Counting the cost...

[jenjen486]

These are some verses that come to mind when I think about what the cost truly is of following Christ. We must be willing to daily deny ourselves...all our ambitions,desires,lusts etc And, be willing to suffer as Christ suffered. Christ endured so much, yet he was perfection...so how much more do we deserve what he endured, being full of sin.
2Timothy 3:12-In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
Matthew 10:22-All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:9-“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
Hebrews 11:37-They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated—
Matthew 5:10-Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 14:26-“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

 

[Michaelismyname]

a cost surely i could not of myself endure . But by his grace and the power of his Spirit working mightily in us - he will take us wherever he knows we need to go and through whatever he knows we need to go through for our betterment .

all I can do is trust him and love him - because he first loved me

 

[candle glow]

Good topic.

I had a dream once where I was being led into a huge entertainment hall (like in a castle or something). I was in chains as a prisoner and dressed in rags. There was a whole gallery of wealthy people dressed up in fancy clothing and wigs. They were eating and drinking and laughing with one another.

I was led to the center of the room and then my head was chopped off and they all enjoyed it.

Upon awaking I felt a bit disturbed but had the same basic lesson Jen is sharing about here, about counting the cost.

Some of the more practical "count the cost" issues relate to secret disciplines like giving to charity, praying, and fasting.

Finances is also a HUGE issue which usually causes people to stumble. In the same chapter where Jesus talks about a king who goes to war but does not have enough soldiers to win or a person who starts a building project but does not have enough finances to finish, he says, "whosoever does not forsake all he owns cannot be my disciple". (Lk 14:33)

It's interesting that the word "disciple" literally means "one who is disciplined".

It looks to me like Jesus is telling people that if we are not prepared to deal decisively with our greed and materialism by literally forsaking all we have and sharing all things in common with other Christians, then we should not even start on the path of Christianity.

Jen, I think it's good that you mentioned family in your post, because I feel that is another one of the huge issues a lot of people deal with, because so often following Jesus involves significant life style changes (i.e. being born again) which family members may not only disagree with, but feel are "dangerous" (like forsaking all).

Because we love our family and our family loves us it can be extremely difficult to go against their desires for us. Count the cost.

 

[jenjen486]

I think these are verses that are looked over a lot. It's actually really sad when you think about how many people will go to the Lord and say...Lord, Lord, I did all these things...yet He never knew them. And that your own family can be the very ones against you. This is why I want to never forget to examine myself daily to see that I am in the faith. Even more so, I should do this so that I can be a vessel used to bring others along toward this wonderful salvation. As Paul knew at the end of his life...I want to know that I have done all I can for the sake of the Gospel.
John 16:1-All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you.
Matthew 10:34-Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household

 

[thesunisout]

These are some verses that come to mind when I think about what the cost truly is of following Christ. We must be willing to daily deny ourselves...all our ambitions,desires,lusts etc And, be willing to suffer as Christ suffered. Christ endured so much, yet he was perfection...so how much more do we deserve what he endured, being full of sin.
2Timothy 3:12-In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
Matthew 10:22-All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:9-“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
Hebrews 11:37-They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated—
Matthew 5:10-Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 14:26-“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

These verses are speaking of a reality that few Christians in the western hemisphere ever come into contact with. We have a very casual Christianity here in the United States, where it doesn't cost you much to make a profession of faith. This isn't so in many other countries in the world. There were over 150 thousand Christians martyred for their faith last year, throughout the world. There are stories about it nearly every day, although you won't usually find them through mainstream news sources. If you look, though, you will read about churches being blown up, entire communities persecuted and dislocated, Christian refugees fleeing their county with no place to go. These are people like you and me, brothers and sisters in the Lord. Paul said when one of us in the body suffers, that we all suffer with them.

There is no such thing as lukewarm Christianity in countries like Entrea, or North Korea. When you say that Christ is your Lord you put your neck on the line. You put the lives of your families and friends at risk. In North Korea, professing Christ openly can put your entire family into indentured servitude in prisons camps for the rest of their lives. If anything near that kind of persecution came to the United States, I shudder to think about how many brothers and sisters would be left standing here.

