 'theology' (New Covenant Theology), is merely a promotioal vehicle for denominationally partizan 'Baptist Theology' in disguise.

Covenant theology must be Apostolic theology, or it is not truly Covenant theology. The only theology concerning covenants, either old or new, has to necessarily be Apostolic in its reasoning and Denominational Baptist theology is not.
.
.

The contrast between the two covenants is found below.

Therefore, they cannot be one and the same covenant.


2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
(Why does Paul contrast "the ministry of death", with the New Covenant, if they are one and the same?)


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(Why does the author of Hebrews say there is a first and a second covenant, if they are one and the same?)



Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
(Is this Mount Sinai?)

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(Why are we told above that we are not come to Mount Sinai, but to Mount Sion instead, if they are one and the same covenant?)


We know what men have said in their man-made confessions, but what does the Bible say?

Can you show the term "new covenant" in the Westminster Confession of Faith, or the 1689 LBCF?
It is found below in the Bible.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.