Covenant with Adam???

[DrWarfield]

Was there a Covenant between God and Adam, whatever we may chose to call that Covenant, eg. Cov. of Works, Cov. of Grace, Cov. of Creation, etc?

Regards,
DrWarfield

 

[winsome]

Was there a Covenant between God and Adam, whatever we may chose to call that Covenant, eg. Cov. of Works, Cov. of Grace, Cov. of Creation, etc?

Regards,
DrWarfield

I'd like to know about this too. See my post in the What is Covenant Theology thread.

 

[msortwell]

I'd like to know about this too. See my post in the What is Covenant Theology thread.

Yes,

The Covenant of Works was made between God and man (Adam, the Adamic covenant). The terms are simple, obey a simple command, or die.

Gen 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[winsome]

Yes,

The Covenant of Works was made between God and man (Adam, the Adamic covenant). The terms are simple, obey a simple command, or die.

Gen 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Blessings,

Mike

Hi,
Are you saying a covenant is that simple:

1. Obey my command
2. Or suffer the penalty

Like a guy comes up to me in the street and says give me your money (simple command) or I'll knife you (the penalty). Is that a covenant?

 

[msortwell]

Hi,
Are you saying a covenant is that simple:

1. Obey my command
2. Or suffer the penalty

Like a guy comes up to me in the street and says give me your money (simple command) or I'll knife you (the penalty). Is that a covenant?

Yes . . . sort of.

A covenant is simply a formal contract.

The essential elements of a covenant are:

1. Two parties (at least) are named.
2. One or more conditions are laid down
3. A promise is made related to conformance to the stipulations of the covenant.
4. A penalty is identified for non-conformance to the stipulations of the covenant.

One difference between the modern view of a contract and the biblical view of a covenant is that we generally understand a contract to be a formal agreement between two parties. At times a covenant can have that form, but is not necessary.

While a covenant will also be between two parties, it need not include the agreement of both parties. A party in authority may establish a covenant with a subordinate without the agreement of the subordinate party. God did not seek or obtain Adam's agreement. Being sovereign, God has authority to establish a covenant with man, without asking man to agree to the conditions.

Your example of the mugger is significantly different in that the mugger has no legitimate authority, only power. While he may convince the one accosted to cooperate, the arrangement should not be construed to be a covenant.

Is that too confusing?

Mike

 

[winsome]

Yes . . . sort of.

A covenant is simply a formal contract.

The essential elements of a covenant are:

1. Two parties (at least) are named.
2. One or more conditions are laid down
3. A promise is made related to conformance to the stipulations of the covenant.
4. A penalty is identified for non-conformance to the stipulations of the covenant.

One difference between the modern view of a contract and the biblical view of a covenant is that we generally understand a contract to be a formal agreement between two parties. At times a covenant can have that form, but is not necessary.

While a covenant will also be between two parties, it need not include the agreement of both parties. A party in authority may establish a covenant with a subordinate without the agreement of the subordinate party. God did not seek or obtain Adam's agreement. Being sovereign, God has authority to establish a covenant with man, without asking man to agree to the conditions.

Your example of the mugger is significantly different in that the mugger has no legitimate authority, only power. While he may convince the one accosted to cooperate, the arrangement should not be construed to be a covenant.

Is that too confusing?

Mike

I can see the point about legitimate authority.

Does that mean that the state in laying down laws with penalties is laying down a covenant with its citizens?


I think us beginners on this need some basic definitions of terms and examples on this - see my post A Suggestion

 

[msortwell]

I can see the point about legitimate authority.

Does that mean that the state in laying down laws with penalties is laying down a covenant with its citizens?


I think us beginners on this need some basic definitions of terms and examples on this - see my post A Suggestion

In a democratic republic such as ours we are (in my opinion), in essence, covenanting with one another to abide by the laws that we, via our representative government, establish.

Mike

 

[TasManOfGod]

The covenant that God made with Adam is the one that Man has with God when they have no other covenant relationship

 

[DrWarfield]

A Biblical Covenant is more an agreement between two parties. If we reduce a Biblical Covenant to merely an agreement between two or more parties then everything and anything becomes a Covenant. That then begins to sound like Covenant Overload in Reformed Theology.

Regards,
DrWarfield

 

[msortwell]

A Biblical Covenant is more an agreement between two parties. If we reduce a Biblical Covenant to merely an agreement between two or more parties then everything and anything becomes a Covenant. That then begins to sound like Covenant Overload in Reformed Theology.

Regards,
DrWarfield

For clarity then Dr . . . Would you consider Abraham and his seed to be a single party?

Gen 17:7
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant , to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. KJV

If yes, then what determines a single party?

Blessings,

Mike

 

[Jerrysch]

Hi,
Are you saying a covenant is that simple:

1. Obey my command
2. Or suffer the penalty

Like a guy comes up to me in the street and says give me your money (simple command) or I'll knife you (the penalty). Is that a covenant?