The scripture says we are killed all day long, and will be hated by *all* nations for His sake. I don't think any of us in the west have really comprehended that at all. In the United States, even though secularism is taking over the culture, we live very comfortable lives here. We have quite a bit of freedom to practice our faith. Scripture has told us that this could only ever be a temporary situation. Certainly, during the tribulation, every Christian in the world will face that reality.

Are we prepared? Certainly, it couldn't be under our own strength. However, we need to decide on who we are living for; Jesus or this world. If it is Jesus, we have to realize that could mean paying the ultimate price. Jesus said that he who endures to the end will be saved. There is no halfway in the Kingdom of Heaven. He said he who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven. We must trust in Jesus alone and not in the temporary things of this world. We can do all things, even these very hard things, through Him who strengthens us.

Revelation 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[candle glow]

These verses are speaking of a reality that few Christians in the western hemisphere ever come into contact with. We have a very casual Christianity here in the United States, where it doesn't cost you much to make a profession of faith. This isn't so in many other countries in the world. There were over 150 thousand Christians martyred for their faith last year, throughout the world. There are stories about it nearly every day, although you won't usually find them through mainstream news sources. If you look, though, you will read about churches being blown up, entire communities persecuted and dislocated, Christian refugees fleeing their county with no place to go.

Hmmm, it's amazing that we can disagree so sharply on some issues, and yet what you've said here makes perfect sense and encourages me to think more clearly about my brothers/sisters around the world.

The scripture says we are killed all day long, and will be hated by *all* nations for His sake. I don't think any of us in the west have really comprehended that at all. In the United States, even though secularism is taking over the culture, we live very comfortable lives here. We have quite a bit of freedom to practice our faith. Scripture has told us that this could only ever be a temporary situation. Certainly, during the tribulation, every Christian in the world will face that reality.

Except for the part about "I don't think any of us in the west", I very much agree with the argument you've presented here. I remember when I first read that verse about dying all the day long (rom 8). It seemed like such an awe inspiring thought; it was almost like boasting about dying for God. It was not religious jargon, or a "salvation message", or something to be feared, but an example of real, honest-to-God faith.

Anyway, thanks for referencing that verse, sunny. In fact, you also referenced other verse about overcoming and overcoming by not loving our lives even unto death.

I feel very encouraged by your post and I look forward to finding more common ground with you.

 

[candle glow]

It's actually really sad when you think about how many people will go to the Lord and say...Lord, Lord, I did all these things...yet He never knew them. And that your own family can be the very ones against you.

About 10 years ago there was a young guy who wanted to work with us. After a week or so of teaching him what we were really all about, he decided that he still wanted to work with us and committed to forsaking all. He had a girl friend and a fairly decent relationship with his family, but he wanted something more.

His girl friend was violently opposed to his decision and tried everything she could to stop him from working with us. She tried all kinds of emotional black mail on him (don't you love me anymore, if you really loved me you wouldn't do this, etc).

Of course, if she really loved him and wanted to be with him, all she had to do was follow him. But she didn't want his beliefs, she wanted the emotional support he offered her.

It was difficult for him to go through that, but his mother made it even MORE difficult because she was also violently opposed to his decision. He had a background in drug use and decided to look for God as a result of a drug deal gone bad where he had a loaded gun pointed in his face and was robbed. He felt that he should have died that day, but for some reason God spared him and he wanted to follow Jesus as a result.

Because of his history, he was on a 6 month probation by the state. His mother knew this and threated to call his probation officer with reports of a false crime in order to get him locked up, whatever it took to stop him from committing his life to the teachings of Jesus. It was shocking.

We called his probation officer to let him know that this woman may call him with false reports in order to punish her son and he was surprisingly sympathetic with our plight. Fortunately, nothing came of her threats and a couple years later, while on an extended outreach, we drover through his home town on the way back to texas and spent Christmas with his family. They were very nice about it.

