Could this generation of creationists be the last?

[Inan3]

Just give in to them because their whole religion depends on what Atheists (and others) believe, it's very important to them,
because they're going through hell they need to drag as many as they can with them.

I'm not going through or to hell, I've been delivered from it.

 

[MoonLancer]

What do you mean?

God created Adam a human and you guys turned him into an ape.

Actually you turned humans into a pile of mud.

 

[mathclub]

Given that scientists are pushing back the boundaries of ignorance further and further every year do you think that this generation of creationists could well be the last generation of creationists?

When you look at what has happened in the last 50 years it makes one wonder what the next 50 years will bring.

Please let's not argue for or against this advancment of knowledge let's just accept that it will come no matter what.

No it won't be. Creationists will probably never die out totally, but they will eventually decline.

Science has alredy proved evolution over and over. The issue today is not that science hasn't proved it, it's that people simply refuse to accept what is a blatant truth. With the mindset of these people moving forward, it is irrelevant what science proves.

I mean young earthers are the best example. If they refuse to accept the earth is older than 10,000 years with all of the mountains of evidence out there, what difference does it make what else science proves?

None, people will reject it in the face of all the evidence, simply because it contradicts their religious beliefs.

It's sad, especially in a country like America that is a world leader in many regards but totally backwards in others, but it's the way it is.

 

[mathclub]

Not rude nor nonesense. You put your faith in something that cannot be proved or seen. You have to BELIEVE certain aspects of science because they cannot be see only explained or speculated.

Religion Definition
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

If you are trying to say that science is some sort of religion, which it seems to me is exactly what you are trying to do, then your own definition has proven you wrong.

Science does not accept 'superhuman agency or agencies', it does not have 'devotional or ritual observances' and it does not provide 'a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs'.

It also does not have 'faith', unless you change the definition of the word.

Don't think i've seen many more statements that are more demonstrably incorrect.

If you weren't trying to say science is some kind of religion, then I take it back, but that's how I read your post.

 

[Assyrian]

Just because you USED to be a creationist does not mean you understood it.

I thought one of the arguments for creationism is that it is so simple even a child could understand it?

Why would He?

Because it was important? Because there were Jews around at the time like Josephus and Philo interpreting Genesis allegorically and an allegorical interpretation of Genesis would completely undermine everything Christ came to do and teach, his very death on the cross, and the testimony of his followers who would write about it in the NT.

 

[driewerf]

Creationists created the creator.

Even that is giving them too much credit.

 

[visa]

I'm not going through or to hell, I've been delivered from it.

Of course you have.

 

[AV1611VET]

Actually you turned humans into a pile of mud.

That would be "dust", MoonLancer.

You're the one adding water.

 

[Assyrian]

That would be "dust", MoonLancer.

You're the one adding water.

Gen 2:6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground-- 7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground.

That was Moonlancer? Wow, thanks Lance.

 

[AV1611VET]

Gen 2:6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground-- 7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground.

That was Moonlancer? Wow, thanks Lance.

I'm sure you realize verse 7 is parenthetical? maybe not.

Note also, thanks now to entropy, we return to dust -- not mud:

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

And are you "mud" or "dust"?

 

[Inan3]

I thought one of the arguments for creationism is that it is so simple even a child could understand it?

Because it was important? Because there were Jews around at the time like Josephus and Philo interpreting Genesis allegorically and an allegorical interpretation of Genesis would completely undermine everything Christ came to do and teach, his very death on the cross, and the testimony of his followers who would write about it in the NT.

Got any references to support your allegations?

 

[Assyrian]

I'm sure you realize verse 7 is parenthetical? maybe not.

It doesn't actually say that in the text

Note also, thanks now to entropy, we return to dust -- not mud:

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

And are you "mud" or "dust"?

I'm about 65% water, that would make me mud or clay. Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand. Mud and clay are both great metaphors for human mortality, I wouldn't get hung up on water content.

 

[Assyrian]

Got any references to support your allegations?

Philo of Alexandria (c 20 BCE - c 50 CE) Allegorical Interpretation 1.2.2
"'And God finished on the sixth day His works which He had made' (Genesis 2:2). It is quite foolish to think that the world was created in six days in a space of time at all. Why? Because every period of time is a series of days and nights, and these can only be made such by the movement of the sun as it goes over and under the earth; but the sun is part of heaven, so that time is confessedly more recent than the world. It would therefore be correct to say that the world was not made in time, but that time was formed by means of the world, for it was heaven's movement that was the index of the nature of time."


Allegorical Interpretation 2.7.19
"'And God brought a trance upon Adam, and he fell asleep; and He took one of his sides' (Genesis 2:21) and what follows. These words in their literal sense are of the nature of a myth [mythodes]. For how could anyone admit that a woman, or a human being at all, came into existence out of a man's side?"


Allegorical Interpretation I Part 2.31.97
And the recommendations that he addresses to him are as follows: "Of every tree that is in the Paradise thou mayest freely Eat." He exhorts the soul of man to derive advantage not from one tree alone nor from one single virtue, but from all the virtues; for eating is a symbol of the nourishment of the soul, and the soul is nourished by the reception of good things, and by the doing of praiseworthy actions.


On the Creation 56.154
And these statements appear to me to be dictated by a philosophy which is symbolical rather than strictly accurate. For no trees of life or of knowledge have ever at any previous time appeared upon the earth, nor is it likely that any will appear hereafter. But I rather conceive that Moses was speaking in an allegorical spirit, intending by his paradise to intimate the dominant character of the soul, which is full of innumerable opinions as this figurative paradise was of trees. And by the tree of life he was shadowing out the greatest of the virtues namely, piety towards the gods, by means of which the soul is made immortal; and by the tree which had the knowledge of good an evil, he was intimating that wisdom and moderation, by means of which things, contrary in their nature to one another, are distinguished.


Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Preface 4
I exhort, therefore, my readers to examine this whole undertaking in that view; for thereby it will appear to them, that there is nothing therein disagreeable either to the majesty of God, or to his love to mankind; for all things have here a reference to the nature of the universe; while our legislator [Moses] speaks some things wisely, but enigmatically, and others under a decent allegory, but still explains such things as required a direct explication plainly and expressly. However, those that have a mind to know the reasons of every thing, may find here a very curious philosophical theory, which I now indeed shall wave the explication of; but if God afford me time for it, I will set about writing it after I have finished the present work. I shall now betake myself to the history before me, after I have first mentioned what Moses says of the creation of the world, which I find described in the sacred books after the manner following.

Antiquities of the Jews 1.1.2
Moreover, Moses, after the seventh day was over begins to talk philosophically; and concerning the formation of man, says thus: : That God took dust from the ground, and formed man, and inserted in him a spirit and a soul.
​

 

[AV1611VET]

Mud and clay are both great metaphors for human mortality, I wouldn't get hung up on water content.

And I suppose we should assume the Israelites used instruments of bronze, not brass -- right?

 

[Inan3]

Philo of Alexandria (c 20 BCE - c 50 CE) Allegorical Interpretation 1.2.2
"'And God finished on the sixth day His works which He had made' (Genesis 2:2). It is quite foolish to think that the world was created in six days in a space of time at all. Why? Because every period of time is a series of days and nights, and these can only be made such by the movement of the sun as it goes over and under the earth; but the sun is part of heaven, so that time is confessedly more recent than the world. It would therefore be correct to say that the world was not made in time, but that time was formed by means of the world, for it was heaven's movement that was the index of the nature of time."


Allegorical Interpretation 2.7.19
"'And God brought a trance upon Adam, and he fell asleep; and He took one of his sides' (Genesis 2:21) and what follows. These words in their literal sense are of the nature of a myth [mythodes]. For how could anyone admit that a woman, or a human being at all, came into existence out of a man's side?"


Allegorical Interpretation I Part 2.31.97
And the recommendations that he addresses to him are as follows: "Of every tree that is in the Paradise thou mayest freely Eat." He exhorts the soul of man to derive advantage not from one tree alone nor from one single virtue, but from all the virtues; for eating is a symbol of the nourishment of the soul, and the soul is nourished by the reception of good things, and by the doing of praiseworthy actions.


On the Creation 56.154
And these statements appear to me to be dictated by a philosophy which is symbolical rather than strictly accurate. For no trees of life or of knowledge have ever at any previous time appeared upon the earth, nor is it likely that any will appear hereafter. But I rather conceive that Moses was speaking in an allegorical spirit, intending by his paradise to intimate the dominant character of the soul, which is full of innumerable opinions as this figurative paradise was of trees. And by the tree of life he was shadowing out the greatest of the virtues namely, piety towards the gods, by means of which the soul is made immortal; and by the tree which had the knowledge of good an evil, he was intimating that wisdom and moderation, by means of which things, contrary in their nature to one another, are distinguished.


Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Preface 4
I exhort, therefore, my readers to examine this whole undertaking in that view; for thereby it will appear to them, that there is nothing therein disagreeable either to the majesty of God, or to his love to mankind; for all things have here a reference to the nature of the universe; while our legislator [Moses] speaks some things wisely, but enigmatically, and others under a decent allegory, but still explains such things as required a direct explication plainly and expressly. However, those that have a mind to know the reasons of every thing, may find here a very curious philosophical theory, which I now indeed shall wave the explication of; but if God afford me time for it, I will set about writing it after I have finished the present work. I shall now betake myself to the history before me, after I have first mentioned what Moses says of the creation of the world, which I find described in the sacred books after the manner following.

Antiquities of the Jews 1.1.2
Moreover, Moses, after the seventh day was over begins to talk philosophically; and concerning the formation of man, says thus: : That God took dust from the ground, and formed man, and inserted in him a spirit and a soul.
​

Please show the website where you got these. I am not saying they are not correct but you are supposed to add the website when you copy and paste.

Now as to Josephus' writings above it does not specifically say which "decent allegory" he was referring to. In other words, he does not say that Genesis 1 is an allegory. He does say in "two" sentences prior to the reference you gave above (Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Preface 4) the following:

"Now when Moses was desirous to teach this lesson to his countrymen, he did not begin the establishment of his laws after the same manner that other legislators did; I mean, upon contracts and other rights between one man and another, but by raising their minds upwards to regard God, and His creation of the world; and by persuading them, that we men are the most excellent of the creatures of God upon earth. " http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/antiquities-jews/preface/chapter-1.html?p=2

This would agree with Genesis 1:26 that man was made in the image and likeness of God, and would disqualify that man EVOLVED from OTHER creatures.

 

[Assyrian]

And I suppose we should assume the Israelites used instruments of bronze, not brass -- right?

What has this got to do with the metaphor of being made from dust or clay?

 

[Assyrian]

Please show the website where you got these.

I have Philo and Josephus as e-sword modules, but you could look up Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers of grab a chunk of text and google it.

 

[Inan3]

I have Philo and Josephus as e-sword modules, but you could look up Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers of grab a chunk of text and google it.

Please note that I edited my last post to you regarding the above info. Thank you for your reference.

 

[Assyrian]

I'll get back to you on it.

 

[AV1611VET]

What has this got to do with the metaphor of being made from dust or clay?

Metaphor?

I think not.