Jumping in here..... No, it is not a covenant, and doublly no it is not a Biblical covenant, Biblical covenants are described as Covenants by the Bible. That which was reveiled to Adam was in fact a singular instruction, do this and die. Many in CT seek to make this instruction into a universal "covenant" between God and man, they term it the "covennt of works". Yet there are many features which are absent which we find in the arrangements which the Bible refers to as "Covenants". First off there is a promice related to a covenant. This so called "Adamic Covenant" does not have a promice. Many of the CT persuasion will suggest that "life" is implyed in this warning, some will go so far as to suggest that eternal life was the result of obeying. This line of reasoning is the result of reading something into the instruction which was not there. If eternal life was the result of not eating this fruit (which none of us has done in this generation) why do we still die? This was a singular instruction given to Adam and then related to Eve, that if they ate of the frobidden fruit they would die. They are, they died. No promice, but only a warning. To make this warning into the "Covenant of works" is a gross missrepresentation of this instruction which God gave to those in the garden. To expand it to the point of suggesting that eternal life could at some point in history be gained by works is to import meaning into the Scriptures wich is not there, and which, in fact, flies in the face of Scripture, in that no one was ever found righteous as a result of his works.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Basically God laid out to Adam the terms and conditions of His relationship with mankind. To me this is a covenant -call it another name if you want but still it becomes one of the seven times God has made an "arrangement " with man

 

[eph3Nine]

God uses the word "dispensation" to describe these "arrangements"...or "house rules". Interesting , ehh?

 

[TasManOfGod]

God uses the word "dispensation" to describe these "arrangements"...or "house rules". Interesting , ehh?

You may have something there
Personally I like the word "marriage" when two people live together.
Incidentally when did God use the term "dispensation" I thought He used "covenant"

 

[eph3Nine]

You may have something there
Personally I like the word "marriage" when two people live together.
Incidentally when did God use the term "dispensation" I thought He used "covenant"

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The word covenant was used mostly with the nation Israel. The covenant was a marriage agreement between God and the nation Israel. She is His wife. We are the Body.

 

[TasManOfGod]

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The word covenant was used mostly with the nation Israel. The covenant was a marriage agreement between God and the nation Israel. She is His wife. We are the Body.

So you are saying that Jesus didn't seal a covenant with His blood?

 

[Jerrysch]

Basically God laid out to Adam the terms and conditions of His relationship with mankind. To me this is a covenant -call it another name if you want but still it becomes one of the seven times God has made an "arrangement " with man

Where this becomes a rub with me is when this instruction is distorted into some sort of universal promice of eternal life to mankind at large when actually it was a singular instruction to Adam who related it to Eve. To expand this instruction to the status of a covenant and to state that it has relavance for all time is quite an addition to the Scriptural record.

 

[Jerrysch]

Yes . . . sort of.

A covenant is simply a formal contract.

The essential elements of a covenant are:

1. Two parties (at least) are named.
2. One or more conditions are laid down
3. A promise is made related to conformance to the stipulations of the covenant.
4. A penalty is identified for non-conformance to the stipulations of the covenant.

One difference between the modern view of a contract and the biblical view of a covenant is that we generally understand a contract to be a formal agreement between two parties. At times a covenant can have that form, but is not necessary.

While a covenant will also be between two parties, it need not include the agreement of both parties. A party in authority may establish a covenant with a subordinate without the agreement of the subordinate party. God did not seek or obtain Adam's agreement. Being sovereign, God has authority to establish a covenant with man, without asking man to agree to the conditions.

Your example of the mugger is significantly different in that the mugger has no legitimate authority, only power. While he may convince the one accosted to cooperate, the arrangement should not be construed to be a covenant.

Is that too confusing?

Mike

What promice did God make in regards to conformance to this "covenant" were does the Scriptures spell out this promice?

 

[eph3Nine]

So you are saying that Jesus didn't seal a covenant with His blood?

How do you come to this conclusion from my posting where the word dispensation is in scripture?

The CROSS is where the blood of Christ was shed for ALL sins for all people for ALL time. Paul is the only one who had the purpose for the Cross as HIS gospel, as it contains the death burial and resurrection AS the truth that is to be believed for reconciliation with God.

"without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sins"....Jesus shed His blood ONCE for ALL. He isnt gonna come back to shed more blood. He did it RIGHT the first time!

 

[Jerrysch]

Yes . . . sort of.

A covenant is simply a formal contract.

The essential elements of a covenant are:

1. Two parties (at least) are named.
2. One or more conditions are laid down
3. A promise is made related to conformance to the stipulations of the covenant.
4. A penalty is identified for non-conformance to the stipulations of the covenant.

One difference between the modern view of a contract and the biblical view of a covenant is that we generally understand a contract to be a formal agreement between two parties. At times a covenant can have that form, but is not necessary.

While a covenant will also be between two parties, it need not include the agreement of both parties. A party in authority may establish a covenant with a subordinate without the agreement of the subordinate party. God did not seek or obtain Adam's agreement. Being sovereign, God has authority to establish a covenant with man, without asking man to agree to the conditions.

Your example of the mugger is significantly different in that the mugger has no legitimate authority, only power. While he may convince the one accosted to cooperate, the arrangement should not be construed to be a covenant.

Is that too confusing?

Mike

This is not always true, a unconditional covenant such as the Abrahamic and the Noahic do not have penalty clauses.