Seems like they just needed some time to get over the initial shock of him going to such extremes to follow Jesus, though it doesn't work that way for all families.

 

[thesunisout]

Hmmm, it's amazing that we can disagree so sharply on some issues, and yet what you've said here makes perfect sense and encourages me to think more clearly about my brothers/sisters around the world.



Except for the part about "I don't think any of us in the west", I very much agree with the argument you've presented here. I remember when I first read that verse about dying all the day long (rom 8). It seemed like such an awe inspiring thought; it was almost like boasting about dying for God. It was not religious jargon, or a "salvation message", or something to be feared, but an example of real, honest-to-God faith.

Anyway, thanks for referencing that verse, sunny. In fact, you also referenced other verse about overcoming and overcoming by not loving our lives even unto death.

I feel very encouraged by your post and I look forward to finding more common ground with you.

Hey bro, I am glad that you got something out of it. I appreciate your comments here and I'm thankful we can share something more than our differences. I imagine since we both love the Lord that we have more in common than we might have thought. I will reply more later, have to run. God bless you.

 

[jenjen486]

Sun- Thank you for your post. America makes it so easy to be a lukewarm christian. We have a government that promotes there being more than one way...when we know that there is only one Truth! They promote tolerance of all beliefs...but that is not what Christ preached. Paul even said...if anyone comes to you preaching another Gospel, let him be accursed. America says lets agree to disagree, love everyone, afterall we are all pointing towards the same God. That is a lie created by Satan! There is only one narrow way to reach the One Living God. We can't serve two masters. There is Satan tied in with the pleasures of this world, or there is Almighty God who created this world and will pour out His wrath on it and all those who reject His mercy.

 

[jenjen486]

John(candleglow) I have seen several situations like yours, by people who have come to live with us. I was actually just talking about that today. Sadly, I usually see the wife/girlfriend using her manipulation/womanly charms to persuade the man that she knows best. It's true. If she really loved him then she would submit herself to him and follow him. I was telling one of my sisters how it seems like i could never fall into something like that...but there is a reason the word says our hearts can be deceiving. We must all constantly be on guard of even ourselves...b/c there is none good but the Father!

 

[thesunisout]

Sun- Thank you for your post. America makes it so easy to be a lukewarm christian. We have a government that promotes there being more than one way...when we know that there is only one Truth! They promote tolerance of all beliefs...but that is not what Christ preached. Paul even said...if anyone comes to you preaching another Gospel, let him be accursed. America says lets agree to disagree, love everyone, afterall we are all pointing towards the same God. That is a lie created by Satan! There is only one narrow way to reach the One Living God. We can't serve two masters. There is Satan tied in with the pleasures of this world, or there is Almighty God who created this world and will pour out His wrath on it and all those who reject His mercy.

Jen, no problem and thank you for starting this dialogue. I feel you are right about what you say. Our government is definitely following the politically correct, anti-christian agenda of promoting many paths and many truths. This is of course, Satanic. Not too long ago, though, our government used to promote and defend Christian liberties, recognizing them as the founding principle our republic rests upon. There was a Supreme Court case in 1892 regarding an employment contract with a pastor from England (Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States). This was the conclusion of the court:

The Court concluded:

"There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning; they affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons: they are organic utterances; they speak the voice of the entire people.
... These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States - Conservapedia

You'll never hear about that in an American history class. This is because our Christian origins have largely been scrubbed from the educational curriculum. This is a huge problem for America, because godly principles are not being passed down to the next generation. We see the fruit of this everywhere; broken marriages and broken families, teen pregnancy and abortion on demand, and just the rampant increase of sin in general. Our country is moving farther and farther away from biblical morality, and this could be partly attributed to a nationwide amnesia about where we came from. After all, if we don't know where we came from, how will we know where we're going? A person growing up outside the faith, as I did, most likely has no actual clue about what kind of part Christianity played in the founding of our nation. They will most likely assume that the Government has always been secular, and should remain that way, but at least one of our founders would not agree with that conclusion:

No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.

