Could most modern translations be in error?

Der Alte · Sep 8, 2018

Oldmantook said:
Still waiting for your answer. Is you can't provide one, don't waste my time Der Alter.

Don't hold your breath. Typical evasive reply. I'm not here to play childish games but I will be watching your posts and pointing out the errors so that the unsuspecting are not deceived.

redleghunter · Sep 8, 2018

Oldmantook said:
You have presumed that there is no salvation after judgment. Prove it

Considering the Scriptures don’t teach salvation after Judgment Day, the burden of proof is on you. You are taking a well known Roman Catholic approach on “if the Scriptures are silent we can make it up.”

Hillsage · Sep 8, 2018

Oldmantook said:
Thanks for your answer. Yes God has provided the ability to not sin. God has given believers the choice out of obedience or disobedience to choose whether to sin or not. Adam & Eve chose. The Israelites chose. Believers choose. That is why the apostle Paul warned IF we are living according to the flesh - we will die. But IF we are putting to death the deeds of the body - we will live. (Rom 8:13).

Then it 'sounds' like we are in agreement.

1CO 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages

'Most' have no revelation of the mystery which God apparently has only given to 'some'. I'm thinking there is something wrong with 'their gospel' and 'preaching of Jesus'.

Pneuma3 · Sep 9, 2018

redleghunter said:
Considering the Scriptures don’t teach salvation after Judgment Day, the burden of proof is on you. You are taking a well known Roman Catholic approach on “if the Scriptures are silent we can make it up.”

Tell that to sodom

Ezek,16
53When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: 54That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. 55When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate. 56For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride, 57Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about. 58Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD.

The Covenant Remembered

59For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

60Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. 61Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. 62And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: 63That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

ClementofA · Sep 21, 2018

Oldmantook said:
‘If anyone supports the monstrous doctrine of apokatastasis [τὴν τερατώδη ἀποκατάστασιν], be it anathema.’

Why would anyone describe universalism as "monstrous"?

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Oldmantook · Sep 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
Don't hold your breath. Typical evasive reply. I'm not here to play childish games but I will be watching your posts and pointing out the errors so that the unsuspecting are not deceived.

Yes, a typical evasive reply by you. I find your responses to be evasive and boring hence my delay in replying to you. You wrote: "I do not know of any scripture which states that at some point the conquered enemies will be reconciled." To this I cited, Col 1:20 which declares that ALL THINGS will be reconciled to the Father. Thus far you have not addressed the meaning of ALL. All means all - not some, and not only those verses you cited. All enemies; not some enemies.

Oldmantook · Sep 22, 2018

redleghunter said:
Considering the Scriptures don’t teach salvation after Judgment Day, the burden of proof is on you. You are taking a well known Roman Catholic approach on “if the Scriptures are silent we can make it up.”

Quite the contrary. Origen and others believed in apokatastasis. Augustine whom the Roman Catholics revere, came on the scene later and who was a poor student of the Greek is responsible for the false doctrine that God punishes those in hell forever. How do you account for Col 1:20? How do you account for Phil 2:9-11?

ClementofA · Sep 22, 2018

Oldmantook said:
To this I cited, Col 1:20 which declares that ALL THINGS will be reconciled to the Father.

How are you reaching this conclusion from Col.1:20 which does not use the word "will":

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Der Alte · Sep 22, 2018

Oldmantook said:
begin

<OMT>Yes, a typical evasive reply by you. I find your responses to be evasive and boring hence my delay in replying to you. You wrote: "I do not know of any scripture which states that at some point the conquered enemies will be reconciled." To this I cited, Col 1:20 which declares that ALL THINGS will be reconciled to the Father. Thus far you have not addressed the meaning of ALL. All means all - not some, and not only those verses you cited. All enemies; not some enemies.<end>

end

Nonsense! Your misrepresented proof text does not say "all things will be reconciled to the father."

Colossians 1:20
(20) and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Jesus' mission was to reconcile all things but all things will not choose to be reconciled. Does all mean all in Matt 16:26

Luke 2:1
(1) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed
Matthew 16:26
(26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, [κόσμος/kosmos] and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
John 12:19
(19) The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world [κόσμος/kosmos] is gone after him.
John 14:17
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world [κόσμος/kosmos] cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Romans 1:8
(8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.[κόσμος/kosmos]
1 John 5:19
(19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world [κόσμος/kosmos] lieth in wickedness.

Can a person literally gain the "whole world?"
Did the "whole world" literally follow Jesus?
Can the entire world not receive the spirit of truth?
Can the "whole world" literally not receive Jesus?
Was the faith of the Roman Christians literally spoken of throughout the "whole world?"
Did Caesar literally tax the entire world?
Did the entire world lie in wickedness?
There is a word which describes how "world" is used in all these verses.

Der Alte · Sep 22, 2018

Oldmantook said:
begin

<OMT>Quite the contrary. Origen and others believed in apokatastasis. Augustine whom the Roman Catholics revere, came on the scene later and who was a poor student of the Greek is responsible for the false doctrine that God punishes those in hell forever. How do you account for Col 1:20? How do you account for Phil 2:9-11?<end>

end

Nonsense! I guess UR-ites think that if they repeat these false claims often enough it will somehow become the truth.
.....Zero evidence for Origen. Zero evidence for "others". Zero evidence for Augustine. I have proved many times with irrefutable evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud that before and during the time of Jesus the Jews, in Israel, believed in a place of eternal, everlasting, endless fiery punishment for the wicked and they called the place both sheol and Gehinnom. People who are interested in the truth can look up those resources online and verify this. Here is some historical evidence from the early church fathers.
Ignatius of Antioch

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
(Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
(Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
 (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

ClementofA · Sep 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
Colossians 1:20
(20) and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Jesus' mission was to reconcile all things but all things will not choose to be reconciled.

Nowhere does Scripture ever say anyone will never be reconciled.

It wasn't just Jesus' mission to create all. He actually did create all:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.

Which is parallel to the "all" by Him to be reconciled:

20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

If it were Jesus mission to reconcile ALL to Himself at the time Paul wrote Col.1:16,20, then that includes all the created of v.16, even these demonic beings:

Eph.6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon
of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

“…Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to “reconcile to himself all things”? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony.”

“…The “all things” of verse 20 is as extensive as the “all things” of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill “the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure”—“to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ” (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind’s depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God.”
Reconciliation: The Heart of God's Grand Plan for Creation | Ambassador of Reconciliation

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)…(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Der Alte · Sep 22, 2018

…..According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them. Concerning “eternal punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.

ClementofA · Sep 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
...

No church creed until around at least about 500 A.D. condemned either the belief in eventual universalism or the ultimate salvation of all fallen angelic beings. Origen, Gregory Nyssa, Jerome, St Isaac the Syrian & other church fathers were among those who proclaimed the final universal reconciliation of all created beings.Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Jerome, Diodorus of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia & the Ambrosiaster writing are included, with qualifications, by the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Apocatastasis, which states the doctrine was not formally condemned until 543 AD. “The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.” Thereafter followed the dark ages of the next 1000-1400 years, including Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of opposers & their writings, denial of freedoms such as freedom of religion & freedom of speech. Do we really want to follow the “Christian traditions” that bore that fruit?

Apocatastasis: “A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls.” newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

"The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible. — Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11."

Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

Here we have an Epistle of Barnabas' (70-135 AD) remark in the context of an eschatological 8th day Sabbath rest, when wickedness ceases to exist, all things are made new & God will be "giving rest to all things":

15:7-8 Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. The Epistle of Barnabas (translation Roberts-Donaldson)

The Epistle of Barnabas there speaks of wickedness, not the wicked, ceasing to exist.

That epistle was regarded quite highly in the early church, especially in Alexandria by ClementA & Origen. It seems not to have been known in other regions till quite a bit later & scholars tend to see Egypt as its place of origin. All this adds weight to the view that it supports universalism.

Der Alter said:
According to most of the early church fathers.

Did you forget to finish your thought? As it stands that sentence doesn't say anything.

Furthermore, you quoted a mere 7 "church fathers", which is not "most" of them.

Moreover, why quote "church fathers" when you consider them irrelevant & uninspired:

Der Alter said:
Irrelevant not scripture.

Additionally, quoting English mistranslations of Greek (Latin etc) words that are a point of debate in the whole universalism vs endless torturism discussion does not prove that the church fathers you quoted mis-translations of were opposed to universalism. As Patristic scholar Illaria Ramelli said:

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them...an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822)." (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

Der Alter said:
Clement [ 30-100] The First Epistle to the Corinthians.
Chap. XI. — Continuation. Lot.
On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture.

Nothing there affirms endless punishment or denies universal salvation.

This re Clement of Rome (d. ca 99 AD) is interesting:

"It might be worth noting that during the 4th century spat over universal salvation between the Latin super-Fathers Jerome and Rufinius, Ruf used to remind Jerome that they both still acknowledged Clement of Rome (2nd or 3rd pope) was a Christian universalist. It’s hard to say whether they’re doing so thanks to some spurious epistles from him, or whether it was from writing still extant in their day." The Early Church Father issue

as well as:

"In the Ethiopic rescension of chapter 14 (found in the Ethiopic editions of the Pseudo-Clementines, specifically The Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the Dead), Jesus and Peter discuss the final salvation of sinners after a period of torments. Jesus obesrves (140ra) that sinners will not repent if the threat of eternal damnation is removed. But God and Christ will have compassion for all their creatures (140rb) and Jesus will destroy the devil and punish sinners (140vb-141vb). But he adds to Peter, “You will have no more mercy on sinners than I do, for I was crucified because of them, in order to obtain mercy for them from my Father.” The Lord will therefore give each of them “life, glory, and kingdom without end”, since Jesus will interceded for them. But this outcome must not be made known, to avoid an upsurge in sin (141vb-142vb). Peter reports this dialogue of his to Clement (of Rome, 2nd or 3rd Roman pope), recommending secrecy in turn, since the doctrine might foment sin in immature people."Does "Apocalypse of Peter" show UR in the Early Church?

Der Alter said:
Tatian’s [a.d. 110-172.] Address to the Greeks. Chap. XIII. — Theory of the Soul’s Immortality.
The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal.37 Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.

Nothing there supports endless punishment, whether or torments or annihilation. So it is perfectly in harmony with universalism.

Der Alter said:
Clement of Alexandria [a.d. 153-193-217.] Exhortation to the Heathen. Chap X
For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.

Nothing there supports endless punishment, whether or torments or annihilation. So it is perfectly in harmony with universalism. The "remorse" spoken of may be ungodly sorrow like that sorrow a criminal experiences when caught & punished, not the "godly remorse" that worketh - repentance - that Paul refers to:

2 Cor.7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Therefore, in light of the following, Clement of Alexandria, like his pupil Oregon, should be considered a universalist.

"CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150-220 A.D.) likewise has sounded these words: “The Lord, [says John in his First Epistle,] is a propitiation, ‘not for our sins only,’ that is, of the faithful, ‘but also for the whole world.’ Therefore He indeed saves all; but some as converted by punishments, others by voluntary submission, thus obtaining the honour and dignity, that ‘to Him every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,’ that is [to say,] angels, and men, and souls who departed this life before His coming into the world."

That quote is "...from a fragment of Clement's lost work Hypotyposeis preserved in Latin in the later writer Cassiodorus (ca 485- ca 585)...This passage is quite interesting, since Origen and Origen's followers (and many later universalists) often cited the teaching of Philippians 2" as "implying universal salvation by Christ" (The Devil's Redemption: A New History and Interpretation of Christian Universalism – June 5, 2018, by Michael J. McClymond, p.242-243).

The Sacred Writings of Clement of Alexandria By Clement of Alexandria:

The Sacred Writings of Clement of Alexandria

"God does not take vengeance, which is the requital of evil for evil, but chastises for the benefit of the chastised (Stromata 7.16)

"To Him is placed in subjection all the host of angels and gods; He, the paternal Word, exhibiting a the holy administration for Him who put [all] in subjection to Him.

"Wherefore also all men are His; some through knowledge, and others not yet so; and some as friends, some as faithful servants, some as servants merely. ....

"And how is He Saviour and Lord, if not the Saviour and Lord of all? But He is the Saviour of those who have believed, because of their wishing to know; and the Lord of those who have not believed, till, being enabled to confess him, they obtain the peculiar and appropriate boon which comes by Him. (Stromata 7.2)

The Universalists: Clement of Alexandria : ChristianUniversalism

“For all things are ordered both universally and in particular by the Lord of the universe, with a view to the salvation of the universe. But needful corrections, by the goodness of the great, overseeing judge, through the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final judgment, compel even those who have become more callous to repent.”

“So he saves all; but some he converts by penalties, others who follow him of their own will, and in accordance with the worthiness of his honor, that every knee may be bent to him of celestial, terrestrial and infernal things (Phil. 2:10), that is angels, men, and souls who before his advent migrated from this mortal life.”

“For there are partial corrections (padeiai) which are called chastisements (kolasis), which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish (timoria) for punishment (timoria) is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually.” (Strom, VII, ii; Pedag. I, 8; on I John ii, 2)

...

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf

Universalism...First 500 Years

ClementofA · Sep 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
…..According to the Jewish Encyclopedia,

Der Alter said:
You keep waffling on many things here DA. Everyone reading can see it.
If scripture is the word of God and those scriptures tell us Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world who else but God is telling you Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? Thus every verse I quoted is a quote from God.
So again I will ask you what greater testimony do you need before you will believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world? <end>
No waffles I prefer pancakes. Do you believe that,

“the whole world is under the control of the evil one” 1 John 5:19
“Satan, who leads the whole world astray” Revelation 12:9
“The whole world … followed the beast” Revelation 13:3
“Diana …, whom all Asia and the world worships.” Acts of the apostles 19:27
Satan is “the god of this world.” 2 Corinthians 4:4

Are you now a Calvinist & you believe Jesus being the Savior of the world means only the lucky ones God determined to be the elect? Does Jn.1:29 mean by "world" only some? Do you believe in the limited atonement theory?

Der Alter said:
What we still do not have is any Bible writer directly quoting God or Jesus saying that all mankind good and bad, will be saved.

God or Jesus? God is Jesus. And His inspired Scriptures have made it clear all will be saved (Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).

Der Alter said:
But here is what Jesus Himself says,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these [on the left] shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Compare:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Clearly the Greek/Hebrew words mistranslated "everlasting", "eternal" & "forever" in pro endless hell biased translations do not always mean what they seem to mean, e.g.:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo.21:6)

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/l
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

Der Alter said:
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

Lame. Nothing there says anyone will suffer endless tortures. Jesus could have easily expressed such a thought, if that was His belief. Since He never does, He doesn't believe such a thing. See also:

Early church opposition to endless hell

Der Alter said:
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Der Alter said:
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

Der Alter said:
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.

Der Alter said:
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Der Alter said:
.....Unlike the UR crowd I consider Jesus to be the standard not Paul or John or other NT writers. I interpret the writings of Paul et al. to agree with what Jesus said. On the other hand UR-ites reinterpret the words of Jesus so that they do not mean what they literally say in order to make them agree with the UR interpretation of Paul et al.

All Scripture is inspired of God. Paul is in harmony with what the 4 Gospels & Jesus say about the Lord being the Savior of the world, of all mankind. For Paul's inspired words of truth are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

---

Oldmantook · Sep 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
<OMT>Yes, a typical evasive reply by you. I find your responses to be evasive and boring hence my delay in replying to you. You wrote: "I do not know of any scripture which states that at some point the conquered enemies will be reconciled." To this I cited, Col 1:20 which declares that ALL THINGS will be reconciled to the Father. Thus far you have not addressed the meaning of ALL. All means all - not some, and not only those verses you cited. All enemies; not some enemies.<end>
Nonsense! Your misrepresented proof text does not say "all things will be reconciled to the father."

Colossians 1:20
(20) and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Jesus' mission was to reconcile all things but all things will not choose to be reconciled. Does all mean all in Matt 16:26

Luke 2:1
(1) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed
Matthew 16:26
(26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, [κόσμος/kosmos] and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
John 12:19
(19) The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world [κόσμος/kosmos] is gone after him.
John 14:17
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world [κόσμος/kosmos] cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Romans 1:8
(8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.[κόσμος/kosmos]
1 John 5:19
(19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world [κόσμος/kosmos] lieth in wickedness.
Can a person literally gain the "whole world?"
Did the "whole world" literally follow Jesus?
Can the entire world not receive the spirit of truth?
Can the "whole world" literally not receive Jesus?
Was the faith of the Roman Christians literally spoken of throughout the "whole world?"
Did Caesar literally tax the entire world?
Did the entire world lie in wickedness?
There is a word which describes how "world" is used in all these verses.

I find your claim to be quite weak. Just what do you suppose ALL means?? According to your view, you would prefer to change the plain meaning of a word and instead redefine all to mean only some. In that respect you excel in eisegeting the text instead of exegeting it. Furthermore, to be accurate, the Greek word for "reconcile" in Col 1:20 is in the aorist tense. Thus the one-time atonement of Christ has reconciled all - not some - to the Father. In other words, it is a fait accompli.
However you choose to ignore the plain meaning of this verse which states the purpose of the atonement was the reconciliation of all and force it to apply to only some. According to your belief, despite God being omnipotent and having RECONCILED ALL to Him - only some, in fact a small minority of persons will be reconciled. According to your view, Jesus' mission in reality is an abysmal failure.

Furthermore, you claim that "all things will not choose to be reconciled." If Jesus has already reconciled all things (aorist in Col 1:20) how can you make such a claim? Reconciliation has already been accomplished so it is just a matter of time before all bow down and confess Jesus as Lord. Which is why you also fail to account for and explain away Phil 2:10 which states "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,"

Lastly, I find your attempt to conflate "all" and the "whole world" to be quite amusing and full of nonsense. Your attempt to conflate the two amounts to comparing apples and oranges. Of course, not all gain the whole world. Of course, not all the whole world follows Jesus. Of Caesar did not literally tax the whole world. However, Col 1:20 does indeed declare that the Father has RECONCILED ALL to himself. The sheer folly of your argumentation is exposed by the fact that just because you cite passages that the "whole world" does not mean "all," that does not in itself negate that Col 1:20 does indeed mean "all."

Oldmantook · Sep 22, 2018

Der Alter said:
<OMT>Quite the contrary. Origen and others believed in apokatastasis. Augustine whom the Roman Catholics revere, came on the scene later and who was a poor student of the Greek is responsible for the false doctrine that God punishes those in hell forever. How do you account for Col 1:20? How do you account for Phil 2:9-11?<end>
Nonsense! I guess UR-ites think that if they repeat these false claims often enough it will somehow become the truth.
.....Zero evidence for Origen. Zero evidence for "others". Zero evidence for Augustine. I have proved many times with irrefutable evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud that before and during the time of Jesus the Jews, in Israel, believed in a place of eternal, everlasting, endless fiery punishment for the wicked and they called the place both sheol and Gehinnom. People who are interested in the truth can look up those resources online and verify this. Here is some historical evidence from the early church fathers.
Ignatius of Antioch

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
(Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
(Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
 (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

Der Alter, you have the penchant for cutting and pasting which is fine but you commit great error in taking your citations at face value without even bothering to investigate whether the English translations are accurate quotes.
I won't go through all the passages but will simply cite one example which proves my point in your error. For example, you quoted from The Martyrdom of Polycarp where the word for "eternal" is αιωνιον. As you are well aware we have debated the meaning of aionion. I could very well turn around and use the passage you quoted to state that it means age-lasting and not eternal. Thus I can easily claim that the quotations you cited do not refer to eternal as you believe but rather support my claim that they mean age-lasting/during instead.

ClementofA · Oct 2, 2018

"Faithful translation must ever seek to use neutral expressions in representing the Original; not renderings which are of an interpretative nature. Hence, it follows that aionion must not be translated as "everlasting," but simply, somehow, according to the sense of "durative" (i.e., "of the duration"), even if it should be the judgment of an interpreter that "of endless duration" is its referential meaning, in specific case. Since "durative" would be an awkward rendering, the best solution is simply to transliterate aionion, in anglicized form, by the English word "eonian." Insofar as translation is concerned, however, which simply represents what the word says, not that to which it refers, "eonian" should not be understood as "pertain ing to period of time," nor to the notion of endlessness, but simply as, "pertaining to an [inherently unspecified] duration of time."

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Blasphemy+of+the+Spirit.pdf

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 3, 2018

Could most modern translations be in error?

ABSOLUTELY!

Der Alte · Oct 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
begin

<Clem>"Faithful translation must ever seek to use neutral expressions in representing the Original; not renderings which are of an interpretative nature. Hence, it follows that aionion must not be translated as "everlasting," but simply, somehow, according to the sense of "durative" (i.e., "of the duration"), even if it should be the judgment of an interpreter that "of endless duration" is its referential meaning, in specific case. Since "durative" would be an awkward rendering, the best solution is simply to transliterate aionion, in anglicized form, by the English word "eonian." Insofar as translation is concerned, however, which simply represents what the word says, not that to which it refers, "eonian" should not be understood as "pertain ing to period of time," nor to the notion of endlessness, but simply as, "pertaining to an [inherently unspecified] duration of time."
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Blasphemy+of+the+Spirit.pdf[<end>

end

What could possibly be the value of an anonymous writing online?

Der Alte · Oct 4, 2018

Oldmantook said:
begin

<OMT>Der Alter, you have the penchant for cutting and pasting which is fine but you commit great error in taking your citations at face value without even bothering to investigate whether the English translations are accurate quotes.
I won't go through all the passages but will simply cite one example which proves my point in your error. For example, you quoted from The Martyrdom of Polycarp where the word for "eternal" is αιωνιον. As you are well aware we have debated the meaning of aionion. I could very well turn around and use the passage you quoted to state that it means age-lasting and not eternal. Thus I can easily claim that the quotations you cited do not refer to eternal as you believe but rather support my claim that they mean age-lasting/during instead.<end>

end

In the context of the other ECF I quoted I doubt you can make a convincing case that Polycarp meant "age long" or some such nonsense. I have found it to be very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond. Had you done so you might have noticed that I didn't quote passages simply because they contained the word "eternal" but chose passages where "eternal" was reinforced by other adjectives. For example,

Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).

Now let us review Polycarp again.

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
(Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

I wonder how unrepentant sinners will feel toward God after they have spent some amount of time in "eternal and unquenchable fire" and they somehow escape?

Could most modern translations be in error?

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Thank You Jesus!

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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