Counseling Statement / Article 15

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Ok my first anniversary in the Army and I got in trouble, really messed up situation, I want to tell you guys what happened so maybe you can tell me if I will get an Article 15.

This past weekend I made plans with the boss of Cp Humphreys Library, a flying WO1 from bible study group and a Korean KATUSA guy to go off-post, see a movie, have something to eat. We did go and did see places however I never even imagined this would cause a big problem like what happened Saturday, I am still not feeling good. We went and saw the movie, got out and had lunch at a Korean place, this was off post but about 7 miles out. Then while we were going back, Librarian dude asked to go find the Turkish restaurant. I said OK, Katusa and WO1 headed back to barracks and we hopped on a train to go Seoul (I just wish I should have gone back with them.) Noone's fault, there is a lesson to learn. My cell phone died because of the messed up battery around noon. I didn't really care because noone ever calls me. There was going to be an anti-American demonstration on Sunday here so in Saturday 1430 afternoon, some general's decided to give a formation alert to pull everyone back. Make sure everyone is safe and sound. Well, noone could reach me. I didn't even think there would be an alert on a Saturday so never even thought of calling back. I came back at 21:15 at night and got on the computer, around 22:15 one of my friends from barracks frantically knocked on the door and then told me the situation. I called my squad leader from his phone and then they called me to the company building.

It turns out they held 400+ people waiting for me around 3 hours. They released them after that and I heard supposedly they reported to the general, I was not able to be reached. Half of Korean US forces learnt my name, as missing. (Sounds exaggeration to me) Company commander and first sergeant had decided to go for UCMJ. My squad leader (SSG) and team leader (SPC) had said "no he is new and he is a good soldier" They ended up giving me a counseling statement that night. Platoon sgt asked me what happened and I explained the situation, I told him I have no excuse, it was my irresponsiblility and inexperience in the service, and won't happen again. He told me that is the right answer. However CO and 1SG wanted UCMJ but since my people stood up for me, they will give me this counseling statement for now. Counseling statement explains my faults and what is required of me. Also there is some corrective actions such as recommendation for 14 days of no off post privileges, signing up at CQ every night at 2000 etc. I am ok with that but now my team leader is scaring me that I will get a field grade because I went to Seoul without a pass and had the commander waiting for 8 hours... This is already discussed in my counseling statement and I accepted responsibility, I told my plt sgt that I had misunderstood pass policy during initial counseling, I would have never gone there if I knew I had to have a pass. My team leader says it can be 3 to 4 months they will call you down to Company and let you know you will get an Article 15 for this, or they can let you know this week, that you are pending UCMJ. My counseling statement was approved by my plt sgt and squad ldr, but I don't know if 1SG or Co approved it. What if they didn't and they will call me in for Article 15 ? 3 - 4 months later???

I feel bad and so worried. All my career plans plus most likely my military citizenship application will go down the drain if I get an article 15. My friends tell me that I already got a counseling statement and I won't get another punishment.

Can you enlightment me about this situation?

I read my counseling statement again, it says my plt sgt recommends to the CO that my off privileges suspended for 14 days, it doesn't say anything about recommending Ar. 15 or any other UCMJ.

Can the commander go ahead and give me one on his own decision because I made him wait? Or they would just take heed to my plt sgt's recommendation that I am a good soldier and won't repeat it again?

 

[Genesis1]

I have been out of the military (army) for a few years, but if it is still the same way, you have already been punished and issued a counseling statement. So I don't believe you will get an Article 15. Also, because you are new, and don't know any better, they will try to scare you into believing you career is at stake, etc., If you are too embarrassed or ashamed to ask your squad leader or plt sgt, call you you JAG and ask anonymously about your rights!!

also PRAY!!!! and stay out of trouble SOLDIER!!!!!

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

At ease my friend, at ease.

I happen to be "The Counciling Tsunami" ( Lightning strikes coupled with a bicep pose ) and you my friend are in the clear.

If you received a counciling statement, you have already been punished and it's in bad form for your Company chain of command to follow up with UCMJ action.

Basicly, a negatgive counciling statement is next to nothing. It'll be filed away in your counciling packet with your intial and monthly counciling. Everyone gets negative counciling statements in their career, it's the way it is. They only really start to bite you in the butt, if you start making a habit out of them, at which point, someone can make a case out of chaptering you out of the Army based on them.

Now, if your Company Chain of Command decides to UCMJ you anyways, the worst they can do is a Company grade, which can be, extra duty ( 14, 30,45 days ,etc,etc ) Loss of rank and/or pay reduction. Sucks, but again, Company Article 15s don't follow you far. I'm willing to bet most CSMs in the Army have a few of them.

If "The Man" wanted to put your jewels in the vice, then thats a feild grade or summary Article 15, at which, you would already be aware of that, since they would have you battalian area restriction. You and you entire chain of Command up to the Comapny CO would be standing on the rug before "The Man"

Basicly, the CO and 1st Sausage are using some mighty fine scare tactics. Likely, no one in your company will make the same mistake, and you won't either I imagine

So, take a knee, face out, drink some water and drive on!

 

[Autumnleaf]

As I don't know your exact chain of command the following is based on the people you mentioned. If you have a Jr. officer to the company commander over you I would approach them instead. This is usually best done when you pass by them and they ask 'How are things going trooper?' but it can be done in other circumstances.

If I were you I'd ask the 1st Sgt or Commander as you pass them at work, when they are not busy or in an obvious bad mood, what the scoop is on that counseling statement because you really feel bad about it but you also love the army and want to stay in for 30 years and you just can't bear the thought of having to be a sloppy civilian soon because of some dumb knuckleheaded mistake. Then be quiet and let them lecture you, act interested, and they will probably let you off easy. The key is timing and sincerity.

 

[awildflowerlady]

At ease my friend, at ease.

I happen to be "The Counciling Tsunami" ( Lightning strikes coupled with a bicep pose ) and you my friend are in the clear.

If you received a counciling statement, you have already been punished and it's in bad form for your Company chain of command to follow up with UCMJ action.

Basicly, a negatgive counciling statement is next to nothing.

Just to be sure he should speak to the JAG office. You have to be very careful when you are overseas and for whatever reason to not obey the "curfew"/"not allowed" orders.

Speak to someone at your local JAG and see if you can get their advice in writing. Usually JAG offers a walk in service on certain days of the week. If you do not have a local office, phone the one nearest you. If they will not speak specifically to your situation, see the JAG officer assigned to your unit - all units (within the Navy at least) have them. Keep in mind, however, that sometimes the person assigned to be a unit JAG never had that job before and it became one of those extra duties to fulfill the unit's need to have a name sitting in that assignment space. That person may not know what the heck they are doing.

ALWAYS double check everything you are told against the code of conduct articles that general admins issue.

Best wishes on quickly putting this issue behind you!

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

If I were you I'd ask the 1st Sgt or Commander as you pass them at work, when they are not busy or in an obvious bad mood, what the scoop is on that counseling statement because you really feel bad about it but you also love the army and want to stay in for 30 years and you just can't bear the thought of having to be a sloppy civilian soon because of some dumb knuckleheaded mistake. Then be quiet and let them lecture you, act interested, and they will probably let you off easy. The key is timing and sincerity.

Might get him into more hot water, by skipping your chain of command.

Depends on the 1st Sgt, but they ones I know wouldn't appreciate Private Snaplink approaching them, asking about counciling statement.

You could invoke the open door policy and apologize in private.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Just to be sure he should speak to the JAG office. You have to be very careful when you are overseas and for whatever reason to not obey the "curfew"/"not allowed" orders.

My opinion, this would be making a mountion out of a mole hill. If they gave hima negative counciling statement, then he is punished ( On the Army side, that is. )

Granted, this is all Barracks Lawyer chatter, but this kind of thing isn't that uncommon. Missing a suprise weekend formation isn't the kinda thing you get chaptered out of the Army for.

This should all be handeled at the SL level tho, I just wouldn't take off to JAG, can upset those who are sticking up for you.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Hoah thanks,

I was told today that I am going to be doing detail (cleaning up a building) all day long. It's fine with me, as long as I don't get an article 15. I know I will lose my opportunity to go to WOCS with an article 15. They won't pass me on the selection board since I have to disclose all the article 15's... That is what I am worried about in the first place.

Bourbon, being Army, he pretty much summarized what I have already kid of heard. They told me they are going to make an appointment so the CO would talk to me but didn't happen yesterday and won't happen today because of the detail I will be doing.

I already apologized many times to my PLT SGT, SQUAD LDR, and TEAM LDR. I know better not to skip them and go to 1SG or CO myself. I should accomplish something else and prove myself. Starting with the plan of action on my counseling statement, not leaving post for 14 days and signing in everyday at 2000 at CQ.

 

[daveleau]

First, an article 15 is not a career ender. We are in a 1-mistake military. You can recover, even if you get the worst case treatment here. We had a MSgt brief us on recovering from mistakes. He had received an Article 15 for a DUI and had recovered. Granted, if oyu were an officer, your career would be over. But, since you are enlisted, you should recover to have a full career, even if you do receive an Article 15.

As for finding out what happens next, keep asking your SQ Sgt and others who talk to the Shirt about whether further things can come from this. If they are doing what they should (looking out for their men), then they will get you the info. Chances are, the CO and Shirt are upset. Give them a little time to get through the weekend to see how things go.

I will pray for God's Hand to be on this situation and that His will is implemented and revealed to you.

God bless you,
Dave

 

[daveleau]

Hoah thanks,

I was told today that I am going to be doing detail (cleaning up a building) all day long. It's fine with me, as long as I don't get an article 15. I know I will lose my opportunity to go to WOCS with an article 15. They won't pass me on the selection board since I have to disclose all the article 15's... That is what I am worried about in the first place.

Bourbon, being Army, he pretty much summarized what I have already kid of heard. They told me they are going to make an appointment so the CO would talk to me but didn't happen yesterday and won't happen today because of the detail I will be doing.

I already apologized many times to my PLT SGT, SQUAD LDR, and TEAM LDR. I know better not to skip them and go to 1SG or CO myself. I should accomplish something else and prove myself. Starting with the plan of action on my counseling statement, not leaving post for 14 days and signing in everyday at 2000 at CQ.

I think you are handling this well. Make it known to them that you are coming to them before you go to the CO or Shirt.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Granted, if oyu were an officer, your career would be over. But, since you are enlisted, you should recover to have a full career, even if you do receive an Article 15.

That is what I want to know, if I get one in this case, then I have to disclose to the officer schoo selection board, it will not look good to them when it comes to pick me up for the school.

 

[Glaz]

That is what I want to know, if I get one in this case, then I have to disclose to the officer schoo selection board, it will not look good to them when it comes to pick me up for the school.

I doubt it will make or break your selection. You'd need to show a pattern of bad behaviour and one negative counseling statement doesn't do that.

 

[daveleau]

An Article 15 would delay your ability to go to OTS/OCS. I am not sure what effect it would have regarding WOCS, since the USAF does not have WOs. I don't know what the selection process is. It wouldn't preclude you from regular OTS/OCS, but you'd have to show significant "change" (I know this incident is not indicative of your career) and superior performance over a non-Art. 15 applicant. Counseling will not affect your ability to get in. Does your branch have LOCs? Letters of Counseling (LOCs) are paperwork the USAF uses to document non-Art 15 "punishment".

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Does your branch have LOCs? Letters of Counseling (LOCs) are paperwork the USAF uses to document non-Art 15 "punishment".

Probably they have something similar but I am not familiar with all these punishment issues, I never get in trouble, I got in trouble this time for something I didn't know, I am sure God was teaching me a lesson here, I wasn't really happy here lately, I don't like Korea much, away from family, being older in an enlisted position and working with immature kids who are not Christians at all, I had enough of it and I was at all times. Needed an attitude change.

I have a feeling that this will stay with the counseling statement right now and I have to be more careful in everything I do.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Bushmaster,

Hehe, yea, figured you'd be "numero uno" on the detail list. Sounds like the worst has blown over.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Yea man, hey listen,

I am supposed to be up for automatic (PFC) promotion on Friday. Can they delay that and not call me up there during closing formation? If they don't call me for promotion on Friday, would that be a sign that something is coming my way?

 

[daveleau]

Only a very poor commander and staff would do that. I hope that leaders that work in that way are not still in the Armed Forces. 99% of US military leaders will let you know beforehand of anything like this. Not only is a pretty dirty thing but it would be undermining their own image because of the chances of an awkward moment in front of the audience or an outburst. You should be able to pick out their leadership style after a year, and know if they are these types of leaders (and if they are, I use the term loosely). My belief is that if you get into the formation with no mention of anything about the promotion, you are golden. You could also ask your SQ or PL leader to see if he has any intel on the promotion.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Yea man, hey listen,

I am supposed to be up for automatic (PFC) promotion on Friday. Can they delay that and not call me up there during closing formation? If they don't call me for promotion on Friday, would that be a sign that something is coming my way?

Natch, unless you get flagged/barred, the promotion is automatic.

They might forget and not pin you that specific day, but your LES should read E-3.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Thanks guys,

Since it is mid month can't see the full LES yet but my ERB says I am E3 now. I talked to my team leader about it and he told me that my name is up on the list on CO's desk.

Laying low so far, and doing whatever detail is out there. Nothing serious yet. I don't think it will come to an article 15 at all.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Congrats on the rocker, soon, you'll be inducted into the Spec-4 Mafia