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ralliann

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Hi father Matt,
I am curious about covenant theology and if you have any views on it. I ask because the Catholic church seems to have picked up on that the last few years. Theologians such as Scott Hahn and several others (Catholics) have done works in this branch of theology. I am curious if you are familiar with these scholars, and what you might think of it.
Thank you and God bless.
 

Josheb

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If I may, I encourage you to study the word "covenant" in the Bible and how scripture asserts and uses the term because any discussion of Covenant Theology (CT) will be predicated, and best be measured by what scripture states. CT is largely associated with the Reformation and Reformed theology, but the truth is CT existed for centuries before the Reformation. Catholics, those of the Reformed persuasion, and their competitors (like Dispensationalists) are going to have much different answers and you won't know what to think about any of them if what scriptures states is unknown. CT has evolved over the centuries, and it is not monolithic. There are a core set of precepts that provide orthodoxy, or what might be called "CT orthodoxy". Lastly, it's always best to consider the in-house case for any given position rather than taking only the appraisals of outsiders as true. I would, therefore, recommend you give one of the books listed HERE a read or peruse some of the articles HERE. Once you know what scripture says then any exegetical mistakes the CTers make will be recognized, and once CT is correctly understood from the pov of the CTers then any straw men asserted by critics can be recognized.

Personally, I also recommend "Kingdom Through Covenant" by Stephen Wellum and "Far as the Curse is Found," by Peter Gentry and Michael D. WIlliams. Gentry and Wellum write about what is known as "Progressive Covenantalism," or the premise God's covenant is revealed incrementally, or progressively throughout scripture. Williams does an excellent job of surveying scripture to describe God's purpose in creation in a singular and cohesive manner. All three of these authors fall within the umbrella of Covenant Theology but hold views slightly different than the classic CT pov. After becoming familiar with CT and the RC and EO views you might want to explore the matter of continuity versus discontinuity because that subject is currently being richly debated among Christians do the effects of Dispensationalism and their view scripture is discontinuous (the rest of Christendom has long held the opposite view).
 
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ArmyMatt

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am I the Fr Matt you’re asking about? I ask since there’s two of us here.
 
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ArmyMatt

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just so you know, this subforum is to ask the Orthodox questions about Orthodoxy. you can have a discussion with book recommendations in our debate subforum.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Ok, thanks. I am hoping these things might lead to less division in the Church is all. Especially the protestant Church.
Godwilling
 
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Josheb

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just so you know, this subforum is to ask the Orthodox questions about Orthodoxy. you can have a discussion with book recommendations in our debate subforum.
Noted. I didn't/don't intend a discussion or debate. Only to inform the Orthodox discussion of Covenant Theology for @rallian's benefit. If you hadn't responded to my op-reply I wouldn't have posted further. Everything I posted is correct and you and rallian can do with it what you like, even if that means ignoring it in its entirety but I hope and trust, whatever else you tell rallian, you will affirm what was posted.

  • Scripture is the measure.
  • CTers best articulate their own position.
  • Alternative view holders best articulate their own alternatives.
  • Critics critique correctly.
  • Here are some recommended in-house sources.

Those are the basics we can and should all agree upon. I am not inherently opposed to the EO pov and nothing I posted should be construed to imply dissent or interference with the op or the purpose of this subforum. I look forward to Fr. Matt's answer to the question asked (whether the Matt proves to be you or the other Matt ).
Hi father Matt,

I am curious about covenant theology and if you have any views on it...... I am curious if you are familiar with these scholars, and what you might think of it.
Pretty straightforward and fairly easy to answer.

  • What are your views on CT (if you have any)?
  • Are you familiar with CT scholars (like Hahn)?
  • What do you think of CT?

The questions assume some familiarity with the theology in question, but regardless of Fr. Matt's familiarity with that theology, I look forward to reading the answers to the questions asked. I can lurk, yes?
 
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ArmyMatt

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by all means lurk and ask us, and by all means present your stuff in our debate forum.
 
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ralliann

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Hi Josheb, I appreciate your desire to help. I am more interested in this forum the Orthodox, response to the Catholic Church. These Churches hold many things in common, where protestants don't.
If they can agree on the operation of the covenants, maybe that could be a place for dialogue with protestants having a similar foundation. We protestants would benefit from them in my opinion.
 
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Josheb

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Thanks. I appreciate the clarification, but Covenant Theology preceded the Reformation...... and Prots are beholding to Roman Catholicism more than many people on all sides of the various theological divides typically acknowledge. Our celebrating Christmas, or Easter, or anything else in the liturgical calendar is a holdover from RCCism. Pedobaptism is another example where denominational Prots and the EO share an inheritance with the RCC. We all acknowledge the existence of covenants and the covenant relationship in scripture. That is rock-solid core common ground . And it should be.

And any EO cleric will tell you the same because these are simply the facts of history. What RCCism has done with CT since the ECFs, what the EO has done with CT, and what the Reformed Prots and Dispensationalist Prots have done with CT may vary. Father Matt will, presumably, have an EO-informed perspective. While it may vary doctrinally, it won't, or shouldn't, vary from the facts of history. I'm curious because some within EO would say EO fits historical CT better than modern Protestantism ! That would definitely be true when compared to Dispensational Protestantism. The same holds true with Liberal Theology.
We protestants would benefit from them in my opinion.
Yep. I completely agree. That's why I dropped in .

I'll lurk. I could post from the EO perspective because I read EO theology and enjoy it, but the op was addressed to Fr. Matt and I respect that.


So, Fr. Matt,

  • What are your views on CT (if you have any)?
  • Are you familiar with CT scholars (like Hahn)?
  • What do you think of CT?

Looking forward to reading the answers .


.
 
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ralliann

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Thanks. I appreciate the clarification, but Covenant Theology preceded the Reformation......
I am aware. It is where the reformers got it from.....
From what I have read, not much....

I don't know that fr. matt wants to go beyond what he said. And that is good enough for me. I respect Catholicism east and west. I am glad we have such men available here.
 
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ArmyMatt

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What are your views on CT (if you have any)?
it’s not really a part of the Orthodox tradition, so I dunno only apart from what I said. aside from covenants established through history, that find their fulfillment in Christ.
Are you familiar with CT scholars (like Hahn)?
not really, no.
What do you think of CT?
it depends on what you mean by it. I am pretty sure it’s varied within the West, so that would depend on who I am talking to.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I do not mean anything by it. That is the question asked in the opening post. @ralliann is the one who should be asked to clarify the question.
I didn’t mean you specifically, just in general when addressing this question. more a collective “you.”
 
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ralliann

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I didn’t mean you specifically, just in general when addressing this question. more a collective “you.”
Fr. Matt.
From my point of view, you have given me your answer. I liked it...From what I have read, Roman Catholics are the one's getting into this theology, not so much the Orthodox. I like what you said, as that I see it as positive toward Catholics (covenant theology) so far. From what I read from Hahn, the orthodox have said they found no heresy in them so far. So, The orthodox I think will respond if anything develops further in their interest in this. So truly, thanks for your response. But it not being heresy, means ( i think) indivual Orthodox ARE ABLE TO PERHAPS, have an interest. I was just curious about yours. And you gave it.
 
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ArmyMatt

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cool beans
 
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