Could most modern translations be in error?

ClementofA · Oct 4, 2018

Der Alter said:
In the context of the other ECF I quoted I doubt you can make a convincing case that Polycarp meant "age long" or some such nonsense. I have found it to be very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond. Had you done so you might have noticed that I didn't quote passages simply because they contained the word "eternal" but chose passages where "eternal" was reinforced by other adjectives. For example,

Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).

Tertullian does not say anyone's punishment will be "unending", but the fire is "unending" and "divine", "a supply of incorruptibility".

Are you aware of a single English Bible translation that ever uses the word "unending" regarding punishment of any sinners?

What is the original language word Tertullian used that corresponds to the word "unending"? Did Jesus use it? Does Scripture ever use it of the punishment of the wicked? If not, why not?

Wouldn't the word for "unending" have been relatively unambiguous as compared to AION or AIONION (eon or eonian) punishment?

If aionion were understood to mean eternal, why didn't Tertullian just say aionion punishment? Why did he feel the need to describe the fire with other words, namely "equally perpetual and unending"?

Is something "perpetual" necessarily "unending"? Did Tertullian understand the basic meaning of aionion to be "perpetual" & of indefinite duration? If "perpetual" meant "unending", why add "and unending"?

"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

“What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.” [De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX, Tertullian] Quotes About Hell Fire from Christian Leaders

Der Alte · Oct 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
Tertullian does not say anyone's punishment will be "unending", but the fire is "unending" and "divine", "a source of incorruptibility".
...

Same old irrelevant copy/paste spam. Even when I highlight relevant words you still can't understand it.

Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"(Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13)

The reward for the godless is a fire equally perpetual and unending.
The godless etc. will be punished in fire ... unending, and they shall have ... a supply of incorruptibility. The godless have fire unending and incorruptibility!
Since the godless are incorruptible that makes the punishment "unending!" Can you understand this now or do I need to repeat it a few more times?

ClementofA · Oct 4, 2018

Der Alter said:
Same old irrelevant copy/paste spam. Even when I highlight relevant words you still can't understand it.

Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"(Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13)
The reward for the godless is a fire equally perpetual and unending.
The godless etc. will be punished in fire ... unending, and they shall have ... a supply of incorruptibility. The godless have fire unending and incorruptibility!
Since the godless are incorruptible that makes the punishment "unending!" Can you understand this now or do I need to repeat it a few more times?

Again notice that it is the fire that is described as unending, not the punishment. They will be "punished in fire...unending". What it doesn't say is the "unending punishment in fire". Do you see the difference?

Tertullian does not say anyone's punishment will be "unending", but the fire is "unending" and "divine", "a source of incorruptibility". How can a fire be "divine" and "a supply of incorruptibility", unless that fire is God Himself?

Der Alte · Oct 6, 2018

ClementofA said:
Again notice that it is the fire that is described as unending, not the punishment. They will be "punished in fire...unending". What it doesn't say is the "unending punishment in fire". Do you see the difference?
Tertullian does not say anyone's punishment will be "unending", but the fire is "unending" and "divine", "a source of incorruptibility". How can a fire be "divine" and "a supply of incorruptibility", unless that fire is God Himself?

There is no difference. You are ignoring what I post and repeating the same specious argument over and over. As I explained Tertullian he certainly said. The reward for the godless is a fire equally perpetual and unending.
The godless etc. will be punished in fire ... unending, and they shall have ... a supply of incorruptibility. The godless have fire unending and incorruptibility!
Since the godless are incorruptible that makes the punishment "unending!" Can you understand this now or do I need to repeat it a few more times?
.....Your argument about "divine" it irrelevant unless you translate the original word that Tertullian used. And while you are fumbling around with that, Origen used the term divine fire .

Origen De Principiis. Book II. Chap. V.
6. To all the saints, finally, some warmth from the Word of God must be supposed to have passed; and in this soul the divine fire itself must be believed to have rested, from which some warmth may have passed to others.

ClementofA · Oct 6, 2018

Der Alter said:
There is no difference. You are ignoring what I post and repeating the same specious argument over and over. As I explained Tertullian he certainly said. The reward for the godless is a fire equally perpetual and unending.
The godless etc. will be punished in fire ... unending, and they shall have ... a supply of incorruptibility. The godless have fire unending and incorruptibility!
Since the godless are incorruptible that makes the punishment "unending!" Can you understand this now or do I need to repeat it a few more times?
.....Your argument about "divine" it irrelevant unless you translate the original word that Tertullian used. And while you are fumbling around with that, Origen used the term divine fire .

Origen De Principiis. Book II. Chap. V.
6. To all the saints, finally, some warmth from the Word of God must be supposed to have passed; and in this soul the divine fire itself must be believed to have rested, from which some warmth may have passed to others.

"Your argument about "divine" it irrelevant unless you translate the original word that Tertullian used."

Then why should i consider your quote of Tertullian relevant until you provide the original words that Tertullian used. For example, the word "for".

Are you aware of a single English Bible translation that ever uses the word "unending" regarding punishment of any sinners?

What is the original language word Tertullian used that corresponds to the word "unending"? Did Jesus use it? Does Scripture ever use it of the punishment of the wicked? If not, why not?

Wouldn't the word for "unending" have been relatively unambiguous as compared to AION or AIONION (eon or eonian) punishment?

If aionion were understood to mean eternal, why didn't Tertullian just say aionion punishment? Why did he feel the need to describe the fire with other words, namely "equally perpetual and unending"?

Is something "perpetual" necessarily "unending"? Did Tertullian understand the basic meaning of aionion to be "perpetual" & of indefinite duration? If "perpetual" meant "unending", why add "and unending"?

"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

“What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.” [De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX, Tertullian]

Quotes About Hell Fire from Christian Leaders

Thee Librarian · Oct 7, 2018

ClementofA said:
The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

"I understand it is hard to grasp for many, but for 1000 years there was no Bible available at all for the common people who had to rely on a corrupt clergy, however even the worst translations contain the universalist verses and show that "for ever" is not always endless. It's only for a few years now where all people have access to all translations and even the source texts in their original languages."

Blindly relying on a bunch of biased versions cloned by the pro ECT advocates boys club is worth as much as a piece of toilet paper. If atheists shelled out to have printed 100 versions saying "God is dead" would you accept that because the 100 outnumber what other versions say?

Since the translators all believed in endless punishment, what else would you expect, except that they all would mis-translate certain "hell" passages the same way? Obviously.

Dozens of English translations don't agree with those cloned by the endless tortures boys club.

Likewise the early church father Greek scholar universalists would have rejected your cloned excuses for translations. Better to call them paraphrases, interpretations or theologically driven opinions of what the originally inspired ancient language texts say.

Even your cloned theologically driven interpretative "versions" support universalism, which makes them self-contradictory, e.g.:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

What was the question?
I think the answer is "a bit"

Thee Librarian · Oct 7, 2018

ClementofA said:
Tertullian does not say anyone's punishment will be "unending", but the fire is "unending" and "divine", "a supply of incorruptibility".

Are you aware of a single English Bible translation that ever uses the word "unending" regarding punishment of any sinners?

What is the original language word Tertullian used that corresponds to the word "unending"? Did Jesus use it? Does Scripture ever use it of the punishment of the wicked? If not, why not?

Wouldn't the word for "unending" have been relatively unambiguous as compared to AION or AIONION (eon or eonian) punishment?

If aionion were understood to mean eternal, why didn't Tertullian just say aionion punishment? Why did he feel the need to describe the fire with other words, namely "equally perpetual and unending"?

Is something "perpetual" necessarily "unending"? Did Tertullian understand the basic meaning of aionion to be "perpetual" & of indefinite duration? If "perpetual" meant "unending", why add "and unending"?

"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

“What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.” [De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX, Tertullian] Quotes About Hell Fire from Christian Leaders

"Not subject to time" covers it,
but not in one word.

Der Alte · Oct 7, 2018

ClementofA said:
"Your argument about "divine" it irrelevant unless you translate the original word that Tertullian used."
Then why should i consider your quote of Tertullian relevant until you provide the original words that Tertullian used. For example, the word "for".
Are you aware of a single English Bible translation that ever uses the word "unending" regarding punishment of any sinners?
What is the original language word Tertullian used that corresponds to the word "unending"? Did Jesus use it? Does Scripture ever use it of the punishment of the wicked? If not, why not?
Wouldn't the word for "unending" have been relatively unambiguous as compared to AION or AIONION (eon or eonian) punishment?
If aionion were understood to mean eternal, why didn't Tertullian just say aionion punishment? Why did he feel the need to describe the fire with other words, namely "equally perpetual and unending"?
Is something "perpetual" necessarily "unending"? Did Tertullian understand the basic meaning of aionion to be "perpetual" & of indefinite duration? If "perpetual" meant "unending", why add "and unending"?
"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."
“What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.” [De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX, Tertullian]
Quotes About Hell Fire from Christian Leaders

All your specious objections are irrelevant since you quoted a large block of text, supposedly written by Tertullian, from one of your pet UR websites without identifying a single Greek or Latin word. You keep making the same meaningless objections about Tertullian and continue to ignore the context of the quote I posted.

Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"(Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13)

Unlike your post I quoted this directly from the ECF module in my Bible program. Two quotes from the same writer in the same work. Together these quotes prove that Tertullian understood that the punishment of the wicked was unending. Which word he used is irrelevant.

ClementofA · Oct 7, 2018

Der Alter said:
All your specious objections are irrelevant since you quoted a large block of text, supposedly written by Tertullian, from one of your pet UR websites without identifying a single Greek or Latin word. You keep making the same meaningless objections about Tertullian and continue to ignore the context of the quote I posted.

Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"(Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13)
Unlike your post I quoted this directly from the ECF module in my Bible program. Two quotes from the same writer in the same work. Together these quotes prove that Tertullian understood that the punishment of the wicked was unending. Which word he used is irrelevant.

Why are you still posting & relying on a single English translation after your comment:

"Your argument about "divine" it[sic] irrelevant unless you translate the original word that Tertullian used."

Why are still posting quotes from uninspired errant writings that are not Scripture after you remarked:

Der Alter said:
Irrelevant not scripture.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

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ClementofA · Oct 7, 2018

Der Alter said:
Tertullian understood that the punishment of the wicked was unending.

Was he God, infallible or inspired Scripture? Many others disagreed with him:

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, hell, punishment, doctrine) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf

Universalism...First 500 Years

Der Alte · Oct 8, 2018

ClementofA said:
Was he God, infallible or inspired Scripture? Many others disagreed with him:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, hell, punishment, doctrine) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
Universalism...First 500 Years

Argument by link. Are you incapable of participating in a discussion and expressing your views in your own words?

ClementofA · Oct 8, 2018

Der Alter said:
Argument by link. Are you incapable of participating in a discussion and expressing your views in your own words?

Were these not my own words:

Was he God, infallible or inspired Scripture? Many others disagreed with him:

Thee Librarian · Oct 10, 2018

ClementofA said:
The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment.

After this life, time does not exist. So there is no time aspect in the Spirit realm.
Man has always measured time by how things degrade or Entropy. The entropy stops here.

ClementofA · May 10, 2020

Thee Librarian said:
After this life, time does not exist. So there is no time aspect in the Spirit realm.
Man has always measured time by how things degrade or Entropy. The entropy stops here.

Do you have any Scripture to support the view that after "this life, time does not exist"?

ClementofA · May 11, 2020

redleghunter said:
Considering the Scriptures don’t teach salvation after Judgment Day, the burden of proof is on you.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

redleghunter · May 11, 2020

ClementofA said:
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

People were burned alive in the Law.

ClementofA · May 14, 2020

redleghunter said:
People were burned alive in the Law.

Can you provide Scripture support for that?

What relevance does your remark have with the passage i posted?

How would it change my points made if it is relevant to the passage?

ClementofA · May 28, 2020

Major1 said:
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV / 23 helpful votes
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mark 9:48 ESV / 23 helpful votes
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

The usual deceptive translations of Scripture, leading to bible contradictions such as with:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Could most modern translations be in error?

ClementofA · May 31, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
NONSENSE your mistaken again! (highlighted claim red emphasis mine in relation to JOHN 3:36). We are discussing JOHN 3:36 nearly every parrallel translation outside of the KJV translates JOHN 3:36 as "eternal life" or everlasting life or life everlasting (see previous parrallel translation section above in this post to JOHN 3:36 on the saved receiving eternal life and the unrepentant wicked not receiving everlasting life.

It's irrelevant how most translations translate anything. What matters is the truth, not majority opinion. If you think majority view equals truth, you'ld have to give up your SDA beliefs and become a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox instead. You'ld have to give up the SDA "soul sleep" doctrine & other SDA views which are a minority opinion.

Why do most translations say "eternal" instead of "eonian" etc at Jn.3:36? Because they want to sell to church goers & make money? Because it's the theological bias of the translators who are parroting one another? Because it's all part of the system to scare people going back to the "Holy Crusades", Inquisitionist torture chambers and Dark Ages? Because the translators, like most Christians, have not seriously researched biblical universalism & are just following their denomination's statement of faith?
How many are well informed of, & have studied, universalist & annihilationist arguments? Do many simply blindly accept what their pastor, priest, or denomination say? In the enlightened internet age is the belief in endless torments on the decline as many become annihilationists, universalists or hopeful universalists instead.

In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages. It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

LoveGodsWord said:
GREEK Eternal (αἰώνιος) life (ζωή)

BDAG Definition eternal.
αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 A.D.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I B.C.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.

Some other lexicons & scholars disagree with BDAG. For example:

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Why does BDAG ignore and leave out all those finite uses of aionios listed at the url above? Bias? Ignorance? Filthy lucre?

LoveGodsWord said:
So no dear friend. Can you see your error here? Near all parallel translation translate JOHN 3:36 as "eternal"(αἰώνιος) in context to life (ζωή) the meaning of αἰώνιος in applied to JOHN 3:36 (and 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9) is a period or age of unending duration; without end; context is to life the correct translation is shown in nearly every parrallel translation of JOHN 3:36 as shown in the previous section above. You simply wrong dear friend and spreading misinformation. This is only posted as a help and correction for you. I hope you can receive it in the Spirit it was given and be blessed.

Those are erroneous remarks as i've shown above here in this post, in my previous post & others re the same passage, namely Jn.3:36. See also these entire threads:

Could most modern translations be in error?

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

Could most modern translations be in error?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Thank You Jesus!

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