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Courting Help

M

mr.white

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So I need some advice. I attend a strict Bible college which trains you to be a missionary. There is a girl here who likes me and I like her, well it is really more love than like. We are not allowed to kiss, spend time, or anything courting couples do because we have yet to go under the courting policy that is in place here. We kissed awhile back ago and she felt more remorse for it than I did because it was against the rules and by going against the rules we would be going against God. We told each other we wouldn't kiss again but we did and we continued to do so until Thursday when we were caught. We didn't suffer major consequences from it just if we do go under the policy we can't be alone together. This day it felt like my world came crashing down because like I failed her, my fellow classmates, and those who are here. On Saturday, I felt like I wanted to quit so I talked to someone and they told me to hold onto the moment in which God told me to come here and don't let go. He also told me that we should take a step back and wait for 7-9 months before we go under the policy and I think he said that because of a situation in which he went through. We decided we would take a step back and seek the Lord on where to go from here. Also, we will not have any physical contact, limit how much we talk to each other and at night write to each other the high and low points of our day as well as what God was teaching us today and anything else if we want to. I am seeking advice on many people about what to do here. I know I lost her trust and I need to step up and be a man which is what I began to do, because last night just felt like I had all the weight I was carrying lifted off my shoulders and just peace. It felt like and feels like the time when I quit drugs and alcohol and gave up my life of living in the world to live a life for Christ. It took me awhile and it hurts me I hurt God's daughter and hurt God in the process. So really I am asking advice on what to do. I know I have to build up her trust again, step up and lead, be transparent to all my classmates, and just not live life the was anymore and most importantly be patient. We have the romantic part down we just need to work on the friendship part. I think we should wait three weeks?
 

The Nihilist

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by going against the rules we would be going against God.

Your bible college is not god, and that they treat you like a child does not change that. Obedience is the virtue of children and the slaves; responsibility is the virtue of adults and free men. Follow the rules if you want, but that doesn't make you a man.
 
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Melethiel

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Just because it's against the rules doesn't make it a sin; it means that the rules are stupid. Now, I'm not encouraging you to break the rules if you want to continue attending this place, but now that what you've been doing isn't a sin per se.
 
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Luther073082

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I encourage you both to go elsewhere.

Your bible college is pretty bad at reading the bible apparently because no where in the bible does it say that kissing is a sin, yet somehow they have made it out to be.

Do you know what they call teaching something is a sin when there is no biblical reason to belive so. They call that legalism and heresy. The apostle Paul told us not to listen to heretics, so therefore I would say that he would also be pretty against going to a heretical bible college.

Really the only way you an truely follow God's word in this instance would be to leave that bible college and either transfer to a different one or go with a different line of work.

There are plenty of real sins out there to convict yourself of. You don't need a made up one to convict yourself of.

As Martin Luther said

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners.
 
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highlife

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I encourage you both to go elsewhere.

Your bible college is pretty bad at reading the bible apparently because no where in the bible does it say that kissing is a sin, yet somehow they have made it out to be.

Do you know what they call teaching something is a sin when there is no biblical reason to belive so. They call that legalism and heresy. The apostle Paul told us not to listen to heretics, so therefore I would say that he would also be pretty against going to a heretical bible college.

Really the only way you an truely follow God's word in this instance would be to leave that bible college and either transfer to a different one or go with a different line of work.

There are plenty of real sins out there to convict yourself of. You don't need a made up one to convict yourself of.

As Martin Luther said

The catholic church has a whole book that contains made up sins like sex that does not leave procreation open is a sin.
 
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Katarinea

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While kissing in and of itself isn't a sin, disobeying the rules is. The Bible says that we should follow the rules we are put under, and there's a pretty good chance that those rules are in place for two reasons.

Reason 1:
They are there in order to help you stay pure until marriage. It helps when you don't kiss, believe me, because kissing is a very sensual act. I go to a Bible college that doesn't allow anyone to touch the opposite gender unless the two are either married, or related to each other through blood.

Reason 2:
They're there to preserve the testimony of the college. If you were someone who was looking for something different than what the world offers, and you saw someone in a "such and such college" t-shirt making out with their girlfriend. . . it would show that they're no different than the other people in the world.

