Could There Be a Partial Soul Sleep?

ewq1938 · Mar 10, 2016

Jason0047 said:
When I say all of them, I am referring to the different Rapture positions (i.e. Pre-Trib, Mid Trib, Pre Wrath, and Post Trib).

...

I was raised pre-trib but when I was an adult and had been studying scripture seriously, I explored all of those as well and found that only post-trib is scripturally supported.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

ewq1938 said:
I was raised pre-trib but when I was an adult and had been studying scripture seriously, I explored all of those as well and found that only post-trib is scripturally supported.

I was Pre-Trib initially, and was Pre-Wrath for a very short time, and then came full circle back to the Pre-Trib position based on the heavey weight of BIblical evidence. I also examined the Mid Trib and Post Trib views and I found to be at conflict with Scripture and the extensive chronology I created for Revelation.

....

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

Pre-Trib Rapture:

Short Version:

There are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV
So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth

• Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

• John 14:3 -
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints.

• Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.

• Revelation 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage

• Matthew 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

But at the second coming to earth, He is RETURNING from a wedding.

• Luke 12:36
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

....

ewq1938 · Mar 11, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Pre-Trib Rapture:

Short Version:

There are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV
So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

The verse doesn't say that.

Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth

• Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

That's the same event. Coming the second time is the basis for the phrase "the second coming".

At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

• John 14:3 -
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints.

• Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.

• Revelation 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Same thing. Jesus returns with the resurrected dead saints and and meets with the raptured living saints....it's all the same timeframe.

At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage

• Matthew 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

But at the second coming to earth, He is RETURNING from a wedding.

• Luke 12:36
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

That's an example from a parable lol The marriage is symbolic and it simply is related to people being judged to eternal life due to their faith in Christ.

No offense but all pre-trib arguments are a bit silly, and simplistic misinterpretations...

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

The Rapture:
(The 1st Rapture or Translation of the Saints):

Description of the Rapture:

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

• 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Clues Concerning the Rapture:

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

• Isaiah 26:20 NLT

Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Promise of the Rapture:
(A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):

• 1 Thessalonians 1:10

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

• 1 Thessalonians 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Admonishes about being ready for the Rapture:
(In order to miss out on the 7 Year Tribulation):

• Luke 21:34-36

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

• Revelation 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

....

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

The Second Coming of Christ:
(The Lord Appears in the Clouds Coming in Great Power & Glory):

• Revelation 16:15

The Sixth Vial (Part 3):

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

• Revelation 1:7 NIV

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.

• Matthew 24:27

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

• Mark 13:26

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

• Luke 17:24

For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

• Luke 21:27

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

• Isaiah 26:21 NLT

Look! The LORD is coming from heaven to punish the people of the earth for their sins.

• Psalm 96:13 NKJV

For He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness.

• Matthew 24:30

And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn.

• Revelation 19:11-13 and Revelation 19:15-16

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

• 1 Timothy 6:14 NLT and 1 Timothy 6:15 NKJV

Our Lord Jesus Christ comes again...
He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Certain Saints in Heaven Are Made Ready For The Marriage Supper of The Lamb:

• Revelation 19:6-8 HCSB and Revelation 19:9 NIV

Then I heard something like the voice of a vast multitude, like the sound of cascading waters, and like the rumbling of loud thunder, saying:

"Hallelujah, because our Lord God, the Almighty, has begun to reign! Let us be glad, rejoice, and give Him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself. She was given fine linen to wear, bright and pure. For the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints."

Then the angel said to me,

“Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’”

The Lord Gathers His Elect For the Upcoming Battle:
(The Call to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb):
(The 2nd Rapture or Translation of the Saints):
(And The End of the Surviving Tribulation Saint's 1,335 Day of Testing):

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Daniel 12:12 ISV and Daniel 12:12 NIV

Blessed is the one who perseveres...and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

• Revelation 14:16

And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

• Matthew 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

• Mark 13:27

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

• Luke 17:34-37

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

And they answered and said unto him,

"Where, Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

• Matthew 24:28

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

• Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:14

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying

"To all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto thesupper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

• Jude 1:14

Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

• Isaiah 31:4 NLT

The LORD of Heaven’s Armies will come down.

• Isaiah 26:21 NLT

The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed. They will be brought out for all to see.

...

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

What is another bread crumb or clue that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is true? Well, when we want to verify a truth within God's Word, we know that the Bible testifies of itself by the fact that it repeats the same message or idea over and over thru out the whole of Scripture.

So one came make the parallel that...

