Covenant Children

[Judson]

A question for my Presbyterian brothers: If the children of believers are viewed as in the covenant, is this the case with all Christians, including credobaptists? Or, do you believe that infant baptism is that rite that places an infant into the covenant?

Thanks

 

[Eddie L]

A question for my Presbyterian brothers: If the children of believers are viewed as in the covenant, is this the case with all Christians, including credobaptists? Or, do you believe that infant baptism is that rite that places an infant into the covenant?

Thanks

Odd question. I've never seen it before. Do you really think that Presbyterians believe that infant baptism is a work of the hands that is necessary for the inclusion of people into the Covenant family?

 

[Judson]

i know presbys would say that baptism is the induction rite into the visible church (israel), which ppl consider the external administration of the covenant of grace. my issue is that this would make baptism have an efficacy that is foreign to protestant thought. but perhaps my logic is off

 

[hedrick]

I would say that baptism is the sign and seal of covenant membership. I wouldn't say that children of Baptists are excluded from the covenant. That would imply a role for sacraments that is non-Reformed.

 

[Judson]

so it's possible, then, to be members yet not receive the sign and seal?

 

[Eddie L]

so it's possible, then, to be members yet not receive the sign and seal?

as possible as it is for those who baptise believers only.

 

[Bens]

We should must behave with Covenant Children, Its make good generic lipitor effect on that covenant Children, and also its a great habit.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

I have attended baptist churches where they have infant dedications. My thought every time I see it is If they are dedicating the child to God and themselves to raising that child in a covenant home, why then are they refusing to give that child baptism, since that is the means by which the child is identified with Christ and placed into the covenant community and is the sign and seal of the covenant? Oh well. What do I know?

 

[AndrewZinc]

This issue came to a head in my congregation when a member, living with but not married to, a man wanted to have her twin boys baptised. Our new minister viewed baptism as a sign of belonging (nothing supernatural happens during the ceremony) and of more importance to the parents who take vows. He offered a dedication instead, to wait until they married or for the grandparents to take the vows.

There was a heated discussion at the Kirk Session (eldership) as she rejected these alternatives. There was a view that he was rejecting these baby boys and it didn't matter what the parents situation was. The boys were losing out.

It was clear that there was a difference of opinon on what baptism is, but 1 Corinthians 7:14 says:

For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

They are holy, set apart in God's sight, and this would apply to all children of believers regardless of a baptism ceremony. That is my understanding but I'm open to hear other points of view.

 

[hedrick]

This issue came to a head in my congregation when a member, living with but not married to, a man wanted to have her twin boys baptised. Our new minister viewed baptism as a sign of belonging (nothing supernatural happens during the ceremony) and of more importance to the parents who take vows. He offered a dedication instead, to wait until they married or for the grandparents to take the vows.

I don't understand. This is a church member who presumably will bring up the children within the Church. Why wouldn't you baptize them? Saying nothing supernatural happens is literally true, but still isn't what I would say. Baptism is the visible sign of something spiritual, namely their grafting into Christ's body.

Now clearly the children will be OK even if the Church for some reason refuses to baptize them. But I can't imagine that God will be pleased with your minister or elders when they come before him to account for themselves.

 

[AndrewZinc]

This is one of the vows that the believing parent(s) take in the Church of Scotland.

Do you promise, with the help of God, to teach your child the truths and duties of the Christian faith; and by prayer and example to bring them up in the life and worship of the church?

It could be considered that marriage is something that was ordained by God in Genesis 2:24 and therefore, a duty of the Christian faith. It would be hypocritical for the mother to teach her sons this (after taking a vow to do just that) when not being married to the father.

That was the reasoning of the minister. Our denomination allows the minister to interpret that, so many ministers would not have had a problem, and the family now go to a sister church although I'm not sure whether they have been baptised. However, I was in agreement with the minister. God did not make it optional.

Really the issue of living together whilst not married should have been addressed earlier, but church discipline is something that we are quite poor at.

 

[hedrick]

It could be considered that marriage is something that was ordained by God in Genesis 2:24 and therefore, a duty of the Christian faith. It would be hypocritical for the mother to teach her sons this (after taking a vow to do just that) when not being married to the father.

That was the reasoning of the minister. Our denomination allows the minister to interpret that, so many ministers would not have had a problem, and the family now go to a sister church although I'm not sure whether they have been baptised. However, I was in agreement with the minister. God did not make it optional.

Really the issue of living together whilst not married should have been addressed earlier, but church discipline is something that we are quite poor at.

I'm from a liberal church, so perhaps I am simply unable to understand. But I can't imagine that we require parents to be free of sin before we baptize their kids. I would certainly make sure that they are serious about the baptismal vows. I agree that they should set a good example. But all the parents I know are less than perfect at that. Do you have a specific list of sins that you consider unacceptable in parents, or is it just sexual sins? Would you refuse to baptise children of someone who is known to engage in shady business practices? One who gets angry a lot? One who is guilty of gluttony? Parents whose relationship is troubled?

If you're going to do church discipline, discipline the parents, not the kids.

 

[AndrewZinc]

There is no list of 'unacceptable sins' - that is a moot point as we all remain sinners. The question is, after something is pointed out, is there an attempt to get right with God? In this instance it seems she was affronted at being challenged, and clearly saw nothing that serious about not being married.

You could argue that was a failing on the church or minister's part. I also accept that this is something obvious and easy to target, other sins as you have mentioned may be harder to quantify. But should we ignore all sin then? That would be a dis-service to the children as I would question whether they are taking the vows seriously.

I'm reading a book just now on John Calvin, and he physically barred some members from taking Communion due to their sin (the Libertines) with the issue being that they refused to repent, or even admit they were doing wrong.

Sin is viewed extremely seriously by God. We are not expected to be sinless but to make efforts not to. If we are 'happy in sin' then there is something far wrong.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

A question for my Presbyterian brothers: If the children of believers are viewed as in the covenant, is this the case with all Christians, including credobaptists? Or, do you believe that infant baptism is that rite that places an infant into the covenant?

Thanks

Subscribing to this thread. It's a really interesting topic, and I'm one of those few Lutherans who thinks that the covenant theology of the Reformed tradition is an important resource for the catholic church.