I would advise you seek God in order to remedy this "problem" -- He's the answer to everything. In the end, the question to ask about any given activity you're not sure about is "Does what I am doing or about to do glorify God?" You'll be surprised at the things that'll happen if you just ask that question.

A time where you do not touch would be beneficial, perhaps, because that way you know that the attraction is not merely physical. Do devotions together instead of separating. Study the Bible together, and that will add a spiritual dimension to your relationship that will make this relationship far beyond what you have ever known. I promise. :)
 
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Luther073082

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While kissing in and of itself is a sin, disobeying the rules is. The Bible says that we should follow the rules we are put under, and there's a pretty good chance that those rules are in place for two reasons.

It tells us to obey the governing authorities when their laws do not run counter to God's laws. It tells us to reject heretical religious authorities.

Reason 1:
They are there in order to help you stay pure until marriage. It helps when you don't kiss, believe me, because kissing is a very sensual act. I go to a Bible college that doesn't allow anyone to touch the opposite gender unless the two are either married, or related to each other through blood.

Heresy: Our purity is entirely in Christ and not in sexual inexperience. Your sexual inexperience will never save you, Christ will.

I find it funny how people who don't kiss and can't touch the opposite gender seem to know just exactly how sensual of an act kissing is. I kiss my wife every day, and the majority of those kisses are completly non sexual.

One can kiss in a non-sexual way.

BTW when I was at college I was on the ballroom dance team and did a lot of ballroom dancing for fun. I never had sex with any of the girls on the team, and we never came close. And yes we . . . touched! Thats kind of the nature of the sport.

Reason 2:
They're there to preserve the testimony of the college. If you were someone who was looking for something different than what the world offers, and you saw someone in a "such and such college" t-shirt making out with their girlfriend. . . it would show that they're no different than the other people in the world.

Kissing and making out are two entirely different things.

I would advise you seek God in order to remedy this "problem" -- He's the answer to everything. In the end, the question to ask about any given activity you're not sure about is "Does what I am doing or about to do glorify God?" You'll be surprised at the things that'll happen if you just ask that question.

I hate it when people use that question cause they never universally apply it. I take a shower every day. . . yet I see nothing about the act of taking a shower that "Glorifies God". I also go to the bathroom and sleep every day and yet there is nothing about that which glorifies God.

I think the better question is if what you are about to do upsets God's designs and order. And I can tell you that non-sexual kissing does not upset God's designs and order and its not disrespectful to God.

A time where you do not touch would be beneficial, perhaps, because that way you know that the attraction is not merely physical. Do devotions together instead of separating. Study the Bible together, and that will add a spiritual dimension to your relationship that will make this relationship far beyond what you have ever known. I promise. :)

I'm not sure you need a time of not touching to determine if everything is all about lust. The simple fact is that if you are doing what you are suppose to be doing and not having sex, you will lose interest really quickly if its lust.

Lust has fickle interests and when its desires arn't met, it looks elsewhere.

The catholic church has a whole book that contains made up sins like sex that does not leave procreation open is a sin.

Wrong the Roman Catholic Church has a book like that.

If you look I'm not a Roman Catholic I'm an Evangelical catholic. There is a major difference.

catholic - the word historically means universal. Saying you are catholic historically means that you are part of the universal Christian church. Most of the older traditions of Christianity such as Anglican/Episcopialian, Eastern Orthodox, Oriential Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Lutheran all claim to be catholic.

The reason the Roman Catholic church has it as part of their name is because in error they view themselves as being the one and only true universal church of Christ.

Evangelical - historically meant someone who belived that you where saved by grace alone through faith alone through Christ alone.

Unfortunutly many modern day "protestants" - (not that most of them know what the word protestant means either.) don't know the historical definitions of the words evangelical or catholic. So Catholic they take to mean Roman Catholic and they make up their own definition of the word evangelical.

Anyways to make a long story short, I will not defend a Roman Catholic doctrine unless its . . .

1. Is the same doctrine that is part of what I belive, teach, and confess as a confessional Lutheran Evangelical catholic.

2. The doctrine is being mis-stated or mis-interpreted as part of an anti-Roman Catholic rant. I don't care about people having problems with Roman Catholic doctrines, I have my own disagreements with them. But I've seen people outright lie about the Roman Catholic church to make them look bad. And I do have a problem when people, espeically Christians lie or twist the truth about others.

Type in Evangelical Catholic in Wikipedia and it might enlighten you a bit.
 
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Katarinea

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I never said that our purity is in sexual inexperience; far from it. I know that our purity is in Christ, and I am immensely glad of this. However, we are commanded to abstain from sexual sin, and these laws are simply in place to help people. Kisses between two people who are romantically involved can quickly become sensual, and I know this very well -- I have a spotted past before I came to college, and thus I was very glad for the rules. And again, I'm not saying that touching is bad, or innately sexual. I hug my female friends all the time, and when I get the chance, I love it when my boyfriend has his arm around my shoulders. In fact, touch is how I show affection to everyone, not just my significant other. Kissing and making out are different things, yes, but one can quickly segue into the other.

Showering, using the restroom, and sleeping can indeed glorify God -- you're taking care of the body God gave you, and it shows when you don't take care of it! It's a good question to ask. . .and it can and does apply to many things. "Does what I am about to eat glorify God? Will it give me energy instead of ruining my body? . .Does going to this place glorify God? . ." and so on.

I agree that lust runs away very quickly, but when I said physical attraction I didn't just mean lust. I mean infatuation as well, which can also be physically induced. I know quite well how that works, because my first (real) boyfriend and had a relationship that demanded touch. We were always holding hands, and when we didn't touch for a month and a half, my "love" quickly left.

Mr. White --

At the base of it all, though, is that you agreed to be put under these rules; you must follow them or risk reneging on your promise. Maybe I sound harsh, but I truly only wish for you to find the one God means for you to marry if He has someone for you! I will pray for you (if I remember; I have a notoriously bad memory!).
 
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The Nihilist

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At the base of it all, though, is that you agreed to be put under these rules; you must follow them or risk reneging on your promise. Maybe I sound harsh, but I truly only wish for you to find the one God means for you to marry if He has someone for you! I will pray for you (if I remember; I have a notoriously bad memory!).

Wrong. He hasn't sworn some sacred oath. This institution with which he has a business relationship wants him to do something dumb. He can either do as they wish and avoid any negative consequences, or he can be a man. Shoot, he can even terminate the relationship with the institution. None of this, though, is breaking a promise, none of it is lying, and none of it is sinning.

And God doesn't care who you marry, and there's nothing in the bible to indicate otherwise.
 
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Luther073082

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I never said that our purity is in sexual inexperience; far from it. I know that our purity is in Christ, and I am immensely glad of this.

Then don't say those rules are in place to help him maintain his purity. I'm sick and tired of the word "purity" meaning sexual inexperience to Christians. It sends the wrong message to both believers and unbelievers alike. It makes fornication into a sin that is only partially forgiveable at best and at worst completly unforgiveable. And it treats a person who has sex one time and quits as morally the same thing as a active prostitute because once virginity (AKA "purity) is lost it can't be regained.

It also puts in a strong moral hurt those people who are victims of rape.

Like it or not talking about purity and meaning the same thing as sexual inexperience or virginity you are changing the source of one's purity. Purity no longer becomes about Christ who died to make us pure once and for all and can not be lost so long as true faith is maintained. It instead becomes about sexual inexperience which can be lost via marriage, mistake, or rape.

However, we are commanded to abstain from sexual sin, and these laws are simply in place to help people. Kisses between two people who are romantically involved can quickly become sensual,

The pharisee's thought that walking too many steps on the Sabbath could quickly turn into work. So they made people count the number of steps they took and instituted a maximum in which they where allowed to take. They also wern't a fan of Jesus healing people on the Sabbath. Because apparently helping people looked too much like work to them.

and I know this very well -- I have a spotted past before I came to college, and thus I was very glad for the rules. And again, I'm not saying that touching is bad, or innately sexual. I hug my female friends all the time, and when I get the chance, I love it when my boyfriend has his arm around my shoulders. In fact, touch is how I show affection to everyone, not just my significant other. Kissing and making out are different things, yes, but one can quickly segue into the other.