Noah Webster

Of course that is another quote you will never hear at school. This is because public education today equals secular humanism, and secular humanism is hostile to our faith. It is promoted, though, as a middle ground between different religions, of course in the name of "tolerance". Yet this is another big lie that some Christians have swallowed. How can secular humanism be a middle ground when it promotes an atheistic worldview? This perceptive Doctor saw it coming over 100 years ago:

Engine of Atheism, by A. A. Hodge - edited: Hisways USA, Inc.

The truth is, there is no middle ground in this world. Jesus said you are either with Me or against Me. There are two kingdoms in this world: The Kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. We are all citizens of one or another. So when someone tells you to put down the bible and come to a middle ground, what they're really asking you to do is disarm and surrender.

Lukewarm Christianity is the direct result of trying to serve two masters, of trying to maintain dual citizenship in both kingdoms. It is a failure to honor God as God, and separate ourselves from this world. Satan is waging war against us through the lusts of our flesh and the vanity of our minds, trying to plant his seed and raise up a harvest of unrighteousness. We have to exercise discernment and recognize that while society is demanding that we pay homage to the false idols Satan has created for us to worship (money, power, celebrity, sex, ourselves), God demands our whole heart and will settle for nothing less. We have to understand the spiritual battle and see that this is the choice we face every day; who will you serve? Joshua summed it up well:

Joshua 24:15

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

 

[jenjen486]

Sun-One thing I dont understand is how people believe that this country was founded upon God. I in no way see how God would start up a democracy when the only government He ever allowed in His word was a kingship, and even then He didnt see it as the perfect way.

 

[candle glow]

Sun-One thing I dont understand is how people believe that this country was founded upon God. I in no way see how God would start up a democracy when the only government He ever allowed in His word was a kingship, and even then He didnt see it as the perfect way.

Actually, there were some pretty sincere people who helped in the development of America. Back when it was first getting started the Quakers were extremely influential in policy making.

These were people who were persecuted for their faith in England, and to some degree even in America, because of their extreme religious views. For example, it was customary for common people to "doff" their hats to those who were seen to be more important and respected than normal folks.

But the Quakers refused to follow such a practice, claiming that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

There was also a custom that people use special words to show respect, using "thee" and "thou", but they refused to follow the custom and used the same words for all people. (they called this "plain speech").

They also refused to make promises and had very strong beliefs against war. All of these issues (+others) combined to significantly influence the creation of America, but also caused them a lot of persecution, too.

 

[thesunisout]

Sun-One thing I dont understand is how people believe that this country was founded upon God. I in no way see how God would start up a democracy when the only government He ever allowed in His word was a kingship, and even then He didnt see it as the perfect way.

Well, the first thing I would point you to is the word of God:

Romans 13:1

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Our government was established by God according to scripture, so it isn't a question of whether God had something to do with it. You're right, in that the United States is not a theocracy like Israel was. You have to remember, though, that Israel had a covenant with God. Israel is unique because of that.

I am not saying the United States was founded on a covenant with God like Israel was. Technically, you can say that the United States was founded in rebellion against the British Empire. What I am saying is that this country was founded on the principles of the Christian religion. They are interwoven in at the roots. I'm also saying this has always been a Christian nation. For instance, did you know that public education in America was started under this act of law?:

The Old Deluder Satan Act:

It being one chief project of that old deluder, Satan, to keep men from the knowledge of the Scriptures, as in former times by keeping them in an unknown tongue, so in these latter times by persuading from the use of tongues, that so that at least the true sense and meaning of the original might be clouded and corrupted with false glosses of saint-seeming deceivers; and to the end that learning may not be buried in the grave of our forefathers, in church and commonwealth, the Lord assisting our endeavors.

It is therefore ordered that every township in this jurisdiction, after the Lord hath increased them to fifty households shall forthwith appoint one within their town to teach all such children as shall resort to him to write and read, whose wages shall be paid either by the parents or masters of such children, or by the inhabitants in general, by way of supply, as the major part of those that order the prudentials of the town shall appoint; provided those that send their children be not oppressed by paying much more than they can have them taught for in other towns.

And it is further ordered, that when any town shall increase to the number of one hundred families or householders, they shall set up a grammar school, the master thereof being able to instruct youth so far as they may be fitted for the university, provided that if any town neglect the performance hereof above one year that every such town shall pay 5 pounds to the next school till they shall perform this order.

deluder.html

Pretty amazing what they don't teach you in school, isn't it? So, to sum up, I was not trying to make the case that America was some kind of sequel to Israel. I was simply saying that we were founded on judeo-christian beliefs, and have always been a Christian nation until more recently.

 

[jenjen486]

Well the Word says in Samuel that God did not want to give them a king b/c He wanted to be their king but the people pleaded for it continuously. God ordained a king that He chose to work through...although it was not His perfect way. How, according to the Word, can He create a democracy that allows people to vote for what is best...when it is His commands we are to obey. Wouldnt that be like saying...well we all vote to follow these teachings...but not these?

 

[thesunisout]

to add to my other post:

Yes,the concept of a democracy is antithetical to Gods absolute rule, but then again so is much of what human beings do on Earth. I think it's pretty clear that God has blessed the United States; how else would it climb to the top of the food chain and become the most powerful nation on Earth? Only God could put it there. The president is also like a King, and the office of the presidency is the most powerful office on Earth. You can't really measure anything off of the unique situation of Israels covenant with God. He can appoint rulers of democracies just as easily as He can appoint kings.

 

[jenjen486]

Well, the first thing I would point you to is the word of God:

Romans 13:1

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

I am not denying that God allowed the democracy to be set up. As for this verse, we do not submit ourselves to those who are outside of Christ.
1Corinthians 2:6-
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
I am also aware of this law...schools were created to distract children from learning about the Word...that their minds would be filled with wisdom of the world, which is foolishness in Gods sight.

 

[thesunisout]

I am not denying that God allowed the democracy to be set up. As for this verse, we do not submit ourselves to those who are outside of Christ.
1Corinthians 2:6-
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
I am also aware of this law...schools were created to distract children from learning about the Word...that their minds would be filled with wisdom of the world, which is foolishness in Gods sight.

Paul submitted himself to the Roman government which was persecuting and martyring Christians. We must submit ourselves to the authority of our governments and rebelling against that authority is rebelling against God:

Romans 13:2

Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves

The laws that we are not obliged to follow are those which contradict the commands God has given us to do. For instance, it isn't wrong to preach the gospel in a country that has made it illegal to do so.

 

[jenjen486]

to add to my other post:

Yes,the concept of a democracy is antithetical to Gods absolute rule, but then again so is much of what human beings do on Earth. I think it's pretty clear that God has blessed the United States; how else would it climb to the top of the food chain and become the most powerful nation on Earth? Only God could put it there. The president is also like a King, and the office of the presidency is the most powerful office on Earth. You can't really measure anything off of the unique situation of Israels covenant with God. He can appoint rulers of democracies just as easily as He can appoint kings.

It seems to use that example of it being the most powerful nation on earth, would be the same as saying...How did Obama climb all the way up to become leader of this great nation, as if that is an accomplishment that God would bless him with? God allows those things but only so that He may be glorified, when His children see past this kingdom of earth and look on to the Kingdom in Heaven.

 

[thesunisout]

It seems to use that example of it being the most powerful nation on earth, would be the same as saying...How did Obama climb all the way up to become leader of this great nation, as if that is an accomplishment that God would bless him with? God allows those things but only so that He may be glorified, when His children see past this kingdom of earth and look on to the Kingdom in Heaven.

I don't think 'allows' is the right word. Scripture says in many places that God appoints leaders:

Dan 4:17 The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, the decision by the word of the holy ones, to the end that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will and sets over it the lowliest of men

God is sovereign, and He gives power over the nations to whomever He wants. Can you say God didn't appoint Obama to the presidency? Scripture indicates that He does do that very thing. Whomever our leaders are, scripture tells us to respect those in authority and also to pray for them:

Romans 13:6-7

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing

Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

1 Peter 2:17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth