• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Could most modern translations be in error?

Steven Wood

Not my will but Thy will be done
Jul 17, 2015
392
153
47
Arkansas, United States
✟18,276.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I have to disagree. Not just because I don't agree that its just the universalists that say that but also because its said to turn a Godly command into an unGodly one. I believe that the new translations are used to twist the scripture into wickedness told under the guise of it being God's infallible word so people will not only accept it but will never know what God really commanded us to do, therefor becoming one of the false Christians that Jesus said he never knew. Also there are some translations that actually just remove verses. For example a verse in Acts I believe. I cant remember the chapter but i know that some translations skip blatantly from verse 25 to verse 27. The verse they skip was when a disciple explains to a eunuch how to be baptized, the part where He says that you need to believe Jesus is the son of God is omitted. I
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,261
1,768
The land of OZ
✟345,480.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
That was Acts 8:38. Only the KJV had the part about the Eunuch saying that. KJV had plenty of errors because it "was based upon a Greek text which was marred by mistakes, containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying. It was essentially the Greek text of the New Testament as edited by Beza, 1589, who closely follow that published by Erasmus, 1516-1535, which was based upon a few medieval manuscripts." That quote came from the PREFACE of my hardbound RSV bible. It was a quote from one of the translators explaining why they were coming up with a new translation subsequent to the Authorized Standard Version.

EDIT; I made a date error correction above from 15899 to 1589.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Steven Wood

Not my will but Thy will be done
Jul 17, 2015
392
153
47
Arkansas, United States
✟18,276.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I have to disagree. The kjv was put together by 47 different scholars and like the old testament. many different books from many languages was given them, it all had to relate as a direct effect concerning God and his people, thats why so many books many called the apocryphal texts were left out. All of the scholars had to agree, i.e there translations had to be the same. And the entire KJV bible consisted of not only greek which was only the new testament but also Hebraic, Paleo-Hebraic, Aramaic, and Chaldean.It is true that Not all of the manuscripts were from jewish writers, but the all concerned the Hebrew God and came from a first hand account of some fashion.It may be true about that verse being only in the KJV but in my opinion that is the most important need for a true baptism and if you take Jesus out of anything it is a twisted, Anti-Christian teaching, and not from God
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,261
1,768
The land of OZ
✟345,480.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Your first post left me wondering if you were a 'KJV only' guy, this posts seems to push you more in that direction. Are you?

You are certainly entitled to 'your opinion' here just like everyone else which we present documentation which encounters a "kicking against the goad", even as you are doing here IMO. The common theme is we don't have good sources. I just presented statements from those 'chosen one' qualified to be on the committees which translate the 'bibles' like those here want to hold up...as befits the definition of 'blibliolotry', as far as I'm concerned. So you've offered 'your opinion' I substantiated mine with a BIBLE's very own source reference proving there isn't a perfect bible out there. And if I was to quote the 'several other pages' in this bible I'm holding in my hands, you would probably be in much more disagreement. All I can say is we differ in our opinions.

It may be true about that verse being only in the KJV but in my opinion that is the most important need for a true baptism and if you take Jesus out of anything it is a twisted, Anti-Christian teaching, and not from God

It might be good to be a Berean and study to see if you can say "IT IS TRUE!" rather than "IT may be true". Can you at least give a scripture proving one has to believe 'that' which you say is essential for baptism? Then we might have a bit more to deal with "as iron sharpens iron".

It is truly funny, that I can quote the very scholars who write bibles, and share their own admission as to the errors that they know exist, while those here who don't have any more qualification than that of an arm chair theologian (me included) who want to defy someone like I just quoted from my bible's preface.
 
Upvote 0

Steven Wood

Not my will but Thy will be done
Jul 17, 2015
392
153
47
Arkansas, United States
✟18,276.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I'm not an entirely KJV only guy, I've noticed many more mistranslations in the niv and one or 2 other translations, even the new kings james when using my concordance. I will be the first to say that I have not read them all so I can't say with certainty that they all have an Anti-Christian agenda. You say I only give my opinion but as you trust the makers of your bible and their commentary, I trust the commentators 've read and my "opinions" are just as substantiated as yours, whether you have a Bible in your hand or not. I respect your opinion and am not dead set on mine, thinking I am the end all be all source for the truth. I just live by the precept that everyone can have their own opinion and dis agree with me, but I wont change what I've come to learn until there is real proof that I may be wrong. Here is a question for you? If you believe these scholars who I imagine say they are believers, then isn't the statement that the bible has errors a direct contradiction to their belief? If the Bible is supposed to be the infallible word of God and it is that word that guides us, Isn't saying that it has errors actually saying that God is fallible and leaves us to make our on conclusions as to who he is and what he wants? Going a step further, Isn't the statement saying that if God's living word, something directly inspired by him can be wrong than God can be wrong? And if that were possible would anything he made exist? The bible says that Jesus is the word. If his word is wrong than the laws he set to hold things together would have no power because the are all based on truth. with the chance to be wrong there is no finite truth which would mean nothing he spoke into creation would exist
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I want to be helpful to discussion. That is why I recommended you pick a few ECF sources, quote them, provide the translated work and we can all move on from there.

So in the spirit of wanting an honest dialogue you should dispense with the "the majority of Christians believed in the Doctrine of Apokatastasis in the early church" would be a good start. Yes there were a few prominent church fathers one deemed a heretic in many of his writings which is Origen. Probably your 'champion' would be St. Gregory of Nyssa. Then the more obscure Theodore of Mopsuestia. Theodore did clearly write in support of universalism. However, his writings also supported Pelagianism and Nestorianism.

Those are the three which clearly advocated UR. Other than Gregory of Nyssa, the other two had other heretical doctrines promoted. Everyone knows about Origen, Theodore? Not so much.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
65
USA
✟106,673.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Augustine wrote:
It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express literal truth.
— Augustine, Enchiridion, sec. 112.

When Augustine described the Universalists as “indeed very many” (immo quam plurimi), what he meant is that they were a “vast majority” (Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11). That is what the Latin word plurimi, from the adjective plurimus, implies. And though Augustine himself didn’t affirm this doctrine (although he did in the beginning [Ibid.].), he at least recognized that Universalism, or the “theory of apokatastasis,” was quite an influential doctrine in his day and the centuries that preceded him.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What the quote does not do is qualify the 'many.' Many bishops in the East? Many from the Origen school? All of Christendom? There were very many indeed who followed Arius at one point too. But we find out later not so many of the bishops who condemned his works. That's what I was getting at. Because if it were 'very many' as in the majority of bishops and theologians then Apocatastasis would have become 'orthodox' doctrine in the church.

Also, given Origen told his followers and other theologians of his era that the lost and even the flock should continue to be taught eternal punishment (to keep them in fear) and that only those who were more enlightened should be informed of Apocatastasis. Origen was quite adept at teaching one thing to his students and paying lip service to his superiors.

The 'very many' could also refer to the Alexandrian school. It was a hotbed of heresies including Origen and Arius.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,199
Vancouver
✟332,633.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private

If one wishes to be "helpful" they should cease with the mudslinging. Likewise they should not misrepresent other's views as you have done with the above quote. Who are you quoting? That's not my position, yet you have attributed it to me as if it is.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,199
Vancouver
✟332,633.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private

What makes you think a majority opinion by "bishops and theologians" will result in a doctrine being " 'orthodox' doctrine in the church"? If one man, the Pope, affirms a doctrine, does that make it "orthodoxy"? Can such "orthodoxy" be in opposition to Scripture? Yes. Does a vote of 51% in favor of a doctrine make it "orthodoxy" or true to the Scriptures? No. If the 51% became a minority 49%, would that change the "orthodox" doctrine & make it suddenly un-orthodox? Or unscriptural? Could the Christen-dum of the dark & middle ages (600-1600 AD +) of Inquisitions, illiteracy, Crusades, ignorance, burning opposers to death, destroying their writings, ruling & controlling others with the edge of a bloody sword & many other atrocities have had any - or much - doctrinal error? Or even been full of doctrines of demons? Yes.


If that were true, one has to wonder how many others who are thought to have taught endless punishment really didn't believe in it. But you've provided nothing to back up your comments.

The 'very many' could also refer to the Alexandrian school. It was a hotbed of heresies including Origen and Arius.

That looks like wild speculation. Do you have any evidence to back it up.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
65
USA
✟106,673.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why the need for qualification? I'm not the least familiar with Latin so I rely on Ramelli's interpretation. Your attempt to minimize "many" to "some" is obfuscation.
 
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟64,539.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Nothing you posted refutes the view of the OP that rendering terms such as olam & aion & aionion as "eternal" & "forever" in
This statement is a non-sequitur
Nothing I have posted refutes the idea that we are all brains in a vat being manipulated by aliens either.

I have been clear that you are making a common exegetical fallacy known as the word-study fallacy.

I am NOT TRYING TO REFUTE YOUR POST QUA LEXICAL RANGE OF AION. All words have lexical ranges.

Point of exegesis is to gain meaning and sort out the proper definition given the context and other usage.

I have already (twice at least) said that your definitional meaning and inference IS A LIVE INFERENCE!!!!!

Given the amount of feedback I have given on this issue and your writing capability, I presume you are educated enough to comprehend what I'm saying. Just not well-mannered enough not to misrepresent it.

Continued propaganda rather than reasoned discussion has earned you the coveted, "Ignored" status, as in the phrase, "He was determined to remain IGNORant."
 
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟64,539.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
And that is what is going on and not just Universalism.
We do see this trend all the way back into the mid-nineteenth century in Germany. All of the liberal schools that arose here in the U.S. in the 1960s, 70s and 80s became islands of eisegesis.

For more on this approach see anything from John Dominic Crossan, Robert Funk, Shelby Spong, or 90% of theology students coming out of the Ivy League Seminaries even up until today.

Bart Ehrman from Princeton. He is not a UNC Distinguished professor and he teaches that Jesus became God. He is an atheist.
 
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why the need for qualification? I'm not the least familiar with Latin so I rely on Ramelli's interpretation. Your attempt to minimize "many" to "some" is obfuscation.
Considering the doctrine was condemned, and it would take 'a great many' to do that, leads to other plausible conclusions.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟199,236.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That looks like wild speculation. Do you have any evidence to back it up.
The doctrine was condemned. If the 'great many' were bishops then the church catholic would have accepted Origen's doctrine.
 
Reactions: Uber Genius
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,199
Vancouver
✟332,633.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private

You've demonstrated no "exegetical fallacy" in anything i've posted. You also ignored the rest of my post. Did you not read beyond the first partial sentence:



Getting some background on early Church Father's writings doesn't support the thesis that Theology of hell as everlasting is a corruption of later teaching or corrupted texts.

Nothing you posted refutes the view of the OP that rendering terms such as olam & aion & aionion as "eternal" & "forever" in eschatological contexts re punishment of the wicked is misleading & deceptive, because it injects the theological bias of the translators into the text, thereby changing God's written words.

The short list of alleged church father quotes you posted perpetuate the same mis-translations that are at issue in the OP. You can't legitimately argue against the OP by posting the same mistranslations that occur in your extrabiblical sources. Error doesn't support the truth of error, which in this case would be the same error, both in the so-called Bible translations (better, opinions) & in the alleged, but mistranslated, church fathers' quotes you posted.

If you want to prove any of those quotes support the author being pro endless torments or anti universalism, you'll need to provide the Greek text of the key words to show that they are not the Greek words that are in question as per the OP. Or, if the ancient text is in Latin, or another ancient lingo, provide evidence that the key words in that lingo support your claim.

As Roman Catholic Patristic scholar Illaria Ramelli said:

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/...of-apokatastasis-the-reviews-start-coming-in/
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟64,539.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Why the need for qualification? I'm not the least familiar with Latin so I rely on Ramelli's interpretation. Your attempt to minimize "many" to "some" is obfuscation.
Because he is right.

Definition of many
more play \ˈmȯr\; most play \ˈmōst\
1: consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number
  • worked for manyyears

  • the many advantages of an education
2: being one of a large but indefinite number
  • many a man

  • many another student

So ten of one hundred could be "Many"

Further as I have pointed out elsewhere the ante-Nicene church fathers, especially those closest to the completion of the NT were ECT.

Finally, this is exactly the question and to misrepresent the need for clarification as "obfuscation," is nothing but an attempt to win the argument through ad hominem.

That's what the universalists need, more propaganda.
 
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟64,539.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
The doctrine was condemned. If the 'great many' were bishops then the church catholic would have accepted Origen's doctrine.
"At the root of these controversies is Origen’s use of the Bible. Neo-Platonism taught that physical objects acted as symbols of spiritual reality and so contained a double meaning. Likewise, Origen and many other Christians (like Augustine) believed the Scriptures had a double meaning; the spiritual significance, while escaping the notice of most people, could be contemplated by the perfected Christian. But Origen’s interpretations pushed the boundaries of orthodoxy."

"He believed, for instance, in the pre-existence of souls and that eventually everyone, including the Devil, would be saved. In addition, he described the Trinity as a hierarchy, not as an equality of Father, Son, and Spirit." Christianity Today Article entitled: Origen: Model or Heretic

Even if it weren't condemned, it would fail to explain the majority of Biblical data. Even if every Church Father and every pope had lauded universalism as true, it would do nothing to improve the inability to explain the enormity of contextual issues that have been brought up on this thread to date.

But your point stands as Origen was condemned. Although not all of his view were, or should be.

His purgation theory was adopted by many and is still a centerpiece of Catholic theology.
 
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,199
Vancouver
✟332,633.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The doctrine was condemned. If the 'great many' were bishops then the church catholic would have accepted Origen's doctrine.

Are you Roman Catholic? Was it "condemned"? When? By who?

"As for where they came from, the evidence suggests they were prepared beforehand by the vicious and insidiously stupid Emperor Justinian, who liked to play theologian, who saw the Church as a pillar of imperial unity, and who took implacable umbrage at dissident theologies...."

"East or West, all Christians are burdened with the absurdities of Christian imperial history. But any conception of orthodoxy that obliges one to grant the title of “saint” to a murderous thug like Justinian while denying it to a man as holy as Origen is obviously—indeed ludicrously—self-refuting. And one does not defend tradition well by making it appear not only atrociously unjust, but utterly ridiculous."

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen

BTW, none of the early church creeds condemned universalism. Not till at least about 5 centuries after Christ was born. Then came the dark ages.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0