Its all about having self control, maybe avoiding kissing in a private setting where sex would be possible might be smart. But these are self placed restrictions, not ones that God handed down or should be handed down by religious leaders.

Its unlikely however if you are nearby other people that if you kiss your romantic partner, even on the lips that its likely to lead to making out unless you really don't mind making out in front of people. In which case you have other problems to deal with.

Showering, using the restroom, and sleeping can indeed glorify God -- you're taking care of the body God gave you, and it shows when you don't take care of it! It's a good question to ask. . .and it can and does apply to many things. "Does what I am about to eat glorify God? Will it give me energy instead of ruining my body? . .Does going to this place glorify God? . ." and so on.

So is ice cream a sin then? What about looking up interest rates of Certificate of Deposits on the internet. Not sure how that glorifies God.

I agree that lust runs away very quickly, but when I said physical attraction I didn't just mean lust. I mean infatuation as well, which can also be physically induced. I know quite well how that works, because my first (real) boyfriend and had a relationship that demanded touch. We were always holding hands, and when we didn't touch for a month and a half, my "love" quickly left.

So you loved him simpily because you where holding hands. Never experienced a situation where simpily holding hands with someone made me love them. And I've held a lot of hands, I've held hands with women before I even knew their name. (Ballroom dancing)

At the base of it all, though, is that you agreed to be put under these rules; you must follow them or risk reneging on your promise.

While he agreed to be put under those rules, he's under no promise or oath to stay. In fact his promise to obey God trumps any other promise he has made. And because of that he should leave this legalistic and heretical "bible college".

I'm opposed to this belief that the best way to help people obey God's word is by adding more rules to it. Thats precisely the idea the pharisee's had and one of the major problems that Jesus had with them.

Luke 14:1-6 said:
1One Sabbath,(A) when he went to dine at the house of a ruler of the Pharisees, they were(B) watching him carefully. 2And behold, there was a man before him who had dropsy. 3And Jesus responded to(C) the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, (D) "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?" 4But they remained silent. Then he took him and healed him and sent him away. 5And he said to them, (E) "Which of you, having a son[a] or an ox that has fallen into a well on a Sabbath day, will not immediately pull him out?" 6(F) And they could not reply to these things.

The religious leaders read that God wanted people to have a day of rest and keep the sabbath holy. So they started instituting all of these rules as to how many steps one may take on the Sabbath. It made no sense and Jesus called it out as such.

Now I'm obviously no Jesus. However all I can see with these rules about kissing and touching (in non sexual ways still banned) as well as all these rules about "courting" instead of dating all of this being taught by a church, I can only see it as the same thing as the rules that where placed on the Sabbath by the Jews of old but now being placed on your romantic life by modern day Christians - (Who one would think would know better)

Modern day Christians have read that God doesn't want people to have sex before they are married. So they've taken and instuted a bunch of other rules with the idea that somehow these rules help people to not sin sexually. So their motives are again from the same place as the pharisee's motives.

But ultimatly Jesus wasn't a fan of the pharisee's methods despite their good motives. Thats why I'm not a fan of these methods either they are the same methods with the same intention, the only difference is the sin that one is trying to prevent.

And lets not forget that the road to hell can be paved with good intentions. (I know thats not biblical but it can be a true statement and I belive its true here. Quite literally in fact.)

And God doesn't care who you marry, and there's nothing in the bible to indicate otherwise.

Biblically speaking there is good reason to belive that God does not wish those who are already believers to marry unbelievers.

Also there is one passage in which God states he has a plan for you. I can't remember exactly where it is, but its a fairly popular passage. However a lot of times people draw too much out of that passage and begin to belive that God has planned out every minor detail of their lives.

However given that passage one can eatablish that God does have a plan for our lives. As to how detailed that plan is and what aspects he personally plans out, there is very biblical evidence to determine those things.
 
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The Nihilist

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Biblically speaking there is good reason to belive that God does not wish those who are already believers to marry unbelievers.
That's true, but I don't think that's Katarinea's position. I think her position is the same one Blue Sapphire was advocating a while back: that if you are faithful to God, your marriage is guaranteed. I think you've expressed elsewhere that you think this position is as ludicrous as I do.

Also there is one passage in which God states he has a plan for you. I can't remember exactly where it is, but its a fairly popular passage. However a lot of times people draw too much out of that passage and begin to belive that God has planned out every minor detail of their lives.

However given that passage one can eatablish that God does have a plan for our lives. As to how detailed that plan is and what aspects he personally plans out, there is very biblical evidence to determine those things.
The only one I can think of is when Jesus instructs his disciples not to worry about tomorrow. That you should note how pretty and well-clothed the flowers of the field and maybe the birds in the air are, and that they do not worry. Furthermore, if God cares for these things in this way, how much better will he care for you who he loves? Something to that affect. If there's something more specific you have in mind, do you think you could find it?
 
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highlife

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It tells us to obey the governing authorities when their laws do not run counter to God's laws. It tells us to reject heretical religious authorities.



Heresy: Our purity is entirely in Christ and not in sexual inexperience. Your sexual inexperience will never save you, Christ will.

I find it funny how people who don't kiss and can't touch the opposite gender seem to know just exactly how sensual of an act kissing is. I kiss my wife every day, and the majority of those kisses are completly non sexual.

One can kiss in a non-sexual way.

BTW when I was at college I was on the ballroom dance team and did a lot of ballroom dancing for fun. I never had sex with any of the girls on the team, and we never came close. And yes we . . . touched! Thats kind of the nature of the sport.



Kissing and making out are two entirely different things.



I hate it when people use that question cause they never universally apply it. I take a shower every day. . . yet I see nothing about the act of taking a shower that "Glorifies God". I also go to the bathroom and sleep every day and yet there is nothing about that which glorifies God.

I think the better question is if what you are about to do upsets God's designs and order. And I can tell you that non-sexual kissing does not upset God's designs and order and its not disrespectful to God.



I'm not sure you need a time of not touching to determine if everything is all about lust. The simple fact is that if you are doing what you are suppose to be doing and not having sex, you will lose interest really quickly if its lust.

Lust has fickle interests and when its desires arn't met, it looks elsewhere.



Wrong the Roman Catholic Church has a book like that.

If you look I'm not a Roman Catholic I'm an Evangelical catholic. There is a major difference.

catholic - the word historically means universal. Saying you are catholic historically means that you are part of the universal Christian church. Most of the older traditions of Christianity such as Anglican/Episcopialian, Eastern Orthodox, Oriential Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Lutheran all claim to be catholic.

The reason the Roman Catholic church has it as part of their name is because in error they view themselves as being the one and only true universal church of Christ.

Evangelical - historically meant someone who belived that you where saved by grace alone through faith alone through Christ alone.

Unfortunutly many modern day "protestants" - (not that most of them know what the word protestant means either.) don't know the historical definitions of the words evangelical or catholic. So Catholic they take to mean Roman Catholic and they make up their own definition of the word evangelical.

Anyways to make a long story short, I will not defend a Roman Catholic doctrine unless its . . .

1. Is the same doctrine that is part of what I belive, teach, and confess as a confessional Lutheran Evangelical catholic.

2. The doctrine is being mis-stated or mis-interpreted as part of an anti-Roman Catholic rant. I don't care about people having problems with Roman Catholic doctrines, I have my own disagreements with them. But I've seen people outright lie about the Roman Catholic church to make them look bad. And I do have a problem when people, espeically Christians lie or twist the truth about others.

Type in Evangelical Catholic in Wikipedia and it might enlighten you a bit.

That is interesting to know. So would the vatican and the pope be conisidered roman catholic, or is roman cathaolisism like a sort of cult of catholisism, I believe the vatican is sort of the head of all the other catholic churches through out the world, is it not? How can their be conflicting doctrine?
 
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Melethiel

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That is interesting to know. So would the vatican and the pope be conisidered roman catholic, or is roman cathaolisism like a sort of cult of catholisism, I believe the vatican is sort of the head of all the other catholic churches through out the world, is it not? How can their be conflicting doctrine?
Roman Catholicism is kind of shorthand for the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church; the Catholic Church (the institution based in the Vatican and led by the Pope) also has numerous other rites such as the Greek, Maronite, Melchite, etc, which are local culturally acceptable liturgies who pay allegiance to the Pope as the leader of the Church.

Evangelical Catholic is a term that many Lutherans use to describe ourselves; "Evangelical" due to our allegiance to the Gospel, "Catholic" used in the sense of "universal," (one holy, catholic, and apostolic church) not in the sense of "the institution headed by the Vatican."
 
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Luther073082

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That is interesting to know. So would the vatican and the pope be conisidered roman catholic, or is roman cathaolisism like a sort of cult of catholisism, I believe the vatican is sort of the head of all the other catholic churches through out the world, is it not? How can their be conflicting doctrine?

Its all about words. The word catholic historically meaning "the universal church" or "decended from the apostles" a lot of churchs that don't outright call themselves "The Catholic church" claim to also be catholic because they belive themselves to be the or at least a part of the universal church.

The Vadican in Rome with the pope rules over the Roman Catholic church which has several rites (basically traditions of worship) but by far the largest and what is most associated with them is the "Latin Rite" All Roman Catholic churchs are at one in doctrine with the pope.

However Eastern Orthodox Churchs, Lutherans, Anglicans, Oriental Orthodox and a few others are all different denominations with different doctrines but they all claim to be catholic.

The reasoning is major. If you read documents written by men who where only 2 generations removed from the Apostles. (In other words their mentor's mentor's where the actual apostles themselves) They will all say "If you arn't catholic you arn't Christian" Now this is at a time before there where clear denominations and no church called itself "the catholic church".

But what they did have was churchs that followed the apostle's teachings. (Which they referred to as being catholic) and churchs that didn't follow the apostle's teachings or made up their own but called themselves "Christian". Now remember that there wasn't a bible yet at this time. The documents existed but they had not yet been put together in one book and called "the bible". So since the bible had yet been put together what was important was if the church was following the apostle's teaching or not.

So if you where to say to an ancient Christian that you where not catholic, you would essentially be admiting that you where a heretic that made up his own doctrines.

Its sort of become a pet peeve of mine because 50 years ago, everyone knew this and no protestant, Evangelical catholic, Eastern Orthodox or any other Christian would ever refer to the Roman Catholic Church as just "The Catholic Church" or call a member of their church simpily a "Catholic".. Because saying so was basically the same thing as admitting that they where right! They ususally used some not so nice nicknames but purposefully avoided ever calling them "catholic".

Unfortunutly it seems as if the Roman Catholics have won the war of words by the simple ignorance of other Christians. By simple words and ignorance many protestants today admit that Roman Catholics are right and have been right all along.

I'm careful to always use the term Roman Catholic for this reason. In talking with Roman Catholics, its the least offensive term that I can use without outright admitting they are right through my words.

Does that make sense at all? It basically comes down to what the word "Catholic" means.

Roman Catholicism is kind of shorthand for the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church; the Catholic Church (the institution based in the Vatican and led by the Pope) also has numerous other rites such as the Greek, Maronite, Melchite, etc, which are local culturally acceptable liturgies who pay allegiance to the Pope as the leader of the Church.

Evangelical Catholic is a term that many Lutherans use to describe ourselves; "Evangelical" due to our allegiance to the Gospel, "Catholic" used in the sense of "universal," (one holy, catholic, and apostolic church) not in the sense of "the institution headed by the Vatican."

I think the term accuratlly describes all rites of the Roman Catholic Church. I don't think people who arn't Roman Catholics should refer to that Church as simpily "The Catholic Church" becuase by those very words you basically admit that they are right and you are the heretic.
 
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singpeace

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"I know I have to build up her trust again, step up and lead, be transparent to all my classmates, and just not live life the was anymore and most importantly be patient. We have the romantic part down we just need to work on the friendship part. I think we should wait three weeks?"


Good advise. You know what to do.
 
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dayhiker

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When I was looking at Bible colleges, I read the rules of one in NY. Sounds very similar to the rules your college has. I didn't go to that school because of those rules. One of the wise decisions I made in my life.

If you feel God has called you to be a missionary for the denomination then I'd stay there, other wise I'd encourage you to transfer to a college that will give you freedom to mature as a man and a degree that will help you in your career path.
 
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