1. The Church is sent out to spread the Gospel (Revelation 1)
2. Some in the Church are warned of His Return & Judgment (Revelation 2-3)
3. Rapture of Faithful Church (Revelation 4)
4. Judgment of Daniel's 70th Week Begins that will bring the End (Revelation 6)

In fact, the same parallel can be made with Noah and the Flood, too.

For there were 3 groups of people facing the Judgment of the Flood:

1. Those that perished in the Global Flood.
2. Those that were preserved thru the time of the Global Flood.
3. Those that were removed prior to the Global Flood.

For Enoch was translated before the Flood, right?
And Noah and his family went thru the Judgment of the Flood but were protected by God, right? Sort of like the 144,000 Jewish Christians who will be protected or sealed by God thru the tribulation.

So a Pre-Trib Rapture proves to be Biblical and true not only in straight forward teaching but by paralleling the beginning and ending stories within the Bible, too.

...

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

Now, the problem with not holding to a Pre-Trib Rapture or not holding to a Rapture of any kind (With a reliance upon just a Second Coming or some other idea) is that Jesus relates a person to someone who thinks the Lord is coming later (rather than at any moment) with that of an evil servant.

"If that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;" ~(Matthew 24:48-49)

So if you are against the Pre-Trib Rapture, then the Lord is not coming now or at any moment but He is delaying His coming to a time you think it says or worse yet, He is not coming at all.

For Matthew continues to say,

"The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder" ~ (Matthew 24:50-51a)

In other words, this passage is saying that the Lord will come in a day or hour when you will not looking for Him. For the moment you ignore His return that could happen at any moment or if you pinpoint a certain period of time of His return and look for Him in that time frame is a direct violation of this verse and others that warn us to be ready at any moment.

In fact, Jesus Christ warned us that if a church does not repent of it's wickedness, it will go thru the great tribulation...

"And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22)

How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?

Paul had written to Titus and said this to him in his letter...

• Titus 2:13

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.

Also, Paul used the words "Last Trump" in Corinthians as a reference to the Jewish "Last Trumpet" of the Feast of Trumpets. The Corinthians at that time would have had no knowledge of John's written Revelation about the Last Trumpet Judgment because it was not written yet. So Paul mentioned a name to something that the Corinthians would have already been familiar with.

...

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

John's Revelation was not written yet when Paul spoke to the Corinthians; And Paul said he would rather speak five words with the understanding than five thousand words without the understanding. So the Corinthians would have to know what Paul was talking about. The reference to the "Last Trump" is a Jewish reference. For...

The Feast of Trumpets is called the Last Trump (For there are three shofarim or horns):

#1. The first trump is Pentecost,
#2. The last trump is the Feast of Trumpets,
#3. The great trump is the Day of Atonement.

This is Jewish teaching (of which Paul would have known about).

Anyways, here are some differences between the two trumpets.

The trumpet of the church age is called the "trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The trumpet of Revelation is the trumpet of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15).

The trumpet of the church age is singular. There is no mention of a series of trumpets. The trumpet of Revelation is the seventh of seven. The phrase, last trump, has a different significance.

In 1 Thessalonians 4, the trumpets calls the dead to life. The seventh trumpet of Revelation occurs after a resurrection occurs (Revelation 11:12).

The trumpet of the church age comes as a blessing. The trumpet of Revelation comes with judgment and is called the third woe (Revelation 11:14).

The trump of the church age sounds in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52). The seventh trumpet of Revelation sounds for "days" (Revelation 10:7 HCSB)

...

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

~ PLEASE DO NOT MISS THIS ~

Revelation 6:17 KJV begins the Wrath and Revelation 15:1 KJV tells us that the vials or bowl judgments (Which are after the Trumpet Judgments) are the seven last plagues & the return of Christ which concludes the wrath of God.

And 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV says we are not appointed unto wrath.

....

2 know him · Mar 11, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I don't just accept something in the Bible just because the church says it is true. Granted, there are many things I do accept, like the Trinity and that the Earth was created in six literal 24 hour days. However, I strive to honor the Word of God in what it plainly says. I also try to make sense out of things. Granted, I realize there are some things you cannot explain like the miracles of God. While many have probably have said the same thing, tradition is hard to break. It is not easy to go against the grain and or to plow new ground.

I believe in a literal hell. The story of Lazarus and the Richman cannot be anything but a true narrative. For Jesus did not tell stories that were not based in reality. All his parables were set in the real world. Most churches teach Eternal Concious Torment or that the wicked will burn in hell and also burn for all eternity in the Lake of Fire (Which is overkill and goes way beyond what the crime actually calls for).

