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How is it obvious?Which morals exactly do you mean? The ones where women were suppressed? Were black people were treated as second class citizens?
Don't bother to answer. It's obvious you mean sex. It's always about sex.
Do you think the relative freefall of morality that started around the 1960s could have been avoided? How in what kind of way?
I also don't believe we should go back to before the 1960s in all ways, but I believe the traditionalists and conservatives have a point sometimes.
Is this sarcasm? Just curious.Morals are doing just fine.
Became more popular. Weed and acid were around before, acid being used by both military and psychiatry. 70 or so years later both are being used medicinally again. Alcohol remains safe in the hearts of America as the profitable drug of choice.Drugs came into America via the Vietnam war. This is where innocence started to diminish.
Yeah, it's pretty easy to avoid divorce if you bypass the whole marriage thing. I feel like I'm losing my mind, reading some of these comments. My wife has, for the last 10 years, worked in the legal department of a county children and youth services department. Every (reported) ugly thing that happens to a child comes across her desk in all of its gory detail. Let me assure you that unless this county is a glaring anomaly, there is definitely a major problem. More could be said here, but my brain hurts.What fallen morality? Treatment of minorities is better. Violent crime is down. Divorce is down (so are marriage rates). Interracial marriage is accepted by the vast majority. What's the problem?
Let me remind you that 100 years ago her office wouldn't have existed. Of course things aren't perfect. But at least now these kinds of things are recognized and we're trying to deal with them.Yeah, it's pretty easy to avoid divorce if you bypass the whole marriage thing. I feel like I'm losing my mind, reading some of these comments. My wife has, for the last 10 years, worked in the legal department of a county children and youth services department. Every (reported) ugly thing that happens to a child comes across her desk in all of its gory detail. Let me assure you that unless this county is a glaring anomaly, there is definitely a major problem. More could be said here, but my brain hurts.
And, without addressing each (logically fallacious) hastily-generalized item, I could suggest that perhaps atheism-at-large could reconsider the folly of attributing these problems to everyone but themselves and perpetuating the myth (at least to themselves) that they are, in lockstep fashion, above human flaws and evils.I agree that Christian morality has declined over the last several decades - but not in the way Christians imagine it. As a group (there are exceptions) Christian moral standards, compared to those of society in general, leave a lot to be desired.
Poor Christian behaviour includes:
Perhaps Christianity should put it's own house in order?
- Employment discrimination based on gender
- Discrimination based on sexual orientation
- Demanding the right to refuse service to certain groups (a variant on sexual orientation discrimination)
- Demanding the right to have its Creation Myth taught as science
- Demanding (and getting) the right to not report child abuse
- A belief that it is sometimes above the law
- Openly practising misogyny
- Vilifying homosexuals
- Expecting a special exemption from taxation
- Insulting other religions
- Science denial
OB
Didn't have to worry about the kids back then. They were off the streets and out of harm's way, working in factories and fields.Let me remind you that 100 years ago her office wouldn't have existed. Of course things aren't perfect. But at least now these kinds of things are recognized and we're trying to deal with them.
I agree that Christian morality has declined over the last several decades - but not in the way Christians imagine it. As a group (there are exceptions) Christian moral standards, compared to those of society in general, leave a lot to be desired.
Poor Christian behaviour includes:
Perhaps Christianity should put it's own house in order?
- Employment discrimination based on gender
- Discrimination based on sexual orientation
- Demanding the right to refuse service to certain groups (a variant on sexual orientation discrimination)
- Demanding the right to have its Creation Myth taught as science
- Demanding (and getting) the right to not report child abuse
- A belief that it is sometimes above the law
- Openly practising misogyny
- Vilifying homosexuals
- Expecting a special exemption from taxation
- Insulting other religions
- Science denial
OB
Well, if the church had any standards, we might use those.The church ought to allow herself to be judged morally by the standards of the world?
My opinion > if the conservative church culture thing worked, morals would not have gone downhill. Why would this be, that church culture did not work? Possibly, the parents were not deeply strong and satisfied in living God's love; and so they were outwardly conforming and getting along socially, but not deeply sharing with God. And so, when younger ones tried to do the outward cultural things, they discovered how they were not being deeply satisfied and they were not deeply strong against worry and unforgiveness and getting hurt in arguing and complaining. So, they looked elsewhere to get real and deep satisfaction.If immoral people knew about that, why couldn't moral people? Why do only immoral people get to be in those fields? That's another crazy thing I think isn't fair.
I have a theory that it's because we were too willing to turn the other cheek and be non-agressive.
What fallen morality? Treatment of minorities is better. Violent crime is down. Divorce is down (so are marriage rates). Interracial marriage is accepted by the vast majority. What's the problem?
Aren't we lucky? What a patronizing tone you wield. Let me remind you that 100 years ago, it was the church that labored hardest for the widows and the fatherless. Drug-addicted babies from childbirth out-of-wedlock had not yet become the golden standard of society.Let me remind you that 100 years ago her office wouldn't have existed.
I can't even comment on this one; perhaps your communications device has been commandeered by a secular humanist. If that is the case, please accept my apologies for misquoting you.Of course things aren't perfect.
Yes, of course, Big Brother has come to the rescue. Don't let the paved roads and the coffee shops with free wi-fi fool you, for:But at least now these kinds of things are recognized and we're trying to deal with them.
The church ought to allow herself to be judged morally by the standards of the world?
Hasty? Not really. I started a discussion on this very topic a few weeks ago.And, without addressing each (logically fallacious) hastily-generalized item,
This isn't an atheist issue. We have two moral systems clashing ; one belonging to Christianity and the other owned by the broader society. By society's moral standards Christianity sometimes behaves badly.I could suggest that perhaps atheism-at-large could reconsider the folly of attributing these problems to everyone but themselves and perpetuating the myth (at least to themselves) that they are, in lockstep fashion, above human flaws and evils.
Society's standards change. Morals do not.It's not a question of allow - the Church is being judged by society's standards whether you like it or not.
The Church doesn't own the patent on morality. There are other moral standards apart from those specific to Christianity.
OB
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