However, after close examination of the Scriptures, I believe that the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Hell is also a real place but nobody is tortured in any flames there (like the popular movies and books of today like to promote). For Lazarus could not have carried on a normal conversation with anyone if he was being engulfed in flames. People normally cannot talk to you without screaming if they are being held down in a fire. This is important to understand because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. His parables). Anyways, the belief that there is a literal hell and the wicked will perish in the Lake of Fire is called "Dualistic Conditionalism." This is what I believe the Scriptures plainly teach.

Lately, God has been calling it upon my heart to answer the question as to the length of time people spend consciously in Hell. How can someone who only sinned for a couple of years be incarcerated for thousands of years in a horrible place? I said to myself that time must operate differently there. But there is no evidence of Scripture for this. However, one possiblity that would resolve the problem of men being punished beyond the crimes they committed in hell would be the topic of "soul sleep." But there are just too many passages that show how others are conscious in the after-life. Yet, when I read how Jesus was laughed at when he said that the girl was sleeping and not dead, I find that a metaphorical interpretation to be unsettling. Yet, I do not agree with Soul Sleep's proponents and how they use certain verses in the Psalms as if it was a declaration of soul sleep, either (Like saying we do not have thoughts after death). Such verses are clearly speaking to make a metaphorical point and it is not one that speaks of the after-life per say. So for now, I am considering a partial soul sleep as being a possibilty. It makes sense. But I need to pray about it a lot and search the Scriptures for a long while before even considering such a thing as being remotely true.

So what soul sleep passages do you think would convince me?

....

Who cares if there is or isn't: once you wake up you won't remember it.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

2 know him said:
Who cares if there is or isn't: once you wake up you won't remember it.

Well, for one, if something is in the Word of God, you should want to care about it because we live by speaking every word of God. God's Word should be a joy for you to discuss. It should be like treasure to you in discovering it's truths if you are truly abiding in Christ and His Word. Studying God's Word should excite you no matter the topic. For all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable to lead the man of God into every perfect good work.

Second, a partial soul sleep would not only involve the transition from one world to the next, but it also could possibly explain to us that wicked men who lived thousands years ago may not have been aware the whole time that they were in the place of Torment in Sheol (i.e. Hades or Hell). This means that their punishment was not unfair compared to those who would be arriving today because they may not have been conscious the whole time. This is why I care. For it seeks to look to how God is fair and good in His Judgments.

...

2 know him · Mar 11, 2016

To your first paragraph Jesus stated:
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The Pharisees intellectualised their beliefs. Jesus' teachings are about the practice of his teachings. Hypocrisy deals with how a person's works contradict their words focus on living right before God not intellectualising your beliefs.

Before words are spoken proclaiming the law, there is a law that exists in men and it testifies to men of right and wrong. May I suggest it is this inner law that Jesus verbalises into his words and whether or not they are spoken: the laws still are in effect.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

2 know him said:
To your first paragraph Jesus stated:
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus was talking about how the Old Testament Scripture testifies of Him and how they were not getting how they point to Him. Jesus was not talking to believers in Christ who strive to obey the words of Jesus and His followers.

Besides, Jesus says,

"the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
(John 6:63).

Jesus also says,

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
(Matthew 4:4).

2 know him said:
The Pharisees intellectualised their beliefs. Jesus' teachings are about the practice of his teachings. Hypocrisy deals with how a person's works contradict their words focus on living right before God not intellectualising your beliefs.

Before words are spoken proclaiming the law, there is a law that exists in men and it testifies to men of right and wrong. May I suggest it is this inner law that Jesus verbalises into his words and whether or not they are spoken: the laws still are in effect.

Yes, we can only have an assurance in knowing Him if we keep His commandments. This is what 1 John 2:3-6 says.

3 "And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: by this we know that we are in him.
6 He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
(1 John 2:3-6).

...

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

I meant to say that Jesus was talking to the Jews (Who were refusing to accept Him as His Messiah) and not Christians in the passage that is referring to how the Scriptures testify of Him.

...

Bible Highlighter · Mar 11, 2016

There is a glitch in this thread. I cannot edit any new posts.

tickingclocker · Apr 7, 2016

Like napping? I doubt it.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 7, 2016

tickingclocker said:
Like napping? I doubt it.

Well, a "Partial Soul Sleep" is not like something that I decided to come up with one day because I was bored. There is a logical and good reason for it and there are verses that do suggest such a possiblity. Please read the thread.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

...

Could There Be a Partial Soul Sleep?

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Newbie

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Newbie

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency